The scientific documentation of miracles

[CSN]

I am a big believer in miracles. In their existence, their veracity, and ultimately, their power to convert…

I note that there’s a tendency to brush them off, saying they are not important to the faith. I entirely disagree. To me, miracles are the single most convincing reason believe in the existence of God in general, and in the truth of the Catholic Church in particular (because I hold that despite the claims of miracles of every religion, only the Catholic Church has medically documented, scientifically documented inexplicable phenomena that have occurred in its name).

Having said the foregoing, I have at times looked for the medical journals or other scientific documents that have supposedly discussed experiments conducted on various relics, etc.

For example, I read that the World Health Organization commissioned scientists to study the Eucharistic Miracle at Lanciano. Also, the panel of doctors at Lourdes would (I presume) have published some kind of medical reports.

In the end, I have a question - does anyone have copies of such documents ? Like copies of medical journal articles or the official report to the WHO (etc.) ?

I am asking this because an atheist friend of mine said that he would seriously consider these things with an open mind, provided that I give him such firsthand evidence.

Thanks in advance…

 

[script77]

Hi ya.

I hope you find the documents, l’d like to see them also.

lt can be difficult a challenge, dealing with an atheist when it comes to proving something to them about the Christian faith.

When some people don’t want to believe, they just don’t.

Remember the people who asked Jesus to come down from the Cross on Calvary for them to believe He was the Son of God?
Well, remember that they previously had seen his miracles first hand and still didn’t believe. Even if Jesus had come down at their request, they would probably have suggested that the nails were a fake, or something stupid.

Hence Jesus says, ‘‘Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet believe’’.

Nonetheless, please press on in your quest to help turn the atheist around. l hope that is his/her true intention, to believe if proof is provided.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Lucas3]

I’m really interested in this too. I am a medical doctor, and until last year, was an evangelical Christian with a very large interest in the teaching of people like Kenneth Copeland.

The problem with many of the ‘miracles’ proclaimed in evangelical circles is that there is no objective proof. many of the conditions where people see improvements are of subjective symptoms, rather than objective, medical diseases. This, obviously, is quite different from the objective miracles written about in the New Testament.

I haven’t looked into it, but my understanding is that, at Lourdes, the ‘miracles’ are tested by panels of doctors. If there really is no explanation except for divine intervention, it’s known as a miracle. Otherwise it’s not, even if the person has benefitted enormously. I look forward to reading further posts on this.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

You can see great books here, but I don’t think it has much of the scientific documentation amazon.com/Eucharistic-Miracles-Joan-Carroll-Cruz/dp/0895553031
You can go to vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?ling=eng&res=1440x900 and see what you find out there or contact them and see where you go to get copies of the vatican medical commission reports of miracles.
You might ask him to look at my website heavensmessengers.org/ and go to the page - inherit eternal life. There’s some great proofs there.
In the end we must receive the gift of faith from God to believe much of what the church teaches. The use of reason can help us to believe in God and know a bit about him but it’s not enough.
If he is open slip him a book about Fatima and offer prayers and sacrifices for him- that will help most.
I had 100 masses offered for my eternal life page many years ago that it bear fruit so you never know what may happen if he reads it. Good luck and God bless.

 

[wcknight]

Miracles have been key in getting folks to believe. They are what makes Christianity more credible than other religions. The fact that there have been many great miracle workers in the Catholic Church is what separates it from all the want-to-bes.

I’d love to see some first hand evidence or documentation of approved miracles, but the fact that there have been so many eyewitness accounts makes the necessity to see all the documentation superfluous.

I’m sure there have been some hoaxes, but given the shear number of accounts from every century, it becomes impossible to discount them all. Jesus perfromed a lot of miracle, but his followers have performed many, many more, with His help of course.

St. Padre Pio in first half of the last century (up until 1960s) was the last great miracle worker, who will be next ??

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I’m trying to get a copy of the miracle. I actually communicated with the person who did the scientific study. The issue that I am having is that I don’t understand Italian and can’t write it well or read it. Otherwise, I would send him a letter in Italian requesting a copy of the study (which he seemed glad to provide). I am also very busy - otherwise I might pay a professional Italian translater to translate the document for me. I am also highly interested in sending the document to interested friends.

On this forum, I communicated with a person who I think lives in Italy and knows of the company that published it and might be interested in translating the letter/article or obtaining it. I can tell him that there is another person interested in this miracle other than myself if you would like it sooner than I get around to doing this and maybe you might communicate with him.

P.S. In my investigations, I found out that the author of the study knows of no WHO organization involvement in the miracle. I called the WHO and searched their website and no one there or on the website knows of any involvement. So this seems like a spurious claim to me. Many claims have been spurious regarding the Lanciano miracle, including claims written in books. In fact, the person I initially contacted as a colleague of the doctor was quoted in a book as having an involvement with the Lanciano miracle that he actually did not have!!

Summary of my knowledge on the miracle:

In A.D. 700 “at the monastery of St. Loginus in Lanciano, Italy, a priest from the Order of St. Basil was celebrating Mass. Having doubted the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the priest saw, during the consecration, the bread miraculously transfored into a circle of flesh and the wine appear as bright as fresh blood. Eventually, the liquefied blood turned into five pellets of various sizes and shapes. When the local archbishop later weighed the pellets, it was discovered that one nugget weighed the same as all five together, two as much as any three, and the smallest as much as the largest. In February of 1574, another test was done on the miraculous blood pellets. Again, any one of the pellets weighed along equaled the weight of all five pellets together. In 1970, further tests were made on the body and blood of Jesus. Analysis has proved that the bread and wine contain characteristics of real human flesh and blood. Both belonged to the same blood type, AB. Eventually the Franciscans rebuilt the church that houses the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano. It is now called the Church of St. Francis (Michael Freze, S.F.O. Voices, Visions, and Apparitions) (concernedcatholics.org - This website is for sale! - obedience chastity virginity confession Eucharist Holy Communion last rites sacrament marriage Jesus Resources and Information.)”

This miracle was first studied scientifically in 1970-1971 by Dr. Edoardo Linoli, professor of anatomy, pathological histology, chemistry and clinical microsocpy, and the former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, published in pub med: Quad Sclavo Digan. 1971. Sep; 7(3): 661-74. Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729?ordinalpos=28&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
(Pubmed is a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health that includes over 18 million citations from MEDLINE and other life science journals for biomedical articles back to the 1950s. PubMed includes links to full text articles and other related resources)

Findings:
"* The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.

• The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
• The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
• In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
• The Flesh is a “HEART” complete in its essential structure.
• The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB(Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin)
• In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteric make-up of the fresh normal blood.
• In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
• The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheri and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Note - above in the summary I have provided you a link to an actual scientific side recording the study of the miracle.

 

[CSN]

Hi ya.

I hope you find the documents, l’d like to see them also.

lt can be difficult a challenge, dealing with an atheist when it comes to proving something to them about the Christian faith.

When some people don’t want to believe, they just don’t.

Remember the people who asked Jesus to come down from the Cross on Calvary for them to believe He was the Son of God?
Well, remember that they previously had seen his miracles first hand and still didn’t believe. Even if Jesus had come down at their request, they would probably have suggested that the nails were a fake, or something stupid.

Hence Jesus says, ‘‘Blessed are those who have not seen, but yet believe’’.

Nonetheless, please press on in your quest to help turn the atheist around. l hope that is his/her true intention, to believe if proof is provided.

My prayers are with you.

Thank you for your response, and your prayers…!

It’s interesting that Jesus Himself was living amongst people and performing miracles left, right and center, and still many did not believe… Even the apostles had doubts from time to time. However, I still think miracles are the best way to try and convince people of the truth of the Catholic Church, in particular atheists, most of whom stake their position on science.

 

[Eucharisted]

Eucharistic miracles

 

[CSN]

I’m really interested in this too. I am a medical doctor, and until last year, was an evangelical Christian with a very large interest in the teaching of people like Kenneth Copeland.

The problem with many of the ‘miracles’ proclaimed in evangelical circles is that there is no objective proof. many of the conditions where people see improvements are of subjective symptoms, rather than objective, medical diseases. This, obviously, is quite different from the objective miracles written about in the New Testament.

I haven’t looked into it, but my understanding is that, at Lourdes, the ‘miracles’ are tested by panels of doctors. If there really is no explanation except for divine intervention, it’s known as a miracle. Otherwise it’s not, even if the person has benefitted enormously. I look forward to reading further posts on this.

Yes, I have a friend who went to Catholic high school with me, who became a born-again Christian. He went to see Todd Bentley’s revival and spoke of his “dental miracle” (filling changing color). I also saw other people standing there pulling their lips apart to show these apparent “miracles”.

That said, I have no doubt that true miracles occur among non-Catholics, in the same way that salvation can come to non-Catholics. However, none of these miracles that are not in the name of the Catholic Church can be scientifically verified. They seem to happen quietly, on the sidelines…

Regarding Lourdes, I have read that some cases are reviewed by over 200 doctors, many of them non-Catholics (Muslims, Jews, Atheists). Out of 7000+ claims of miracles at Lourdes, only 67 or so have been approved – less than 1%.

The criteria are strict. I understand there are 7 of them. For example, the cure must be sudden and lasting, there cannot be an alternative explanation (e.g. treatment, natural remission), it must be in response to a request for intercession, etc.

yourcatholicvoice.org/insight.php?article=1252

 

[CSN]

You can see great books here, but I don’t think it has much of the scientific documentation amazon.com/Eucharistic-Miracles-Joan-Carroll-Cruz/dp/0895553031
You can go to vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?ling=eng&res=1440x900 and see what you find out there or contact them and see where you go to get copies of the vatican medical commission reports of miracles.
You might ask him to look at my website heavensmessengers.org/ and go to the page - inherit eternal life. There’s some great proofs there.
In the end we must receive the gift of faith from God to believe much of what the church teaches. The use of reason can help us to believe in God and know a bit about him but it’s not enough.
If he is open slip him a book about Fatima and offer prayers and sacrifices for him- that will help most.
I had 100 masses offered for my eternal life page many years ago that it bear fruit so you never know what may happen if he reads it. Good luck and God bless.

Interesting website - I could only see links to angel-related things, however. Where is this “Inherit eternal life” page ?

 

[CSN]

I’m trying to get a copy of the miracle. I actually communicated with the person who did the scientific study. The issue that I am having is that I don’t understand Italian and can’t write it well or read it. Otherwise, I would send him a letter in Italian requesting a copy of the study (which he seemed glad to provide). I am also very busy - otherwise I might pay a professional Italian translater to translate the document for me. I am also highly interested in sending the document to interested friends.

On this forum, I communicated with a person who I think lives in Italy and knows of the company that published it and might be interested in translating the letter/article or obtaining it. I can tell him that there is another person interested in this miracle other than myself if you would like it sooner than I get around to doing this and maybe you might communicate with him.

P.S. In my investigations, I found out that the author of the study knows of no WHO organization involvement in the miracle. I called the WHO and searched their website and no one there or on the website knows of any involvement. So this seems like a spurious claim to me. Many claims have been spurious regarding the Lanciano miracle, including claims written in books. In fact, the person I initially contacted as a colleague of the doctor was quoted in a book as having an involvement with the Lanciano miracle that he actually did not have!!

Summary of my knowledge on the miracle:

Note - above in the summary I have provided you a link to an actual scientific side recording the study of the miracle.

Hmm, you have progressed further than I ever did… The key is only to get a copy of the documents themselves. Once that is done, translation is easy - all we need is a semi-qualified translator to help out, and then overview/ review from a professional translation service. I would be willing to shell out for this, although I find it hard to believe that no one until now ever bothered to have anything not in English actually translated into English.

Also, what you have said about Lanciano is disturbing. I actually tried to contact the World Health Organization. No luck. Also, the internet provides no other clues. Based on the foregoing, I would have to say that this aspect is false. But then, the disturbing part is this is exactly what I would expect from a non-Catholic miracle pumper. The Catholic approach to miracles is usually low-key, factual, and devoid of hype. The fact that someone may be trying to inflate the miraculousness of it all only serves to detract from it. This is disturbing to me.

Hey, that Medline article is interesting, but I cannot even see the Italian version. And again, how could this have gone until now without translation ?! It’s inconceivable ! There must be an English translation somewhere…

 

[benedict_XVIII]

I’m trying to get a copy of the miracle. I actually communicated with the person who did the scientific study. The issue that I am having is that I don’t understand Italian and can’t write it well or read it. Otherwise, I would send him a letter in Italian requesting a copy of the study (which he seemed glad to provide). I am also very busy - otherwise I might pay a professional Italian translater to translate the document for me. I am also highly interested in sending the document to interested friends.

On this forum, I communicated with a person who I think lives in Italy and knows of the company that published it and might be interested in translating the letter/article or obtaining it. I can tell him that there is another person interested in this miracle other than myself if you would like it sooner than I get around to doing this and maybe you might communicate with him.

P.S. In my investigations, I found out that the author of the study knows of no WHO organization involvement in the miracle. I called the WHO and searched their website and no one there or on the website knows of any involvement. So this seems like a spurious claim to me. Many claims have been spurious regarding the Lanciano miracle, including claims written in books. In fact, the person I initially contacted as a colleague of the doctor was quoted in a book as having an involvement with the Lanciano miracle that he actually did not have!!

Summary of my knowledge on the miracle:

Note - above in the summary I have provided you a link to an actual scientific side recording the study of the miracle.

I’m Italian.
I’d be glad to help, if you need it.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

I’m going to make you laugh now.
I don’t mind looking like a fool. Life is so nonsensical sometimes we are all fools in a certain way.
Anyway, I was in London in 1996 and when I’m in London it is a tradition for me to buy The Tiimes newspaper every morning.
So one morning I get my copy and on the front page I see a funny article: in one Hindu temple in London a miracle is happening.
I immediately drive there. Having been to India 4 years I was very interested.
There was a long queue of poeople queuing on the sidewalk.
When my turn comes up, I approach the “altar”.
There was an Indian woman sitting on the floor, by the side of a pile of cartons of milk.
The temple was about SHIVA, I think, one of the many Hindu gods.
You must know that Shiva’s vehicle is a bull called Nandi, if I remember well.
Anyway, in that temple there was a small marble statue of the bull.
The woman gave me a spoon, put some milk in it . I approached the spoon to the bull’s mouth and the marble bull drank the mill.
You can find articles about this presumed miracle on the Net.
The same miracle was happening in India and the US too, in Hindu temples.
It went on for two or three days and then stopped.
Funny, isn’t it?
I’m always sorry that no scientific team ever goes to find out what is going on.
I am always sorry to hear scientists say that science does not deal in miracles, only to try and disprove miracles when they happen, implying that some natural force of unknown origin was at work.
To me too, miracles are fundamental.
A religion without miracles would not appeal to me as much as it does with them.
Thanks for your attention

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I’m Italian.
I’d be glad to help, if you need it.

Italian Translation - Eucharistic Miracle Letter
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=306452

Here is the letter that I wanted to send. Would that be a kind, wise, and respectful thing for us to ask? Please do not feel obligated to do these things if you do not have the time or desire to do so or you feel uncomfortable communicating with strangers! You don’t even have to respond to this message if you would not like.

Thank you for your kindness, time, and consideration in offering to help.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Italian Translation - Eucharistic Miracle Letter
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=306452

Here is the letter that I wanted to send. Would that be a kind, wise, and respectful thing for us to ask? Please do not feel obligated to do these things if you do not have the time or desire to do so or you feel uncomfortable communicating with strangers! You don’t even have to respond to this message if you would not like.

Thank you for your kindness, time, and consideration in offering to help.

No problem.
If I understand correctly, I have to check out your Italian version and correct errors if necessary.
I’ll be glad to do that and I will send you a private message.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

I have done a little research.

The results of Prof. Linoli’s work were published in a book(36 pages) by an italian publisher called SMEL but is no longer available on the market.

I found a comment on Prof. Linoli’s work.

It says that the work done by prof Linoli is good but lacks something, like Linoli did not ascertain scientifically the age of the flesh and blood to see if it corresponds to the date the miracle happened.

In any case, it is no longer possible to state scientifically that a miracle happened because the transformation of a piece of the crucifix into real flesh and blood happened centuries ago and nobody will be able to re-witness the miracle today in order to approve it scientifically.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I have done a little research.

The results of Prof. Linoli’s work were published in a book(36 pages) by an italian publisher called SMEL but is no longer available on the market.

I found a comment on Prof. Linoli’s work.

It says that the work done by prof Linoli is good but lacks something, like Linoli did not ascertain scientifically the age of the flesh and blood to see if it corresponds to the date the miracle happened.

In any case, it is no longer possible to state scientifically that a miracle happened because the transformation of a piece of the crucifix into real flesh and blood happened centuries ago and nobody will be able to re-witness the miracle today in order to approve it scientifically.

Question:

Are the flesh and blood still living flesh and blood? If so, how can they be living flesh and blood when flesh and blood should just deteriorate?

 

[CSN]

I have done a little research.

The results of Prof. Linoli’s work were published in a book(36 pages) by an italian publisher called SMEL but is no longer available on the market.

I found a comment on Prof. Linoli’s work.

It says that the work done by prof Linoli is good but lacks something, like Linoli did not ascertain scientifically the age of the flesh and blood to see if it corresponds to the date the miracle happened.

In any case, it is no longer possible to state scientifically that a miracle happened because the transformation of a piece of the crucifix into real flesh and blood happened centuries ago and nobody will be able to re-witness the miracle today in order to approve it scientifically.

Ah, yes, thank you very much for you (name removed by moderator)ut. But I had the same question along the lines of AveSantaMaria - namely, is the flesh and blood still fresh. I understand that human blood changes chemically after only a few hours, but this flesh and blood are fresh, which would in and of itself constitute a miracle, no ?

Anyway, this is very interesting to me. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Any chance the Italian publisher will release old copies or text files or something (not sure how this works). Or some library in the world must have bought at least 1 copy…

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Ah, yes, thank you very much for you (name removed by moderator)ut. But I had the same question along the lines of AveSantaMaria - namely, is the flesh and blood still fresh. I understand that human blood changes chemically after only a few hours, but this flesh and blood are fresh, which would in and of itself constitute a miracle, no ?

Anyway, this is very interesting to me. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Any chance the Italian publisher will release old copies or text files or something (not sure how this works). Or some library in the world must have bought at least 1 copy…

Let me enquire about the conservation issue. I’ll be back later.

As regards a copy of the book, I don’t know how you are accustomed to in the US, the richest country in the world. But I doubt that, even if a library in Italy has the book, they will make it available on the Net.
And you cannot borrow it unless you go and see them personally.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

From what I have been reading, it seems to me that the reliquia consists of bread and that the miracuolous flesh and blood are “mixed” with the bread, and are dry. However, there is no scientific study yet on the conservation issue and it is difficult to explain the issue.
It seems however to me that there may be something miracuolous too about the conservation because the people are asking themselves whether someone could have added some conservative substance.

From the article I have been reading, it looks like there are chances that further scientific analysis may be carried out in future because people from an organization called CICAP are taking steps to get permission from the Church to carry out further analysis.

That’s all I gathered.