The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[DanteAlighieri]

The Bible also does not tell us to use our right hand when we make the sign of the Cross – in fact, it doesn’t tell us to make the sign of the Cross at all!

Nor does it tell us to drive our automobiles on the right or left side of the road, or to brush our teeth in a circular motion, or to pour hot water through dried bean grindings to make coffee.

The Bible does NOT conatin ALL inspired Truth, either.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Phil12123]

We know prayers to and for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle. I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the writers of the NT would have clearly addressed this important issue if it were false.

**Other than when an apostle like Peter prayed to raise the dead Dorcas (prayer to God, not Dorcas, but for Dorcas), how do we know prayer “to or for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle”? Just wondering how you know that.

Peace**

 

[Phil12123]

The Bible also does not tell us to use our right hand when we make the sign of the Cross – in fact, it doesn’t tell us to make the sign of the Cross at all!

Nor does it tell us to drive our automobiles on the right or left side of the road, or to brush our teeth in a circular motion, or to pour hot water through dried bean grindings to make coffee.

The Bible does NOT contain ALL inspired Truth, either.

**That’s true, but is that what you mean by “inspired Truth” ---- what side of the road we should drive on, or how to brush our teeth? Does God have to tell us that, i.e., inspire someone to write it? Would not our common sense suffice there? Could it be that He has inspired the biblical authors to write precisely what HE wants, and nothing more. Remember what John said, There are many other things that Christ did, but these are written because… why? That you may believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If the Holy Spirit of God inspired the writers, He told them exactly what to write and nothing more, for a reason. If we should be praying to anyone other than God, would not the Holy Spirit have inspired at least one NT author to validate in clear language that practice, so there would be no disputing it?

Peace**

 

[justasking4]

**Other than when an apostle like Peter prayed to raise the dead Dorcas (prayer to God, not Dorcas, but for Dorcas), how do we know prayer “to or for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle”? Just wondering how you know that.

Peace**

This is one of the problems with praying to people who have died. There is no way to know. It may sound reasonable to pray to someone who has died but that does not mean its true. Since the Scriptures don’t tell us the nature of the after life, it is foolish to go beyond what is written. The Scripture are quite clear that through Christ we do have access to the Father who promises to supply our needs. There is no need to appeal to anyone else.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

justasking4:

This is one of the problems with praying to people who have died.

The Saints are not dead. They are alive.

 

[Phil12123]

The Saints are not dead. They are alive.

**True, alive in heaven, presumably. But the issue is, are we to appeal to them, after their deaths, for something that we could be appealing directly to GOD for? And the point being made was, are we anywhere encouraged in the Word of God, inspired by the Spirit of God, to appeal to anyone other than GOD? I think not.

Look at the “Hall of Faith” chapter of Hebrews, chapter 11. After the inspired author gives all the examples of OT saints who did things by faith, we don’t see anything being said about praying to any of them, do we? Instead we read:**

**Hebrews 12:

1. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2. looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.**

**We can and should be encouraged by the lives of all saints, OT and NT, but we should only look to Jesus for help and strength to run the race that is set before us. The saints may be up there cheering us on, but even they want us to look to God and God alone for all our needs, just as they did when they were down here running their own races.

Peace**

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t it say in Rev. 14:13 the following?

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them."

**Sounds like what you are saying is, they never rest from their labors but continue them in heaven too.

Also, don’t all the passages relating to judgment of believers talk about deeds done in the body**? Never is there talk of deeds done outside the body, like in heaven.

Apples and oranges. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, they don’t just vanish when a person passes from one world to the next. Those that die in the Lord no longer need to “persist (labor)” to the end, because they have finished their race. They then stand on the sideline, cheering us on, and giving us water bottles. It is no labor for them, but an outpouring of the love of God.

We are judged by all the deeds done in the body. Those who die in the lord are no longer subject to condemnation:

Rom 8:1
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Rom 6:6-7
7 For he who has died is freed from sin.

 

[guanophore]

**Other than when an apostle like Peter prayed to raise the dead Dorcas (prayer to God, not Dorcas, but for Dorcas), how do we know prayer “to or for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle”? Just wondering how you know that.

Peace**

We believe in Sacred Oral Tradition as well as Sacred Written Tradition. We also have this practice from the Maccabean period, which is one of the reasons Luther wanted to take those books out of the canon.

** That’s true, but is that what you mean by “inspired Truth” ---- Could it be that He has inspired the biblical authors to write precisely what HE wants, and nothing more. **

No, if this were the case, he would have written the books, or told the Apostles to write. He taught them orally, and commissioned them to PREACH. He chose to use Sacred Oral Tradition to build the kingdom. Also, you can see by looking at what a mess is made, that everyone reading and coming to their own conclusion resolves nothing. We are instructed to bring disputes to the church, not to the scriputure.

** Remember what John said, There are many other things that Christ did, but these** are written because… why? That you may believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If the Holy Spirit of God inspired the writers, He told them exactly what to write and nothing more, for a reason. If we should be praying to anyone other than God, would not the Holy Spirit have inspired at least one NT author to validate in clear language that practice, so there would be no disputing it?

Peace

Believing in Christ is only the beginning, and the scripture is entirely sufficient for that. However, the application of faith is another matter, and while much guidance can be found in scripture, without the guidance of the Apostolic Authority, it is easy to misinterpret the meanings.

 

[guanophore]

This is one of the problems with praying to people who have died. There is no way to know. It may sound reasonable to pray to someone who has died but that does not mean its true. Since the Scriptures don’t tell us the nature of the after life, it is foolish to go beyond what is written. The Scripture are quite clear that through Christ we do have access to the Father who promises to supply our needs. There is no need to appeal to anyone else.

Scripture tells us plenty about the afterlife. One of the things it tells us is that the saints are alive there, and they can witness us.

** True, alive in heaven, presumably. But the issue is, are we to appeal to them, after their deaths, for something that we could be appealing directly to GOD for? And the point being made was, are we anywhere encouraged in the Word of God, inspired by the Spirit of God, to appeal to anyone other than GOD? I think not. **

You make a distinction that does not exist. Those who are “in Christ” have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ, in God. They only hear our prayers because they are members of His Body, and are “in Him”.

** Look at the “Hall of Faith” chapter of Hebrews, chapter 11. After the inspired author gives all the examples of OT saints who did things by faith, we don’t see anything being said about praying to any of them, do we? Instead we read:**

**Hebrews 12:

1. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2. looking unto Jesus**, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Thank you for quoting about the great cloud of witnesses!

** We can and should be encouraged by the lives of all saints, OT and NT, but we should only look to Jesus** for help and strength to run the race that is set before us. The saints may be up there cheering us on, but even they want us to look to God and God alone for all our needs, just as they did when they were down here running their own races.

Peace

Suit yourself. When I need something, I go to my neighbor, or my Godmother, or some other prayer warrior. I know that the effectual fervent prayers of a righteous person avails much, so I seek those in my life who pray and read scripture daily, and fast, because I know they are excellent channels of Gods grace.

 

[Renton405]

There’s scriptural references in the Catholic Canon. The Book of Maccabees has clear references to prayers for the dead, and Jesus clearly refers to these books, for example

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17. Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28
Where do you get your canonicity from? Did the Bible provide its own canonical authority? It seems pretty clear that there is no way in which the canon of the scripture can be determined from internal evidence, ie from the books themselves. In some other way, it must be the community of God’s people and/ or its accredited representative which determine what books are canonical! A problem for protestants theologians admitted by Karl Barth! Protestants can only say the Canon of Scripture itself is not established beyond doubt.

This is one of the big reasons Martin Luther took out Macabees. He also took out revelation too because it had prayers of the saints in it…

So yea the bible does not talk about it… AFTER martin Luther took out those 7 canonized books…

Its pretty easy to make the bible not say something by omiting a whole book from the bible. Dosen’t take a genius to do it… The question is, why do protestants think martin Luther made the correct decision. By what authority does he think he can just take 7 books out of the bible on a whim?? He is just one man and there is no proof that the holy spirit was working through him. Most of his decisions were made out of contempt for the Church, and the bible cleary states that we cannot make decisions while we are in anger…

 

[justasking4]

Scripture tells us plenty about the afterlife. One of the things it tells us is that the saints are alive there, and they can witness us.

Where do the Scriptures ever show or teach that we are to pray to these saints?

You make a distinction that does not exist. Those who are “in Christ” have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ, in God. They only hear our prayers because they are members of His Body, and are “in Him”.

This is right to do by the scriptures. However to say this about those who have died is another matter. The scriptures do not teach such a thing as praying to the dead for help.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Was Peter wrong for praying to Tabitha when she was dead?

 

[guanophore]

Where do the Scriptures ever show or teach that we are to pray to these saints?

The scriptures teach that we are all one Body, and that we need one another.
justasking4;2442971:

You go beyond what is written when you say they can hear us.

Perhaps another characteriztion would be better, since they do not “hear” with ears the way we do here in the temporal realm. It is more like a perception, I imagine.

Rev 5:8
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

How are the elders able to capture our prayers, and present them in golden bowls, if they are unaware of their existence?

Rev 8:3-5
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, voices, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The Holy Ones who have passed on, along with the angels, patriarchs, and Apostles are involved in heavenly worship. Our prayers are joined with them.

This “great cloud of witnesses” says nothing about praying to them.

I don’t see how you can have a great cloud of witnesses in front of whom you are supposed to behave yourself, if they don’t know what is going on. how can they be a “witness”? Granted, they don’t perceive with eyes and ears as we do, but they must be able to “witness” somehow!

This is right to do by the scriptures. However to say this about those who have died is another matter. The scriptures do not teach such a thing as praying to the dead for help.

Only because you make it another matter. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, that we believe in a communion of saints.

 

[Phil12123]

Was Peter wrong for praying to Tabitha when she was dead?

Apples and oranges, as someone said. Here is what it says:

**Acts 9:
36. At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did.
37. But it happened in those days that she became sick and died. When they had washed her, they laid her in an upper room.
38. And since Lydda was near Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent two men to him, imploring him not to delay in coming to them.
39. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he had come, they brought him to the upper room. And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them.
40. But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, "Tabitha, arise.’’ And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.
41. Then he gave her his hand and lifted her up; and when he had called the saints and widows, he presented her alive. **

**Does it really say, Peter prayed to Tabitha? No. He knelt down and prayed. “And turning to the body” indicates his prayer was not even in her direction. It is much more reasonable to say he prayed to God for Tabitha’s recovery or healing. His two-word command, “Tabitha, arise,” is not prayer to or for her, but a command similar to Jesus’ saying, “Lazarus, come forth!” Jesus was not praying to or for Lazarus. He was issuing a command.

Your idea that it is OK to pray to the saints in oranges to the above apples—not a valid comparison. Are you trying to raise any saints from the dead when you pray to them? Of course not. So you are really scaping the bottom of the barrel to use that as justification for a practice that in nowhere sanctioned in the NT.

Peace**

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Tabitha heard Peter when she was dead!

 

[guanophore]

Tabitha heard Peter when she was dead!

All are alive unto Him!

 

[Phil12123]

Where do the Scriptures ever show or teach that we are to pray to these saints?

That doesn’t really answer the question, so just admit that the scriptures do NOT show or teach that we are to pray to saints.

Rev 5:8
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

How are the elders able to capture our prayers, and present them in golden bowls, if they are unaware of their existence?

Again, apples and oranges. The mention of “prayers of the saints” in Rev. 5 & 8 does not specify to WHOM the prayers were made; it does not say they were prayed by saints on earth to saints in heaven. In fact, the reference in Rev. 8 does not even mention the saints—it only mentions an angel. It seems to me, to resort to highly symbolic or figurative language of Revelation to establish a normative prayer practice that could easily be taught by Paul in at least one verse in at least one of his many letters is grasping and stretching, and surely demonstrates that there is nothing, plainly and clearly, in NT scripture instructing believers on earth to pray to believers who are in heaven and who have rested from their labors.

I don’t see how you can have a great cloud of witnesses in front of whom you are supposed to behave yourself, if they don’t know what is going on. how can they be a “witness”? Granted, they don’t perceive with eyes and ears as we do, but they must be able to “witness” somehow!

**Yes, probably, but again, nothing is said of anyone praying to them. That is my point. Perhaps they witness or see us on our knees praying to God and perhaps when God gives the command He might send an angel, a ministering spirit, to do something in response to our prayer to God. But nothing is said about us praying to the saints or to the angels, only to God.

Peace**

 

[guanophore]

T hat doesn’t really answer the question, so just admit that the scriptures do NOT show or teach that we are to pray to saints.

They don’t tell us not to, either, and the fact that it is not explicity taught there is not a problem for Catholics, who recognize the equal authority of the Sacred Tradition, from whence came those scriptures in the first place.

Again, apples and oranges. The mention of “prayers of the saints” in Rev. 5 & 8 does not specify to WHOM the prayers were made; it does not say they were prayed by saints on earth to saints in heaven. In fact, the reference in Rev. 8 does not even mention the saints—it only mentions an angel. It seems to me, to resort to highly symbolic or figurative language of Revelation to establish a normative prayer practice that could easily be taught by Paul in at least one verse in at least one of his many letters is grasping and stretching, and surely demonstrates that there is nothing, plainly and clearly, in NT scripture instructing believers on earth to pray to believers who are in heaven and who have rested from their labors.

When Paul was teaching, there were not that many Saints he knew of in Heaven. However, I don’t doubt that he asked forgiveness of the Blessed St. Stephen, over whose martyrdom he presided. In fact, Paul was one of the first to be executed, so most of the earliest prayers to the saints are to him, and Peter, and James (especially in the Eastern Rites). I never claimed that the scriptures taught that. The OP, who apparently is a Sola Scripturist, claimed that. There is nothing in scripture that tells us to wear our Sunday Best to church, either, but we do. At least, I don’ t picture you going in your bathing suit, do you? Why not? Scripture doesn’t tell you how to dress for church! You can wear your jammies if you want!

Yes, probably, but again, nothing is said of anyone praying to them. That is my point. Perhaps they witness or see us on our knees praying to God and perhaps when God gives the command He might send an angel, a ministering spirit, to do something in response to our prayer to God. But nothing is said about us praying to the saints or to the angels, only to God.

These beings are all together in heaven, worshipping corporately. This is what we see in Revelation. They are not separated and not in communion with one another.

 

[Phil12123]

Tabitha heard Peter when she was dead!

**So what? Peter prayed to God not Tabitha. Why use this incident as some sort of support to pray to the dead? Is that the best you can do?

Also, have you personally prayed to Tabitha lately? Or Moses, or Abraham, or Solomon? Pray to any of them lately? Of course not, and why would you? Why not pray to God instead? **

 

[Milliardo]

**Other than when an apostle like Peter prayed to raise the dead Dorcas (prayer to God, not Dorcas, but for Dorcas), how do we know prayer “to or for the dead was an early Christian practice dating before the death of the last apostle”? Just wondering how you know that.

Peace**

It was properly documented in history. How did you know that Peter and Paul, and most of the other Apostles, were martyred? Those were not in the Bible either. Nor is there anything said about worship being on a Sunday.