The scientific documentation of miracles

[AveSantaMaria]

A summary that I wrote on the origin of Scripture (possibly sinful, possibly wrong)

Scripture is infalliable because it was listed at the Synod of Hippo chaired by St. Augustine in the 300A.D.s and then later listed and disputed at the Synod of Rome and Synod of Carthage. However, during the Council of Trent during the Protestant Reformation it was first declared and made infalliable. Here is a link to the Council of Trent declaration that makes it infalliable. ewtn.com/library/councils/trent4.htm

If it is the Magisterium that tells us that Scripture is infalliable and rejects other Scriptures that propose to be true then how can we then reject the Magisterium and still lay claim to our belief in Scripture as infalliable. I understand the Magisterium to be a continuation of the Church that Christ established chaired by Peter that he said would not fail, which is what gave it the authority to declare something infalliable or not, such as Scripture.

The vicar of Christ is believed to be established from the living Church that Christ founded. We trace him directly to Peter - this means that just like a new apostle was chosen to replace Judas, with every death of the Bishop of Rome, Peter, a new Pope has been chosen from the earliest of times to replace the old Pope. The Pope leads the Church and is the one who has the moral authority to declare something like Scripture infalliable or not. He has the authority to choose the canon of Scripture and refute such as the Gospel of Peter or Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

The fact that there are disputes between Protestants and Catholics may just be an accumulation of division that we inherit because of people who left the Church that Christ established. Luther established a new Church and dispute certain books. He tried to remove Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations. These books are called Luther’s Antilegomena and stated that Revelation is “neither apostolic nor prophetic” and stated that “Christ is neither taught nor known in it.” Anglicans established a new Church when they didn’t like the rules on divorce in England. Mormons established a new Church. Seventh Day Adventists established a new Church. Muslims established a new Church. Now the Eugene Robinson is establishing a new Church, splitting the Anglican church even further based on his desire to have Christian approval for gay sex. Here is a papal timeline. faithfirst.com/html/popeJohn/timeline/timeline.html We have His Holiness St. Peter ca. 64, His Holiness St. Linus 67-76, His Holiness St. Anacletus (Cletus), 76-88, His Holiness St. Clement I, 88-97, His Holiness St. Evaristus, 97-105 and so on to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI

 

[benedict_XVIII]

You can read the following article::

aquinascollege.edu/welcome/thomasaquinas.php

which says exactly what I was saying about the vision St. Thomas had.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

I think I’m gonna make you happy, AveSantaMaria.
It sounds to me like you like reading lots of stuff.

As regards the Vatican II Council and the Non-Christian religions, you can read this:

____ Nostra Aetate (the Vatican II document dealing with the subject) . You can read the WIKIPEDIA summary, or perhaps find Nostra Aetate in English, the original document at the following link:

nostreradici.it/enaetate.htm

Bytie-bye for now

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I think I’m gonna make you happy, AveSantaMaria.
It sounds to me like you like reading lots of stuff.

As regards the Vatican II Council and the Non-Christian religions, you can read this:

____ Nostra Aetate (the Vatican II document dealing with the subject) . You can read the WIKIPEDIA summary, or perhaps find Nostra Aetate in English, the original document at the following link:

nostreradici.it/enaetate.htm

Bytie-bye for now

I have read excerpts of this though, yesterday in fact! It doesn’t say that all religions lead to God. It says,

The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightenes all men. Yet she proclaims and is duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth and the life (Jn. 1:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (2 Cor. 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life.

Maybe I am missing something else in this document that contradicts the above and what I think and I need to be corrected or my logic/rational analysis is flawed but below is how I understand this:

This is not about religion leading to God (in my imperfect and sometimes wrong understanding). This is about truth being of God and religions being looked to for examination and belief regarding answers to fundamental questions of life. Wherever there exists truth, the Catholic Church does not reject it, no matter from what religion it comes from. Could one say that the Anglicans, who preserve so much of the Catholic faith, are 100% in the wrong and all Anglican practices lead away from God? Of course not! Neither can one say these other non-Christian religions, wherever they happen to teach truth, are false and lead away from God. When they teach untruths, they lead away from God. When they teach truth, they lead to God. Hindu marriage isn’t evil just because they happen to be non Christians. It’s still a better environment for raising children than single motherhood (in many, but not all, circumstances). Just like science and philosophy, whenever they teach truth, they lead to God. That’s probably why our Popes have quoted philosophers in their writings. Sometimes they teach truth. Sometimes they don’t.

Careful study can sometimes help differentiate the truth from non-truth, in some circumstances along with personal revelation of Godly origin, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium, and Sacred Scripture.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

You are right.
(hair-splitting again)
You may also like to read “Dignitates Humanae” the Vatican II document on religious freedom.

In fact, I mixed up Vatican II and a message Our Lady presumably gave at Medjugorje in 1982 saying more or less that if we sincerely, honestly believe in God and sincerely want to do God’s will, we shall be saved no matter whjat religion we belong to.
Because, although only the Catholic religion is the true one, perfect one, God will be merciful with those sincere creatures who chose to follow Islam or Buddhism or another religion for want of a better option.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

You are right.
(hair-splitting again)
You may also like to read “Dignitates Humanae” the Vatican II document on religious freedom.

In fact, I mixed up Vatican II and a message Our Lady presumably gave at Medjugorje in 1982 saying more or less that if we sincerely, honestly believe in God and sincerely want to do God’s will, we shall be saved no matter whjat religion we belong to.
Because, although only the Catholic religion is the true one, perfect one, God will be merciful with those sincere creatures who chose to follow Islam or Buddhism or another religion for want of a better option.

You show humility and courage in the first line of your post. It can be difficult, painful, and humiliating to admit when one is wrong openly. Thank you for your kindness in suggesting a Vatican document to read that might clear up any lingering issues/questions in this area and perhaps feel free to suggest anything to look out for in particular in this document

Former Vatican Exorcist Bishop Andrea Gemma calls Medjugorje, “a diabolical deceit” and “work of the devil.” cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7452

I can say from my own experience in devoutly following nondenominational Protestantism, religious zealoutry in pursuit of false religion can indeed lead to diabolic involvement in one’s life as well as so greatly increased confusion as to the definition of “sin” and “holiness” that one can actually promote and pursue great sins while thinking oneself as a true follower of God in pursuit of sanctity and holiness. I would advise no one to go down the path that I once went down and hope to prevent others from believing heretical teaching, also known as lies.

I have also seen others’s suffering from undesired diabolic involvement in their lives due to their use of pagan religion to attempt to obtain life necessities. Muhammed, in creating Islam, and the creators of Hinduisum and many other false religions may have been human inspired, making these religions humanly seductive with human intelligence, or demonically inspired, making these religions diabolicically seductive with demonic supernatural intelligence.

Invincible ignorance refers to a situation when a person is ignorant of the truth and moral diligence does not rid this person of that ignorance. In this case, I know for sure the Church teaches that the person is non-culpable. Thus, because many of the believers of false religions are invincibly ignorant, they can be saved.

Yet, the work of many wonderful missionaries around the world and many of our saints is to rid people of invicible ignorance to the best of their abilities and God’s desire, either by service - that may cause people to look into the originator of a religion that produces such a loving and kind person, or by teaching activity, or by translating Bibles and saintly books into local languages or prayer and self-sacrifice or other holy means. These works are extremely valuable in building up the universal Church.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20

Cultural relativism, a belief that all religions, cultures, beliefs etc. are basically equal, that truth is relative, may be a very dangerous belief that insidiously creeps into society. See: Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html to understand how Judeo-Christian unique moral laws and sexual regulations may have helped founded the basis for the development of science, the unique progress of Judeo-Christian societies, and the development of Western civilization. As Judeo-Christian rules and regulations become diminished in Western societies due to great belief in cultural relativism or ignorance, it may signal the downfall of Western societies and so this Judeo-Christian heritage should be safeguarded, protected, valued, and adequately respected. In many cases of Western downfall or evil, rejection of truth in religion paved the way. Stalin dropped out of Orthodox Seminary. Hitler consciously rejected the teaching of his childhood Catholic faith on the evil of racism.

Growth of Judeo-Chrisitanity in developing societies may be a blessing for these people’s immortal souls, freedom from extreme poverty and starvation, and greater moral conformity to God’s law that might decrease societal crime. The West itself was once poor and non Judeo-Christian as well. Rome killed Christians before becoming the seat of Catholicism. The Coliseum was a popular enjoyment.

When Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The Torah’s prohibition of non-marital sex quite simply made the creation of Western civilization possible.
catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html

Even saints can be deceived. St. Teresa of Avila and St. Padre Pio both received both heavenly and demonic visions and couldn’t always tell the difference.

Christ promised Peter that “the gates of Hell” shall not prevail against him, the Father of the Catholic Church. As a result, I greatly respect, believe, and attempt to protect the Catholic Church and its corresponding legitimate authorities: the Magisterium, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. Satan tried to sift Peter and failed. I don’t doubt that he also extremely targets the Catholic Church (A Pope composed St. Michael’s prayer after a vision related to this fact), and I trust that Christ’s promise will fulfill all his promises.

 

[LilyM]

In regard to the Hindu statue ‘drinking’ milk - if the statue is of clay then it is a perfectly natural phenomonon - clay can naturally be porous and absorb liquids, including milk.

Many such ‘miracles’ of drinking statues have been debunked for this reason.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

You show humility and courage in the first line of your post. It can be difficult, painful, and humiliating to admit when one is wrong openly. Thank you for your kindness in suggesting a Vatican document to read that might clear up any lingering issues/questions in this area and perhaps feel free to suggest anything to look out for in particular in this document

Former Vatican Exorcist Bishop Andrea Gemma calls Medjugorje, “a diabolical deceit” and “work of the devil.” cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7452

It would seem to me that it is like this: it is better to be a good Buddhist than a terrible Christian.
I can say from my own experience in devoutly following nondenominational Protestantism, religious zealoutry in pursuit of false religion can indeed lead to diabolic involvement in one’s life as well as so greatly increased confusion as to the definition of “sin” and “holiness” that one can actually promote and pursue great sins while thinking oneself as a true follower of God in pursuit of sanctity and holiness. I would advise no one to go down the path that I once went down and hope to prevent others from believing heretical teaching, also known as lies.

I have also seen others’s suffering from undesired diabolic involvement in their lives due to their use of pagan religion to attempt to obtain life necessities. Muhammed, in creating Islam, and the creators of Hinduisum and many other false religions may have been human inspired, making these religions humanly seductive with human intelligence, or demonically inspired, making these religions diabolicically seductive with demonic supernatural intelligence.

Invincible ignorance refers to a situation when a person is ignorant of the truth and moral diligence does not rid this person of that ignorance. In this case, I know for sure the Church teaches that the person is non-culpable. Thus, because many of the believers of false religions are invincibly ignorant, they can be saved.

Yet, the work of many wonderful missionaries around the world and many of our saints is to rid people of invicible ignorance to the best of their abilities and God’s desire, either by service - that may cause people to look into the originator of a religion that produces such a loving and kind person, or by teaching activity, or by translating Bibles and saintly books into local languages or prayer and self-sacrifice or other holy means. These works are extremely valuable in building up the universal Church.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20

Cultural relativism, a belief that all religions, cultures, beliefs etc. are basically equal, that truth is relative, may be a very dangerous belief that insidiously creeps into society. See: Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html to understand how Judeo-Christian unique moral laws and sexual regulations may have helped founded the basis for the development of science, the unique progress of Judeo-Christian societies, and the development of Western civilization. As Judeo-Christian rules and regulations become diminished in Western societies due to great belief in cultural relativism or ignorance, it may signal the downfall of Western societies and so this Judeo-Christian heritage should be safeguarded, protected, valued, and adequately respected. In many cases of Western downfall or evil, rejection of truth in religion paved the way. Stalin dropped out of Orthodox Seminary. Hitler consciously rejected the teaching of his childhood Catholic faith on the evil of racism.

Even saints can be deceived. St. Teresa of Avila and St. Padre Pio both received both heavenly and demonic visions and couldn’t always tell the difference.

Christ promised Peter that “the gates of Hell” shall not prevail against him, the Father of the Catholic Church. As a result, I greatly respect, believe, and attempt to protect the Catholic Church and its corresponding legitimate authorities: the Magisterium, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. Satan tried to sift Peter and failed. I don’t doubt that he also extremely targets the Catholic Church (A Pope composed St. Michael’s prayer after a vision related to this fact), and I trust that Christ’s promise will fulfill all his promises.

Dear AveSanta Maria,

it is very good that you are a rigorous man who likes sticking to the true doctrine.
However, let me offer you these thoughts:

Jesus said that God to some gave 30, to some 60 and to some 90.
Does it mean that we cannot expect all humanity to be as fully enlightened as a Catholic Pope ?
Particularly if you consider that Jesus also said: Will I find the faith when I come back ?

It sounds like indeed it is fundamental to have the true faith, but is it any use if you do not practice it ?
Jesus told this parable: the father sent his two sons to work in the vineyard.
One said no and later went. The other said yes but didn’t go.
The one who said yes and didn’t go was not justified.

Jesus said : I want mercy, not sacrifices.

In the end, It sounds like it is better to be a good Buddhist than a terrible christian
I submit these thoughts to your endearing comment.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

.
Does it mean that we cannot expect all humanity to be as fully enlightened as a Catholic Pope ?
Particularly if you consider that Jesus also said: Will I find the faith when I come back ?

It sounds like indeed it is fundamental to have the true faith, but is it any use if you do not practice it ?
Jesus told this parable: the father sent his two sons to work in the vineyard.
One said no and later went. The other said yes but didn’t go.
The one who said yes and didn’t go was not justified.

Jesus said : I want mercy, not sacrifices.

I’m not sure that I understand your idea. Responding to what I think that I understand → No, all of humanity cannot be as enlightened. That is why such a thing exists as invincible ignorance. For those who are invincibly ignorant, that is between them and God. For those who are not invincibly ignorant, that is why things like these forums, scripture and saintly and Magisterium works online, homilies in Church, etc. exist to educate, correct, teach, pray, and support. I’m not invincibly ignorant in these matters. I may be invincibly ignorant in others. I’m not sure that I need to worry about whether or not all or most of humanity is invincibly ignorant as much as I need to worry that I am doing my 100% best to live up to Christ’s teachings. Am I a Pope that I am able to excommunicate people for heretical teaching?

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matthew 7:1-5

I read in St. Maria Faustina’s Diary: Divine Mercy in My Soul that one perfect soul lights up the world and has a greater effect than many imperfect souls.

**Some of the following taught to me by JREducation on these forums. ** Jesus preached within a radius of about 50 miles of his home. In the end, there were around 11 apostles and 120 open disciples. ** (Acts 1:15) ** 2,000 years later Christ’s message has certainly spread to almost every corner of the Earth. In my non-humble opinion, this demonstrates the immense power of Christ and God and is an amazing and powerful reason to trust in Christ completely and totally in everything.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” ** Isaiah 55:8 **

In the end, It sounds like it is better to be a good Buddhist than a terrible christian
I submit these thoughts to your endearing comment.

Why be a good Buddhist or a terrible Christian? I have no idea the answer to this question. See what Christ said when he was called good:An official asked him this question, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? ** No one is good but God alone.” ** Luke 18:18-19 What does it mean to be a good Buddhist? What does it mean to be a terrible Christian? (I will pose that the answer to the second in my imperfect understanding means knowing God’s moral laws and not following them given this biblical passage: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ** only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. ** Matthew 7:21) Why not be a good Catholic?

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Thank you Ave,

But what I meant was: To some God gave 30 (perhaps the Hindus).
So if a Hindu has only 30 % of the truth and that is all God gave him and he lives up to it, . …

,is it not better than a Catholic who has 100 % of the truth but does not practice, like many of us Catholics today ?

If that is so, I do not feel like condemning the Hindu religion for having 70 % of lies.

The fact that there is the Pope and Magisterium and the forums does not guarantee that the Catholic community is living up to God’s will… In fact, Jesus Himself was wondering (knowing the human race better than anyone else) whether he was going to find the faith when he came back, or the parable of the father and the two sons.

It seems to me that Jesus was very worried about us.
Not only because the Jewish people had been so unfaithful in the past but because there was no guarantee that we would be faithful in the future.
What good is belonging to the true faith if we are like we are today, with Our Lady announcing the biggest punishment since the deluge ?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. I did not understand before. I’m actually still not sure that I understand so please pardon me if I am still not addressing my question or if my replies appear unnecesarily harsh.

Spending one’s time condemning the Hindu religion strikes me as a waste of time. Why spend so much time worrying about what one cannot do much about? If one is seriously worried about the Hindus believing 70% lies, then one might need to seek to convert them through prayer, sacrifice, and/or missionary work. Believing that they live mostly in invincible ignorance is different than condemning them. The same for Catholics that you believe have 100% of the faith but only live 30% of it. If that problem exists, maybe time is better spent trying to encourage Catholics to repent and turn back to the true faith through prayer, sacrifice, and/or missionary work than spending time condemning them. If you think that the problem is greater with Catholics than Hindus, then maybe God is calling you to work on conversion of the Catholics. One can convert by good example as well. Christ, after all, had a message for all peoples but he spent his time specifically teaching the Jews. St. Paul spent his time teaching the Romans among others. It’s the same message - it’s not discriminatory, it does not apply differently to one cultural group than others.

I am now making a guess that your implied point is that it is better to convert one’s own people than the people of others. It is important to recognize that many Catholics do come from other religious backgrounds. In America, Gov. Bobby Jindal is a former Hindu, now Catholic, who was helped to conversion by interactions with a Christian girlfriend. If his example is a good one for Hindus to follow, what’s wrong with that? Maybe he will help convert his civilization, along with people like Mother Teresa, much beloved by the Indian people. In addition to being a Blessed of the Catholic Church, she won a Noble Peace Prize in 1979, India’s highest honor the Bharat Ratna (“Jewel of India”) in 1980, and was popularly voted the greatet Indian since the country’s independence in 1947 (excluding Gandhi from consideration) by Indian magazine Outlook in 2002. In fact, the Western world was not always Christian. Ancient Rome followed Roman gods, that may be much like the Hindu gods of today. Ancient Greece followed Greek gods. Westerners were once pagans. For all we know, Gov. Bobby Jindal (as a former Hindu) may one day become President of America and be instrumental in bringing conversion to America and the rest of the world.

A question to ask about the biggest punishment since the deluge is: ** why is it happening? ** Is it because we belong to the wrong faith? No. I would argue (perhaps incorrectly) it is because we are not living up to the commandments of this faith, only one of which is spreading the “good news.” [This is a necessity: See the book of Jonah] Other commandments include respect for life: regarding abortion, homosexual marriage, fornication and adultery, respect for the rights of others and an end to oppression of others, respect for truth (no lies). So I don’t see reason to reject affirming the faith. Rather, it seems more necessary to lovingly encourage ourselves and others to live up to the 100% of Catholicism and to pay most attention to our own spiritual perfection. As St. Maria Faustina’s Diary pointed out, a perfect soul has a much greater positive effect on others than many imperfect souls.

I know you don’t like Mother Teresa very much, but you haven’t presented enough reason for me myself to believe that we shouldn’t listen to her, and she also seemed to prophesy the deluge, *** “The fruit of abortion is nuclear war. What you do to the unborn child, you do to Jesus.” *** So at least one benefit of belonging to the true faith may be the opportunity to avoid the deluge, like the Ninevites avoided their own punishment and the good theif avoided his punishment, by converting and repenting ASAP! :clapping: :dancing:

It is also greatly important to understand the importance of Judeo-Christianity in creating the success of the Western World. Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html

Excerpt: When Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The Torah’s prohibition of non-marital sex quite simply made the creation of Western civilization possible.

Our science, our moral values, our development etc. may be intrinsically rooted in Judeo-Christianity.

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard the sayings, “If you don’t know where you’ve come from, you won’t know where you’re going” or “You don’t know what you have until it’s gone.” It might be wise to learn more about why Judeo-Christian heritage is important in order to value, appreciate, and respect it adequately.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Dear Ave,

Your posts are usually very long. But I like your views and I shall try, at least this time, to reply as your post deserves. I need some time though.

One thing however sets us apart.
You seem to rely heavily on what you read.
I prefer to rely on what actually happens in the real world.
You have read in your magazines that the Indian people respect Gandhi and Mother Teresa
You need to go to India and talk to the people.
You will find plenty of people who do not like either of both.
It is a shame that I am prevented by some sort of censorship to tell you what I have seen on the field about India and MT.
No magazine in the world is going to make me deny what my eyes have actually seen…
By the way, I have also visisted Gandhian organizations in India. They are ever fewer and fewer in numbers and struggling to survive.
You might at least agree that as soon as Nehru took office he immediately set out to betray all of Gandhi’s ideas on the right solutions for India.
I have read various biographies of Gandhi and some of his books.
I consider myself a little expert on India because I have always studied the subject and , excuse me if I’m immodest, I know what I would be talking about if they only let me:

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Dear Ave,

Your posts are usually very long. But I like your views and I shall try, at least this time, to reply as your post deserves. I need some time though.

One thing however sets us apart.
You seem to rely heavily on what you read.
I prefer to rely on what actually happens in the real world.
You have read in your magazines that the Indian people respect Gandhi and Mother Teresa
You need to go to India and talk to the people.
You will find plenty of people who do not like either of both.
It is a shame that I am prevented by some sort of censorship to tell you what I have seen on the field about India and MT.
No magazine in the world is going to make me deny what my eyes have actually seen…
By the way, I have also visisted Gandhian organizations in India. They are ever fewer and fewer in numbers and struggling to survive.
You might at least agree that as soon as Nehru took office he immediately set out to betray all of Gandhi’s ideas on the right solutions for India.
I have read various biographies of Gandhi and some of his books.
I consider myself a little expert on India because I have always studied the subject and , excuse me if I’m immodest, I know what I would be talking about if they only let me:

Maybe we have an important and fundamental difference in ideology. One can see a glass as half-full or half-empty. I do think things can be good and worthy of appreciation even if they aren’t perfect. I am not expecting perfection from anyone, neither Mother Teresa nor Mahatama Gandhi. So it is hard for me to understand why one should expect perfection from them, given that they are human, and what could possibly be revealed that would decrease the significance of the good that they did do. Am I to reject Peter because he betrayed Christ three times at the Crucifixion, was not present at Christ’s death, and later kept on repeatedly failing?

I do fail to understand what could possibly be revealed about Mahatma Gandhi that might decrease the importance of the fact that he helped secure liberation of India from British colonialism, popularized the concept of nonviolent resistance and successfully used it, (inspiring Rev. Martin Luther King), was imprisoned for his activism, and died as a martyr for India when he was assassinated. Did his detractors effect such significant change in the world? I already know a lot of negative facts about him, that have truly caused me to look at him as a fundamentally imperfect hero and not a perfect hero, but I try my best not to denigrate, ignore, reject, and refute the profound good that he did because he did bad as well or see why anyone should be commended for doing so. The same with Mother Teresa. I know some of what Christopher Hitchens writes about her that is negative. I don’t really doubt it. I haven’t read anything by him that I think is a lie. Yet, it does not signifcantly change my opinion on Mother Teresa. Some lights shine brighter than others. Some people are more perfect than others. Christ is infinitely worthy of more attention than Mary. Does that make Mary nothing? Only in relation to God. When someone holier than Mother Teresa that people are inspired by is canonized a saint, I’m sure devotion will pass to that person instead.

If I were to expect others to be perfect (like only Christ and Mary were as far as Catholics know), then perhaps I should be disappointed. But since I tend to expect people to extremely frequently be corrupt, greedy, judgmental, craven, sinful, selfish, self-absorbed, critical, willfully ignorant, disrespectful, biased, and filled with all types of evil, she seems to me to be a wonderful light to the world for overcoming so much of that to give so many people, including myself, hope. ** I am open ** to hearing what you have to say about her that would radically change the Catholic Church and other people’s (including my own) minds, but I am very doubtful that her negatives can be strong enough to overwhelm her positives though ** I am open, of course, to hearing the truth and will apologize for my initial closed-mindedness if I am wrong.** I also don’t really understand the good purpose or worth of spreading this information to others if it does not overwhelm her positives. Maybe I need to be enlightened on the reasons why this is a good thing to spread this information and Christ, Mary, and Joseph might help me to understand!

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. I did not understand before. I’m actually still not sure that I understand so please pardon me if I am still not addressing my question or if my replies appear unnecesarily harsh.

Spending one’s time condemning the Hindu religion strikes me as a waste of time.

Benedict: I was not condemning them at all. Actually, I was saying this: If God gave them only 30 % of the Truth (maybe), who am I to condemn the Hindu religion ?

Why spend so much time worrying about what one cannot do much about? If one is seriously worried about the Hindus believing 70% lies, then one might need to seek to convert them through prayer, sacrifice, and/or missionary work. Believing that they live mostly in invincible ignorance is different than condemning them.

Benedict: I don’t know if their ignorance is invincible or not. My dear friend, wake up. Basically, those Indians who convert to Christianity are the outcasts, who thus try to escape the Hindu caste system.

The same for Catholics that you believe have 100% of the faith but only live 30% of it. If that problem exists, maybe time is better spent trying to encourage Catholics to repent and turn back to the true faith through prayer, sacrifice, and/or missionary work than spending time condemning them.
Benedict: I don’t like the word “condemning”. I have often tried to spread the Gospel by telling the Good News. Nobody wants to listen. My nephew is baptized and all the rest. He is the last one I have tried to convert here in Italy a few days ago. He tells me he knows I am telling the truth, but that the Gospel doesn’t work. He prefers the ways of the world.

I am now making a guess that your implied point is that it is better to convert one’s own people than the people of others. It is important to recognize that many Catholics do come from other religious backgrounds. In America, Gov. Bobby Jindal is a former Hindu, now Catholic, who was helped to conversion by interactions with a Christian girlfriend. If his example is a good one for Hindus to follow, what’s wrong with that?

Benedict: No. The initial idea of this thread was that MAYBE after all it is consistent with the Gospel that all religions lead to God, although the Church has not yet specifically said that. That other religions may have less of the truth that us Catholics but because God gives 30, 60, 90 according to His will and that MAYBE it is better to be a good non-Christian than a bad Christian.

A question to ask about the biggest punishment since the deluge is: why is it happening? Is it because we belong to the wrong faith? No. I would argue (perhaps incorrectly) it is because we are not living up to the commandments of this faith, only one of which is spreading the “good news.” [This is a necessity: See the book of Jonah] Other commandments include respect for life: regarding abortion, homosexual marriage, fornication and adultery, respect for the rights of others and an end to oppression of others, respect for truth (no lies). So I don’t see reason to reject affirming the faith. Rather, it seems more necessary to lovingly encourage ourselves and others to live up to the 100% of Catholicism and to pay most attention to our own spiritual perfection. As St. Maria Faustina’s Diary pointed out, a perfect soul has a much greater positive effect on others than many imperfect souls.

It is also greatly important to understand the importance of Judeo-Christianity in creating the success of the Western World.

Benedict: I am sorry I do not share this view. I believe that if we had applied Judeo-Christianity correctly our Western Civilization would have been completely different. But there is not enough space to discuss this.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Think about this:

How can I go out and try to convert people to the Catholic faith when us Catholics are doing what we are doing?
Do you talk to people in the streets to know why they reject the Church?
I do

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Dear Ave,

I await your reaction.
However, please let me carry on the discussion little by little.
I don’t like spending hours at the computer, plus I have to see if my mother needs help.
I shall discuss your post number 53 later. Please be patient with me

 

[catharina]

Whenever I see concentration given to the subject of miracles, I recall the words of Jesus to one who was without faith:

" 46 Then he returned to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. Now there was a royal official whose son was ill in Capernaum.
47 When he heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, who was near death. 48 Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will not believe.”" (John:4)

We have the miraculous before us daily in the Holy Eucharist.
We have the seven Sacraments, ever present in the Church.

We have the knowledge of Christ Jesus, resurrected.
We have the life of the Holy Spirit within us and the Church.
How and why would we be interested in seeking other miracles?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I am going to trust that you will forgive any unnecessary unkindness, rudeness, or overreaching.

Benedict: I was not condemning them at all. Actually, I was saying this: If God gave them only 30 % of the Truth (maybe), who am I to condemn the Hindu religion ?

Did anyone ask you though to condemn the Hindu religion? Maybe you can explain more clearly why you puzzle this question.

those Indians who convert to Christianity are the outcasts, who thus try to escape the Hindu caste system.

Christianity has always spread first to the oppressed from the very beginning, it has spread first to the outcasts and women. St. Dominic promoted the Rosary by spreading it to the women first, he believed that later on men would convert. Archbishop Oscar Romero said something along the lines of that the rich were not in a place to accept religion because they believed they were self-sufficient because of their money in the Violence of Love and so too did Christ praise the poor in spirit (in my imperfect opinion often correlated with material poverty) in the Beatitudes. Not all who convert are outcasts anyways. That is an offensive stereotype.

I have often tried to spread the Gospel by telling the Good News…

The saints have said that prayer and sacrifice work better than preaching so that might be a better avenue. God gives all different talents and gifts. For some, preaching is not the gift or the appropriate calling. One has to discern this oneself, hopefully with the help of a spiritual advisor. One perfect soul is also more able to reach others than many imperfect souls so maybe if you really want to talk to others about the faith it might be better to first seek your own spiritual perfection or to pursue prayer/sacrifice rather than preaching.

Benedict: No. The initial idea of this thread was that MAYBE after all it is consistent with the Gospel that all religions lead to God, although the Church has not yet specifically said that.

If you want to believe that, that is up to your free will. I don’t see any reason to believe so, and I have most definitely seen reason to believe the opposite - people infected by evil spirits by pagan religion - so I do not believe that this is true. And even if all religions did lead to God, why not go with the most direct route? I just don’t understand.

That other religions may have less of the truth that us Catholics but because God gives 30, 60, 90 according to His will and that MAYBE it is better to be a good non-Christian than a bad Christian.

Maybe. I think you are emphasizing that one may be too quick to try and convert and one should encourage people to moral good without trying to bring in the faith. Is that what you are saying?

Benedict: I am sorry I do not share this view. I believe that if we had applied Judeo-Christianity correctly our Western Civilization would have been completely different. .

I do believe the article that I linked to gives great logical reason for this view as well as Scripture, but if you choose not to read the article and disagree with Scripture that’s up to you. But my further discussion may be fruitless given different assumptions about the worth of of Catholicism. Perhaps you might seek self-conversion if you think there is little value in Catholicism.

How can I go and convert others to the Catholic faith if us Catholics are doing what we are doing?

I try not to follow a human religion. I try not to make religion dependent on what other Catholics do, but on the truth. I suspect that is why the Popes, Christ, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Paul, St. Maximilian Maria, St. Therese of Liseux, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Bonaventure, etc. also read and study in addition to observing others in order to carefully discern as much of the truth as possible. Would I stop believing in science because other people made a mockery of science? I hope not! Neither will I stop believing because other Catholics sin. Why some Popes have even died in bed with women! Obviously, that is a great moral failing. But the sins of a Pope have little to do with the truth of Catholicism.

Several of my friends have invited themselves to Church with me without my ever asking as well as asked for spiritual guidance. I myself am a religous convert instead of a nominally religious person. One reason is because holy people directly tried to convert me in addition to other reasons. I have studied history and seen how colonial rulers have allowed Christian missionaries into one area of a colonial terroritory and Muslim missions into another and the incredible difference in succcess of these relative populations. Religion does make a difference. I have also known people who are very successful now whose formerly illiterate parents were educated by Christian missionaries. I see a lot of good in Catholicism as well as conversion and evangelization.

I do think that one can get over-involved with evangelization, and while I was a nondenominational Christian, I may have picked up an overly envangelical outlook than is appropriate and I do work on correcting that when I see it, but the main reason that I believe there is an enormous growth in Protestant Christianity around the world while the Catholic Church stagnates and decreases every year in the United States is because Catholics have begun to have a bit of a dead-faith instead of a living faith. When you believe in something, live it, love it, trust it, it naturally spreads and is contagious! When you were born with it and you see it cynically as a burden that shouldn’t be shared and you think it has generally had a negative effect on the world, why should anyone else be interested in it and why should it be shared with others?

 

[benedict_XVIII]

I am sorry Ave.
Please do not be offended.
I would very much like to learn from you.
But, as you think, we are on different waves.
Your posts are very learnt and probably very wise, but they tire me.
I give up.
Please excuse me.
You are a book-made man.
I am a man from the streets.
I am not interested in anything that is not useful to be applied to life as it is. Practical.
I find the Bible and the Catholic doctrine very practical. That’s why I believe.
Yes, others have said to me that I concentrate too much on the half-empty glass.
The problem is: I do not find that the glass is half empty and half fuòll.
I find there is only 2 % good and 88% bad. (as a figure of speach)
Sorry Ave, please, please please, forgive me :

 

[jfallaw]

I am going to say a couple of things and then you please correct me where I am wrong:

(1) According to Vatican II, all religions (including Hindu), if properly practiced, lead to God, although only the Catholic faith is the perfect one.

(2) St. Thomas was indeed a great saint and an excellent theologian. I don’t dispute that.
However, once I read that one day, after writing so many good things, he stopped writing altogether.
When someone asked him why he replied: I had a vision, and now that I have had that vision, all that I have written looks like straw to me.

Is this right?

That’s the problem with Vatican II- people assume that it TAUGHT anything, let alone a heresy like the one you first stated. Basically what you’re implying is that the Church teaches that Satanism, if properly practiced, leads to God. Oh my God, what has become of our Church!? That is not true now, never has been, certainly was never proclaimed true by a pope or the magisterium, neither at VII or at any other time.