J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Then tell Jesus He was wrong at the Transfiguration!
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J
Jesusstreet
Guest
In reading over this thread seems everything has been said that could be said about this. My two cents, it is clear that we are ONE BODY OF CHRIST which is the MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST. Scripture defines this MYSTICAL BODY clearly, which in its comprehension brings us to the theological notions of HEAVEN, purgatory, and Earth, and the unity of us all as ONE BODY OF CHRIST that we may all pray for one another. Of course you know you can pray for your priest, the pope or the other people in the pews, the lay persons, but the Saints are in HEAVEN and offer powerful intercession by their prayers . … so ask The Saints to pray for us . …
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Amen.
LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Amen.
E
epostle
Guest
epostle;I don’t dispute that. I Peter 2:2 does not support this doctrine of yours that says only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy, and neither does one single verse of scripture.
The Catholic Church has always held scripture to be the PRIME source for doctrine, not THE ONLY source. You believe it is THE ONLY source for doctrine. This belief is not found in scripture. Anywhere. I will try to explain it another way.
If a person says, “There are no moral absolutes. That person is in logical trouble because that very statement is a moral absolute. He is saying it is a moral absolute that there are no moral absolutes. This system self-destructs. It cannot be true regardless how popular it is in America today. What he is really saying is…there are no moral absolutes, except this one.
“All generalizations are false”. This is a generalization in itself. It too self-destructs. What a person is really saying here is “all generalizations are false, except for this one.
"Only doctrines explicitly grounded in the teaching of the Bible are trustworthy.” This concept is self-destructive, and is not found in scripture. Unless you can find a scripture that explicitly says this, which you can’t, then you must re-phrase it to say: "Only doctrines explicitly grounded in the teaching of the Bible are trustworthy, except this one.”
Your only option is believe false histories about how and why the bible got here. The main reason we have a bible at all is because the Church had to know for sure what could be legitimately read during Mass!
I did not say foundation, I did not say doctrines found in the bible are not trustworthy, I said I Peter 2:2 does not support this doctrine of yours that says only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy, and neither does one single verse of scripture. Let me try and make it clear for you.
The Catholic Church has always held scripture to be the PRIME source for doctrine, not THE ONLY source. You believe it is THE ONLY source for doctrine. This belief is not found in scripture. Anywhere. I will try to explain it another way.
If a person says, “There are no moral absolutes. That person is in logical trouble because that very statement is a moral absolute. He is saying it is a moral absolute that there are no moral absolutes. This system self-destructs. It cannot be true regardless how popular it is in America today. What he is really saying is…there are no moral absolutes, except this one.
“All generalizations are false”. This is a generalization in itself. It too self-destructs. What a person is really saying here is “all generalizations are false, except for this one.
"Only doctrines explicitly grounded in the teaching of the Bible are trustworthy.” This concept is self-destructive, and is not found in scripture. Unless you can find a scripture that explicitly says this, which you can’t, then you must re-phrase it to say: "Only doctrines explicitly grounded in the teaching of the Bible are trustworthy, except this one.”
No, I trust the Church’s ideas guided by the Holy Spirit, not “men” who have no authority. The “men” who put the New Testament together in book form in 397 A.D. were bishops who believed in the intercession of the saints, (and many other things that are not explicit in the Bible) and said Mass bearing the same essence as the way it is done today. Tell me; is there two holy spirits? one for the Mass, and one for the bible?
Your only option is believe false histories about how and why the bible got here. The main reason we have a bible at all is because the Church had to know for sure what could be legitimately read during Mass!
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epostle
Guest
Because there doesn’t have to be. The references are not explicit, but they are there. This Tradition is rooted in Apostolic Teaching. If it was a false practice, somebody would have said something before the fourth century, but nobody did. And if they were in error about this, then no one could be sure they were not in error about the New Testament Books. The teaching began with Jesus and the Apostles in kernel form by the way they taught about the Kingdom of God. This “kernel” of teaching was further understood AFTER the NT was written, so demanding scripture verses is dishonest.
If the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century Christians had fallen into error, then the martyrs who were thrown to the lions died in vain. They painted prayers to saints on the catacomb walls that can still be seen today. Physical evidence is hard to deny.
Several reasons. They answer prayers, and God does miracles at their bequest. This has been testified by millions over the centuries
What the Bible says, and what the Church says the bible says. That’s in the bible too.
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Because they have.
I don’t. I’ll leave that up to the authority of the Church.
But if you reject the authority of the Church, you must therefore reject the superintendence of the Holy Spirit over the Church, who cannot error faith, morals, or what books belong in the Bible. Logically, you must rely on concordances, lexicons, and choose from 30,000 opinions.
:banghead:
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epostle
Guest
This is a cop out answer. The bible says “signs and wonders will follow them that believe…” It does not say “signs and wonders will follow them that are deceived”
First, show me “dead saint” in the Bible.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
Show me “dead saint” in the Bible, then show me in the Bible or in any of the Early Church Fathers where it is forbidden. Since you can’t, “dead saint” is a tradition of men. Conjuring up spirits is necromancy: of the occult, and is strictly forbidden.
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MariaG
Guest
Yes, we agree.
But again, it appears as if you are saying the saints in heaven are dead, which, again completely contradicts the plain words of scripture.
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justasking4
Guest
If you went to a graveyard where a catholic is buried do you consider that person dead?
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justasking4
Guest
The issue is this: can a person who has died hear your specific prayers? The only One in whom the scriptures teach is God alone. There is not one reference to anyone praying to someone who has died. Not one.
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justasking4
Guest
epostle;2544602]This is a cop out answer. The bible says “signs and wonders will follow them that believe…” It does not say “signs and wonders will follow them that are deceived”
Would you happen to have any references in the scriptures that shows someone praying to a deceased person and has his prayers answered by this deceased person?
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
To be asleep would mean that those who have died in Christ would be asleep and unaware of this world.
Would you happen to have any references in the scriptures that shows someone praying to a deceased person and has his prayers answered by this deceased person?
Paul mentions in I Thessalonians 4:13-14 that those who have died are “asleep”.—
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
To be asleep would mean that those who have died in Christ would be asleep and unaware of this world.
The problem with your example is that there is no evidence for this as being true of believers in the Scriptures.
Look at I Thess 4:13 where the dead saints i.e. those who have fallen asleep in Christ are what we would call “dead saints”. The only biblical prayers in the Bible are always directed directly to God. There are no cases of any exhortations in scripture to pray to the dead as some kind of conduit to Christ.
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justasking4
Guest
These 2 men actually appeared to Him and was sent by the Father to Him and we have no reason to believe He used someone else like a spiritist as Saul did to call up Samuel.
We also know that He was not praying to them. This is not some kind of prayer going on here.
Secondly we have no other mention of this being used as a justification to communicate with the dead in the NT.
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MariaG
Guest
Depends on whether or not I thought they were in heaven or hell.
But since I would pray and hope they were in heaven, since it is not my job to judge, I would pray the person was in heaven and therefore, not dead.
Death of the body and being dead are two very different things. Those who are dead, are not alive in Christ. Those whose body has died but they die in His grace, are not dead.
FYI, you could have used the general word Christian rather than specifying what kind of Christian.
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MariaG
Guest
And again, the issue is in what way are we using the word “pray”. We are using it in the same manner as “to ask” and scripture is full of saints asking other saints to pray for them. References of what those in heaven are doing, and what they aregoing to be like (angels) and the jobs they will carry out.
And all of those references tell us that the saints in heaven continue to do that which the did on earth, pray for other saints.
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MariaG
Guest
We don’t have to have scripture that shows answers to prayers. That is why it is called faith.
But we have plenty of scripture references that show us that the saints in heaven continue to pray for the saints on earth.
Your understading of scripture on this and of the communion of Saints is faulty. You are limiting what God is capable of doing. We are one body. How? Through HIS grace and power.
But there are other scriptures that show that your idea of “asleep” as being equal to being unaware of this world, is faulty, respectfully.
Scripture tells us we will be like angels in heaven and you say this is not evidence that these people that are referred to are true believers? Well we certainly know that they aren’t Satan worshippers
Respectfully, there is no mention of those who are “asleep” in Christ being called dead in Christian history or scripture until quite recently.
Scripture quite emphatically denies that people whose bodies have died are dead. To continue to insist that they are “dead” saints instead of saints that are alive in Christ contradicts the plain words of scripture.
Please show me one scripture verse that tells us that those who are asleep in Christ, are dead saints.
As for being a conduit to Christ, again, your understanding is flawed. Unless you would call yourself a conduit to Christ when you are asked and pray for someone else, conduit has inappropriate conotations, conatations that are more appropriate for the dead and not those who are alive in Christ.
There are two kinds of people who have died. Those that die and are truly dead. These people go to hell. We are to have no communication with them at all, they are dead.
And there are those who have died as believers, in God’s grace. They are not dead but alive in Christ. We should not seek knowledge of the future with them, we should not even expect to hear an answer from them, although we know it may be possible if God so will’s. But we can know with confidence that we are one Body and through Him, we can ask these saints in heaven to pray for us just as we can ask the saints on earth to pray for us because they are not dead. And there is absolutely no prohibition in scripture from asking a saint, someone who alive and not dead, to pray for us.
God Bless,
Maria
J
Jesusstreet
Guest
JESUS destroyed death, maybe the WORD hasn’t reached some ears. That being said, they are not dead. JESUS promised us LIFE, that’s why JESUS came, so we could have LIFE, and have it more abundantly.
Why then you think they are dead. They are not dead, the are ALIVE IN CHRIST and always will be. Which is why we can ask them to pray for us.
The souls of the dearly departed, who have left this world, the Church Militant are in either purgatory . … or HEAVEN . … unless well they were too wicked and judged to be among the damned . … in which case they are dead.
But of course condemn not and be not condemned, so let us all put everyone up as being ALIVE IN CHRIST and pray for them, and ask those we know to be in HEAVEN to pray for us. Pray for them as they may be in purgatory. And those in HEAVEN being closer to GOD ask them to intercede for us . …
Scriptures teach that JESUS is the ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and man. … but so many do not discern the BODY OF CHRIST . … which is ONE WITH CHRIST as a bride is one with the bridegroom . . . JESUS IS ONE WITH THE CHURCH and JESUS IS HEAD OF THE CHURCH . … and you ask then where is JESUS, but JESUS is present BODY BLOOD SOUL AND DIVINITY at the mass, and we unite ourselves to THE WORD OF GOD in the WEDDING FEAST OF THE LAMB . … and then say that this very same LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH whom we feed, is the mediator who sits at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD OUR FATHER . … How then can one deny the intercession of Saints?
From outside the body one doesn’t talk to the foot they talk to the head, because they know the foot won’t respond. But being part of the BODY OF CHRIST we as members ask the other members to ask the head along with us, that the body may petition the head . … our HEAD IS JESUS CHRIST . …
It is a matter of perspective SPIRITually from within, or without, the MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST.
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Gill79
Guest
Hi
I do think saints on heaven to pray for us but it not for us to pray or ask them from earth. from earth only Holy Spirit do that.
in literually sense saints are dead as their bodies still in graves not the souls that the context (dead from earth viewpoint)
in literually sense saints are alive in heaven and sinners are alive in hell
in spiritaul sense saints had life, sinners are dead without God so refece naturelly dead as in hell for same reason
only Holy Spirit do that through Jesus, begin one meditor between us and God
because Jesus arose from tomb both Man and God in soul and body unlike saints of course and more
Gillian
J
justasking4
Guest
Doesn’t your church say it does not know who is in heaven except for a few?
Secondly, you have no way of knowing if they can even hear your prayers. The scriptures don’t teach it and that is the only way you could since they are revealtion.
Do you know specifically who has been condemned and who has not?
All you are doing here is taking a “shot gun” approach and hope you hit something. Since you don’t know and can’t know who is in heaven, you have no way to know if anyone really hears your prayers. You can have no confidence your prayers are heard.
I deny it because the scriptures don’t teach it. Rather it does teach that we do have a great high priest in Christ who does intercede for us before the FATHER.
Not so. It is a matter of truth and what do the scriptures teach about how and to whom we are to pray to. The idea of praying to a saint is totally unknown to the scripture.
J
justasking4
Guest
Would you happen to have some scripture references?
There are couple of things you can do to demonstrate this. One is context. Does the context tell us that some kind of communication is going on with those who have died and those here on earth? If you can show me that, then your claim will have some merit.
The issue though is communication. Can they hear your prayers?
But there are other scriptures that show that your idea of “asleep” as being equal to being unaware of this world, is faulty, respectfully.
Can you show me these other scriptures?
Again this does not address the communications issue.Scripture tells us we will be like angels in heaven and you say this is not evidence that these people that are referred to are true believers? Well we certainly know that they aren’t Satan worshippers
Respectfully, there is no mention of those who are “asleep” in Christ being called dead in Christian history or scripture until quite recently.
Scripture quite emphatically denies that people whose bodies have died are dead. To continue to insist that they are “dead” saints instead of saints that are alive in Christ contradicts the plain words of scripture.
Please show me one scripture verse that tells us that those who are asleep in Christ, are dead saints.
i am using dead in the common way we understand death. There physical bodies are dead and the scriptures say they are “asleep” and not active.
Every analogy has its limitations.
How do you know this is the case?
There is not one scripture that supports the idea of praying to saints who are asleep. The only One you can have confidence that hears your prayers is God and God alone.
It is not enough to say there is no prohibition against it but you must demonstrate this is something commanded by scripture.
J
Jesusstreet
Guest
"justasking:
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epostle
Guest
I said it before. It doesn’t have to be explicitly spelled out in scripture, and you still have failed to produce one scripture that states that all doctrines must be explicitly spelled out in scripture. That is a false doctrine. You go by it. Until you can produce a scripture that supports this man-made tradition, you remain in error.
You have also failed to provide a scripture that condemns the practice. The Christians painted prayers for the saints on the walls of the catacombs in the 1st century, that can still be seen today. You have dismissed this hard physical evidence and not because you are seeking the truth.
There is no proof that prayers to saints was found to be in error, until the reformers came up with their Nominalist self defeating doctrine of “bible-alone” theology, which you can use the bible to say anything you want it to. You have 30,000 variations that demonstrates its failure. Some are 80% correct, and some are 20% correct.
You have dismissed every supporting scriptural argument including the whole concept of doctrinal development. It is my personal opinion that those who reject the Creeds can scarcely be called Christians, because then you must cherry pick the teachings of the Apostles successors who were just a few generations away, who shared the same language and culture of the original Twelve. To you, they mean nothing. Yet you accept certain books of the bible that were canonized by the same men!!!They only alternative to development is reductionism.
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Now we are back to you dividing God’s love into compartments, which is against scripture.
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
Now we are back to you dividing God’s family, which is against scripture.
E
epostle
Guest
Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
What is really sad is that by denying the communion of saints, you diminish God’s love for us, contrary to scriptures.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
You have flatly denied that Jesus said He COULD pray to angels for help, contrary to scriptures. You deny we are like the angels in heaven. contrary to Matt. 22:30.
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
What is really sad is that by denying the communion of saints, you diminish God’s love for us, contrary to scriptures.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
You have flatly denied that Jesus said He COULD pray to angels for help, contrary to scriptures. You deny we are like the angels in heaven. contrary to Matt. 22:30.
- Status