The Sack of Constantinople

[bobzills]

You’re seriously telling us that you think that the “Latins” might one day again sack Constantinople, profane its churches and kill and rob thousands of its Christian citizens?
I guess that shows us what dwelling on this incident does to someone’s mind and heart.

Well, have you read anything at all about Croatia and World War II? There have been several allegations about how Serbian Orthodox were killed by Catholic Ustase under Pavelic, and how people in the Vatican helped Pavelic escape at the end of the war. There was a concentration camp at Jasenovac, where many Orthodox were supposedly tortured and killed by an Ustase Franciscan Friar, Miroslav Filipovac. And there is the story concerning the Orthodox Church at Glina, where on August 3, 1941, hundreds of Serbian Orthodox were killed in their Church by the Catholic Ustase gangs?
srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/herberovic.html
srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/Glina-intro.html
So, if these reports are true, then it would mean that this hostility did not really stop 800 years ago?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Saint Josaphat Kuntsevich, pray for us!!

http://blog.ancient-future.net/uploaded_images/Saint-Josaphat-750806.jpg

Yep, that’s the one. The SSPX like him too.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

IIRC most of this material was gathered at various times from various parts of the far-flung Venetian empire which they had conquered from the Moslems, and were from churches and other buildings which had previously been de-consecrated, destroyed or were under threat of destruction by the Moslems. In case anyone was inferring that all of the “Greek” material in St Mark’s was simply looted from Constantinople.

Maybe this has “misled” them:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Veneza38.jpg

These are called the Greek Horses. Why?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The-tetrarchs.jpg

the missing foot (look on the far right) was found in Constantinople. How’d it get there.

St. Mark’s relics are there, when he was buried in Alexandria, our first pope.

There is a mosaic on this Venetian basilica showing how the sailors covered the body relics with a layer of pork. Since Muslims are not allowed to touch pork, this action was done to prevent Muslim intervention in the relics.

Just so the Greeks know they’re not the only ones with problems with Venetians. EO and OO in Alexandria would like him all back.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Swiftly moving past the needlessly sarcastic comment about “pope crocodile tears”…

You have brought this issue up before and what you seem to fail to see or understand is that the creation of “Latin Patriarchates” for Latins is no different than what the Greeks did in creating a NEW GO patriarchate in Alexandria or Jerusalem or Antioch when the men who held THOSE titles went non-Chalcedonian.

It is a distinction without a difference.

If one was bad, they both were.

I’ll confine my post to one difference: the EO patriarchs were just a continuation of the pentarchy as it was before according to the EO.

Now much is made that the pope of Rome didn’t recognize the canons of the Ecumenical Councils elevating Constantinople to second place. It is said that that means she didn’t have that place. But along comes 1204, and a Latin toady is put in place and voila, he has second place. Then Florence came along THEN the Greek was given the same second place, and thus it remains in the Latin church (I’ve heard enough Uki uniate complaints on this). That’s just the tip of the iceberg on difference.

On the tears: much is made that pope deplored the Crusaders, blah blah blah. By the pope, I mean the one at the time, not for instance JP II of blessed memory.

In Arabic we have a story: a hunter went out in the early morning, and his eyes were tearing from the cold. One animal said, “Don’t worry, he won’t shoot! Look! He’s crying.” The other said, “Watch what his hands on the gun are doing, not what his eyes are doing.”

Just watchin’ what the hands are doing.

 

[bobzills]

Yep, that’s the one. The SSPX like him too.

If you are given conflicting stories, how would a person know what about the saint is true and what about him is exaggerated or not true. Here is the Catholic side:
newadvent.org/cathen/08503b.htm

 

[paarsurrey]

We are not Jews or Muslims who take an “eye for an eye” perspective.

Hi

I think “eye for an eye” teachings is of the Judaism.

Quran/Islam/Muhammad give us following teachings:

[2:179] O ye who believe! equitable retaliation in the matter of the slain is prescribed for you; the free man for the free man, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But for him who is granted any remission by his injured brother, pursuing the matter for the realization of the blood-money shall be done with fairness, and the murderer shall pay him the blood-money in a handsome manner. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. And whoso transgresses thereafter, for him there shall be a grievous punishment.
[2:180] And there is life for you in the law of retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may enjoy security.

[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers.
[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.
Unquote

Thanks

 

[Mickey]

Actually it is charitable. Perhaps when they get over something that happened 800 years ago they will be able to grow as people.

Yeah right.You say, “Get over it”.

I expected that from you.

 

[LSK]

What this thread, and all the replies and nasty remarks, has proven to me is that the Catholic doctrine on Original Sin is Truth.

 

[Mickey]

Biblically speaking, they are the same thing, brother. It is a hard cross to bear - agreed - but we as Christians are called to a greater standard, wouldn’t you agree?

Wrong, brother.
After the sack there were other incidents thereafter that I will not mention as to not go off topic or start an argument of animosity. However, the Orthodox watched very closely the fate of the Eastern Catholics. Rome promised them they could adhere to their “Orthodox” rituals, customs, traditions, and theology. Then Rome proceeded to thoroughly Latinize them. I suppose it was a possibility at one time that the Eastern Catholics were thought of as a bridge for unity. But that dream has passed. I cannot blame the Orthodox for feeling that they would be thoroughly Latinized like their Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters. There was a time, as an Eastern Catholic, that I felt I was in the Church that was the bridge. I believed that the Eastern Catholics were the example of what the Church was before the schism. But this is a fallacy. Before the schism, the Church was one. Before the schism there was no supreme pontiff. Before the schism there was no papal infallibility. Before the schism there was no purgatory. Before the schism there was no Immaculate conception. So I needed to re-evaluate my thinking. And alas, I truly found the Church that existed before the schism–and it was not the Eastern or Latin Catholic Church.

But I digress. Can you blame the Orthodox for not trusting the Latins my brother Marduk. They feel they will be swallowed up!

They can forgive and love their Latin brothers and sisters–but how can they ever trust them?

 

[Mickey]

What this thread, and all the replies and nasty remarks, has proven to me is that the Catholic doctrine on Original Sin is Truth.

 

[Mickey]

What? When did this one egregious incident become a “habit” which was repeated and then forgiven over and over again?

Start reading your history.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is no more a tenet of faith for Orthodox than the Crusades are for Catholics…

Oh, but it is, in the version of Orthodoxy we see in here. The presentation many, if not most, EO posters in here make of Orthodoxy overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that the single most important thing to you is hatred of the Catholic Church. Deny it as you will, nothing could be more obvious. Clearly, some EO have passed this hatred down from generation to generation, and have developed historical underpinnings for it.

Your vision of your former earthly empire is precious to you, and you would re-establish it again today if you could. If you had it back, Catholicism would not fare well under it because of your intolerance, and the ongoing development of a Church/state alliance with the increasingly oppressive neo-KGB government in Russia, amply demonstrates that.

In order to justify your heart’s desire to suppress Catholicism, you need supporting myths; and this sack of Constantinople business is part of that. A tawdry conflict between two sets of treacherous outlaws, which is what it really was, you elevate into a holy crusade, with which some of you have evidently tainted the minds of Orthodox children for a thousand years. It’s like the “Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys” nonsense the Islamic militants teach their children. Your version of the sack of Constantinople is your “Horst Wessel Song”.

Under your particular version of Orthodoxy, it is indeed a central tenet of your “religion”, if not your faith.

I wish to make abundantly clear that I do not tar all Orthodox with this brush. I very much doubt that what we see on here is truly representative of Orthodoxy, generally, any more than the SSPV is representative of Catholicism. If one looks at the actions and words of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the words of most EO posters on here, one would not even think you held the same religion. I don’t much think you do.

 

[Mickey]

Oh, but it is, in the version of Orthodoxy we see in here. The presentation many, if not most, EO posters in here make of Orthodoxy overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that the single most important thing to you is hatred of the Catholic Church. Deny it as you will, nothing could be more obvious. Clearly, some EO have passed this hatred down from generation to generation, and have developed historical underpinnings for it.

I am thinking that most of this is in your imagination.

Your vision of your former earthly empire is precious to you, and you would re-establish it again today if you could. If you had it back, Catholicism would not fare well under it because of your intolerance, and the ongoing development of a Church/state alliance with the increasingly oppressive neo-KGB government in Russia, amply demonstrates that.

Now **that **is uncharitable.

In order to justify your heart’s desire to suppress Catholicism, you need supporting myths; and this sack of Constantinople business is part of that.

This anger and animosity is not necessary.

A tawdry conflict between two sets of treacherous outlaws, which is what it really was, you elevate into a holy crusade, with which some of you have evidently tainted the minds of Orthodox children for a thousand years.

Tainting the minds of children?!? Lord have mercy!

It’s like the “Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys” nonsense the Islamic militants teach their children. Your version of the sack of Constantinople is your “Horst Wessel Song”.

Now you are completely out of control.

I wish to make abundantly clear that I do not tar all Orthodox with this brush.

I think your picture of Holy Orthodoxy is abundantly clear. And I am saddened to read this post. :crying:

 

[Ridgerunner]

Nice try, Mickey, but no cigar.

I was, as you know, speaking ONLY of the “Attack Orthodox” stuff we see on here. I made that clear but, of course, you ignored it. AS I SAID, I doubt what we see on here really represents Orthodoxy, any more than Jack Chick represents Protestantism generally or than the SSPV represents Catholicism.

 

[Mickey]

Nice try, Mickey, but no cigar.

I was, as you know, speaking ONLY of the “Attack Orthodox” stuff we see on here.

I am not searching for cigars.

Regardless of who you were attempting to direct your attack—the post was quite unfortunate.

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to jesus Christ!

Hello Ridge,

Oh, but it is, in the version of Orthodoxy we see in here. The presentation many, if not most, EO posters in here make of Orthodoxy overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that the single most important thing to you is hatred of the Catholic Church.

This is a red herring.

Discussing the facts about the seige, conquest, looting, burning, dismantling and occupation of Constantinople for 74 years happens to be the topic of this thread. If you have anything factual to add to the discussion I would be interested in it.

But trying to use this thread as “proof” that Orthodox hate Catholicism is really incorrect, it does not follow. Please don’t project such a generalization, I know you to be capable of much greater work here.

For the record, I am not an anti-Catholic. I have far too many relatives and friends, plus history with the church to think that way. I am opposed to ultramontanism, and it’s negative effects on the Body of Christ.

 

[East_and_West]

Yeah right.You say, “Get over it”.

I expected that from you.

Getting over it would be the mature thing to do. Dwelling on something that happened between people who are not alive today, and behaving as if you are personally injured byt it is not mature.

 

[Mickey]

Getting over it would be the mature thing to do.

…as stated by the model of maturity.

We forgive–but we will never forget.

 

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hi Petergee,

If someone calls himself a Catholic and has beliefs contrary to the doctrines of the Catholic Church,

Meaning…ROMAN Catholic church?

…he should be called to account for it. Being an Eastern Catholic does not excuse him from this.

Is that the definition of church unity? Is that what you really mean? An Eastern Catholic is not really Catholic until they "rather conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman church, their mother," ?

When you say we should be united as one church, is that what you expect of us? Conversion to your theology and praxis? To be admonished and berated like your Eastern Catholics here?

I thought the thread was started to ask why (some) EOs obsess endlessly about this incident …

We give you the answers to your question and you complain.

I guess that there will be no satisfying you then.

 

[East_and_West]

…as stated by the model of maturity.

We forgive–but we will never forget.

“THAT was not charitable”, to quote a member of these forums.