The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

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Where is there a verse that tells us to pray to anyone other than God? Or where is there any example of someone praying to anyone other than God?
Pray, as defined by the Catholic Church, we see many examples of saints asking other saints to pray for each other.

Paul constantly asks people to pray for him. He is “praying to” asking, his bretheran for prayers.

Your problem is you are trying to place the Protestant, and modern definition of prayer on an old word that has greater depth of meaning in the Catholic Church.

Pray to= beseech= to ask

We can pray to/beseech/ask anyone, and in fact I would say that it would be an odd person who never asks anyone else but God for help in our daily lives. We are the body of Christ. We, not I.

But we worship(latria) God alone.

👋
 
But the Bible does show us the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that all are God. It also tells us God is one. The Trinity is in the Bible but not by name. Of course what we call the doctrine is not important, itis the content of the doctrine that is, as that is clearly Biblical.
Oneness pentecostals and JW’s would disagree with you that it is “clearly” biblical.
 
Was Jesus wrong to speak to Elijah and Moses during the transfiguration?

No!

Should we imitate Jesus?

Yes!
 
Was Jesus wrong to speak to Elijah and Moses during the transfiguration?

No!

Should we imitate Jesus?

Yes!
Firstly Jesus is God and He can talk to anyone, anyplace anytime. Not so us. Secondly if Elijah and/or Moses actually appeared and I could be sure it was them I would talk to them. That is not the same as praying to them in Heaven.
By the way, do Catholics actually pray to Moses, Elijah or Enoch, who we know are in Heaven or just the people the Church thinks are in Heaven?
 
Pray, as defined by the Catholic Church, we see many examples of saints asking other saints to pray for each other.

Paul constantly asks people to pray for him. He is “praying to” asking, his bretheran for prayers.

Your problem is you are trying to place the Protestant, and modern definition of prayer on an old word that has greater depth of meaning in the Catholic Church.

Pray to= beseech= to ask

We can pray to/beseech/ask anyone, and in fact I would say that it would be an odd person who never asks anyone else but God for help in our daily lives. We are the body of Christ. We, not I.

But we worship(latria) God alone.

👋
It is one thing to ask someone here on earth to pray for you. It is another thing to ask someone who is supposed to be in Heaven. Did any of the Apostles tell us to pray to anyone other than God?

I have seen many prayers that do not just ask for intercession. They ask that the person being prayed to for actual action like protection and guidance among other things.
 
On the issue of the Eastern Orthodox, you are incorrect, they properly venerate the Saints, ask them to pray for them in the correct sense as Catholics. And they do have a valid Eucharist so they have valid worship as they have valid sacramental orders through Apostolic succession. I think you’ve lumped Protestants in with EO’s which isn’t accurate, I’m afraid.
The Bible is replete with verses for the Saints, Rev 5:8, 8:3-4, Mt 17 at Jesus’ transfiguration where Moses and Elijia are seen “conversing” with Jesus so they obviously know what’s going on with Peter and James.

James 5:16 “The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” Being Moses and Elijah are “righteous persons” and they are according to Mt 17 “in heaven” and are shown “conversing” with Jesus, then it is reasonable and evident to say that the Saints in heaven hear our prayers and intercede for us as did both Elijah and Moses.
I meant it to read non-Catholic/non-Orthodox. Thank you for clarifying what I meant to say…you are absolutely correct.
 
It is one thing to ask someone here on earth to pray for you. It is another thing to ask someone who is supposed to be in Heaven. Did any of the Apostles tell us to pray to anyone other than God?
Neither do the Apostles tell us to worship on Sundays; where is that in the Bible? Acts 20:7? It only shows us that they broke bread on a Sunday–it does not tell us to worship on a Sunday. What about celebrating Christmas and Easter? Nothing there either. Yet these things seem to be not much of a problem for most Protestants. There are already quite a few passages here noted about praying to the saints. Who are the saints? They are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Why should we not pray to them then? For Catholics and Orthodox, prayer is the means to be in touch with the heavenly hosts–it is like writing a letter.
I have seen many prayers that do not just ask for intercession. They ask that the person being prayed to for actual action like protection and guidance among other things.
They are still intercessions. Note that we ask the saints to intercede, or pray, for us to God.
 
Dear St. Ann,
You were truly twice blessed
To have our blessed Mother
As your daughter
And Jesus our Savior
As your grandson.
I know that every period
Of our lives
Has its responsibilities
As well as its joys.
Today, it seems
That grandparents
Have either too little
Use or too much;
Either we are shunted aside
To do nothing,
Or we are called upon
To do everything.
**Help me to know **
Just where my duties lie
In my particular situation
And to carry them out as best I can.
Take care of my family,
My children, and their children.
Inspire them all
To follow your Grandson
And lead truly Christian lives
.
**Keep all of us
In your loving care,
Never let us turn away from Jesus,
And help us in the end
To receive the joy
Of entering into your Grandsons’
Glorious presence forever. **
Good St. Ann pray for us grandparents.
catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02387.htm

How is the above prayer, particularly the highlighted portions, simply a request for intercession. Is it not asking the saint to actually do things, not to just ask God to due them for the supplicant?
 
catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02387.htm

How is the above prayer, particularly the highlighted portions, simply a request for intercession. Is it not asking the saint to actually do things, not to just ask God to due them for the supplicant?
** Never let us turn away from Jesus,
And help us in the end
To receive the joy
Of entering into your Grandsons’
Glorious presence forever.**

Those lines should already be a give-away as to Who is really behind all this; it is Christ, only Christ, as Bishop Soc Villegas would say. The saints work for Christ by praying for us and with us. So in essence, it is Christ working through the saints.
 
It is one thing to ask someone here on earth to pray for you. It is another thing to ask someone who is supposed to be in Heaven. Did any of the Apostles tell us to pray to anyone other than God?

I have seen many prayers that do not just ask for intercession. They ask that the person being prayed to for actual action like protection and guidance among other things.
Now we’re talking in circles. This was addressed in post 4. Prayer IS NOT equal to worship (as much as you may like to equate the two).

The practice of praying to the Saints is as ancient as Christianity itself. That is a fact attested to not only by Sacred Tradition (which you probably reject) but also evidenced by secular archaeological studies. This was a commonly accepted practice before and while the Scriptures were written, a practice that the two oldest verifiable traditions of Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) have always adhered to up to the present day, yet Scripture is decidedly silent on the subject.

If Scripture is to be the heralded as the pillar of all Truth (which I certainly would not agree to, but will go on that premise as an attempt to find some sort of middle-ground we can both accept) then certainly, somewhere this practice would have been addressed as unacceptable if it was deemed such by the Apostles.
 
I believe that this truth about the intercession of the saints for us in heaven , was revealed to the Church by the Holy Spirit.
What can we find out alone , just with the Bible in the hands , reading in the Revelation
‘’And I will grant authority to my two witnesses,and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days,clothed in sackcloth.’’ ?
What we can guess reading about the Joy in the presence of the angels there in heaven over one sinner who repents ?
How can we understand the Scripture saying that the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised , after Jesus yealded up His spirit ?
These verses are the subjects of the polemics until now.
I believe that the Holy Spirit in the miraculous way opened to the Church the reality of the intercession of the saints for us .

Until these last generations the God’s truth have been found , through the authority of the Church.
Untill these last generations the people could find the truth , and follow the teaching of Jesus without opening the Bible.
The God’s truth can be witnessing in many ways , without opening the Bible.
There are a lot Church teachings , which are absolutely true, but we seems can not see them in the Bible .
Sorry , for the second answer as an out of context answer, but we might come closer into context if we would consider that the Church is right in so many things.
That it is incomparable with the other theological movements.
Even if the other theological movements would connect together , they wouldn’t stand against the spiritual,moral and yes , theological truths of the Church.
Therefore I think we have to believe in the Holy Spirit guidance of the Church in this teaching.
 
Now we’re talking in circles. This was addressed in post 4. Prayer IS NOT equal to worship (as much as you may like to equate the two).

The practice of praying to the Saints is as ancient as Christianity itself. That is a fact attested to not only by Sacred Tradition (which you probably reject) but also evidenced by secular archaeological studies. This was a commonly accepted practice before and while the Scriptures were written, a practice that the two oldest verifiable traditions of Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) have always adhered to up to the present day, yet Scripture is decidedly silent on the subject.

If Scripture is to be the heralded as the pillar of all Truth (which I certainly would not agree to, but will go on that premise as an attempt to find some sort of middle-ground we can both accept) then certainly, somewhere this practice would have been addressed as unacceptable if it was deemed such by the Apostles.
I believe this is a strong point. We know prayers to and for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle. I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the writers of the NT would have clearly addressed this important issue if it were false. I suppose another option is you could accept that the early church and the apostles were wrong on a number of issues to begin with. This, however, is not something I can personally accept.

Furthermore, let’s assume prayers to and for the dead is a false practice. Let’s also assume that many other Church practices were wrong. Hypothetically, if the Protestant Reformation was essentially a correction of these things, we must conclude that God allowed His people to walk in serious darkness for approximately 1,500 years. If that’s true, what does that say about God?? (…definitely not something good.)

In order to accept that God is good, and cares about guiding His people, I must therefore conclude that God did just that. He established a visible Church and hierarchical authority to guide His people. If He did not, one can reasonably presume the Lord wasn’t overly concerned about serious theological falsehoods over countless generations. We can also assume that He gave us the Holy Bible through a corrupt, misguided, and woefully unbiblical institution (on dozens of issues). Is this how God operates? (…I should hope not.)
 
Only in your mind. To a Catholic, there is never any doubt as to Who answers prayers.
I think SyCarl has a point. Saints DO answer prayers. We understand that they can do nothing of themselves, but we also understand that the fervent effectual prayer of the righteous avails much. When Peter and John were going to the temple to pray, the beggar asked for alms. Peter gave what he had, which was the gift of healing. Now, we know that Peter could not have made the man walk without the HS working through him, but at the same time, if Peter had not told the man 'rise up and walk", would a miracle have occurred? God chooses to work through people. People have been healed by touching relics, or even the shadows of saints falling on them. Is it the power of the saint? No, but Christ in them, the hope of glory.

The puzzle is, why not ask the saint to do something for you? They lined up to be healed since Jesus started healing!
 
We know of certain persons who are there, because God has revealed that to us. However, you are right, about those of whom it is not revealed, we do not know.
Yes, the scriptures don’t say that… after someone takes 7 books out of the bible…

The original bible with all the books talks about praying to the saints/dead…

Martin Luther almost took out the book of James too because it said faith without works is dead which goes into his faith alone theory. he called it an epistle of straw… I think he took revelation out too and later the Lutheran church put it back in.

Also, the book of revelation talks about prayers of the saints. Showing that they so interceed for us…

Point is, you can make the bible say what you want it to say by omiting whatever book you think gouges into your theology…
 
I think SyCarl has a point. Saints DO answer prayers. We understand that they can do nothing of themselves, but we also understand that the fervent effectual prayer of the righteous avails much. When Peter and John were going to the temple to pray, the beggar asked for alms. Peter gave what he had, which was the gift of healing. Now, we know that Peter could not have made the man walk without the HS working through him, but at the same time, if Peter had not told the man 'rise up and walk", would a miracle have occurred? God chooses to work through people. People have been healed by touching relics, or even the shadows of saints falling on them. Is it the power of the saint? No, but Christ in them, the hope of glory.

The puzzle is, why not ask the saint to do something for you? They lined up to be healed since Jesus started healing!
Some Protestants believe that we pray to idols and that we believe idols have the power of life and death over us. No matter what we say they believe that. Why? Because they can’t stand the alternative.
 
Some Protestants believe that we pray to idols and that we believe idols have the power of life and death over us. No matter what we say they believe that. Why? Because they can’t stand the alternative.
Kinda in the way the pharisees couldn’t stand the alternative either…
 
It is one thing to ask someone here on earth to pray for you. It is another thing to ask someone who is supposed to be in Heaven. Did any of the Apostles tell us to pray to anyone other than God?

I have seen many prayers that do not just ask for intercession. They ask that the person being prayed to for actual action like protection and guidance among other things.
Dear St. Ann,
You were truly twice blessed
To have our blessed Mother
As your daughter
And Jesus our Savior
As your grandson.
I know that every period
Of our lives
Has its responsibilities
As well as its joys.

Today, it seems
That grandparents
Have either too little
Use or too much;
Either we are shunted aside
To do nothing,
Or we are called upon
To do everything.

**Help me to know **
Read the last line of the prayer. St. Ann pray for us grandparents.

The prayers of the righteous availeth much. Through their prayers, one can be “keep” people in their loving care. And how are they being asked to show this loving care? Through prayer. And where is the prayers(loving care) going to keep them? With Christ so we can persevere until the end.

You seem to be starting with the premise that you believe we are asking saints as if they could answer the prayer with God-like powers. If instead, you accept our repeatedly stated assertion that we only worship God, that we know in these prayers from whom all answers come from, even if it is not stated baldly in the prayer, then it is obvious that we are simiply asking for the prayers of the righteous, through whom we know God chooses to heal people and answer prayers.
I think SyCarl has a point. Saints DO answer prayers. We understand that they can do nothing of themselves, but we also understand that the fervent effectual prayer of the righteous avails much. When Peter and John were going to the temple to pray, the beggar asked for alms. Peter gave what he had, which was the gift of healing. Now, we know that Peter could not have made the man walk without the HS working through him, but at the same time, if Peter had not told the man 'rise up and walk", would a miracle have occurred? God chooses to work through people. People have been healed by touching relics, or even the shadows of saints falling on them. Is it the power of the saint? No, but Christ in them, the hope of glory.

The puzzle is, why not ask the saint to do something for you? They lined up to be healed since Jesus started healing!
Very true.

And this is the difference between Catholic and most Protestants. We believe that not even death can separate the body of Christ. And that once one has died, they CONTINUE to do the work that they did while on earth.

If they had the gift of healing, they will continue to heal. And that gift will only be magnified since they now kneel in the presence of Christ.

Nowhere in scripture does it even hint that the gifts given to us will be taken back upon death. But we do read that if one does not exercise the gifts given to us, they will be taken from us and given to others. (parable of man and coins). We have no indication from scripture that death changes the responsibilities of believers. We will continue to worship and pray to God for others, but we will be able to truly do so, without ceasing:amen:
 
It is one thing to ask someone here on earth to pray for you. It is another thing to ask someone who is supposed to be in Heaven. Did any of the Apostles tell us to pray to anyone other than God?

I have seen many prayers that do not just ask for intercession. They ask that the person being prayed to for actual action like protection and guidance among other things.
Just out of curiosity SyCarl,

Where do you get your information? Who told you that you can’t ask someone living or dead for their prayers?
 
And this is the difference between Catholic and most Protestants. We believe that not even death can separate the body of Christ. And that once one has died, they CONTINUE to do the work that they did while on earth.

If they had the gift of healing, they will continue to heal. And that gift will only be magnified since they now kneel in the presence of Christ.

Nowhere in scripture does it even hint that the gifts given to us will be taken back upon death. But we do read that if one does not exercise the gifts given to us, they will be taken from us and given to others. (parable of man and coins). We have no indication from scripture that death changes the responsibilities of believers. We will continue to worship and pray to God for others, but we will be able to truly do so, without ceasing.
Doesn’t it say in Rev. 14:13 the following?

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them."


**Sounds like what you are saying is, they never rest from their labors but continue them in heaven too.

Also, don’t all the passages relating to judgment of believers talk about deeds done in the body? Never is there talk of deeds done outside the body, like in heaven.**
 
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