The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[Phil12123]

They don’t tell us not to, either, and the fact that it is not explicity taught there is not a problem for Catholics, who recognize the equal authority of the Sacred Tradition, from whence came those scriptures in the first place.

If you want to rely on “Sacred Tradition” go for it! But just be honest and don’t beat around the bush when asked to show someone where it says in Scripture that we should pray to saints. Because you know it doesn’t say that.

When Paul was teaching, there were not that many Saints he knew of in Heaven. However, I don’t doubt that he asked forgiveness of the Blessed St. Stephen, over whose martyrdom he presided. In fact, Paul was one of the first to be executed, so most of the earliest prayers to the saints are to him, and Peter, and James (especially in the Eastern Rites).

Not that many saints in Heaven? What about that great cloud of witnesses, all the OT saints? He would know they are all there. But he never instructs anyone, through his many epistles, to pray to any of them. And he wouldn’t have had to ask Stephen for forgiveness, even if he could, because he received that from the Lord.

There is nothing in scripture that tells us to wear our Sunday Best to church, either, but we do. At least, I don’ t picture you going in your bathing suit, do you? Why not? Scripture doesn’t tell you how to dress for church! You can wear your jammies if you want!

Wrong. We are told to dress in modest apparel. Are you jammies and bathing suit modest? If they are, and you have no common sense, then go for it!

 

[Milliardo]

If you want to rely on “Sacred Tradition” go for it! But just be honest and don’t beat around the bush when asked to show someone where it says in Scripture that we should pray to saints. Because you know it doesn’t say that.

I think the better question is, where is it forbidden to do so? It’s not there, either, is it?

 

[guanophore]

**If you want to rely on “Sacred Tradition” go for it! But just be honest and don’t beat around the bush when asked to show someone where it says in Scripture that we should pray to saints. Because you know it doesn’t say that. **

Well, to me, it says that, because I know Christ’s body is not divided, and that those who have passed from this life to the next are no less a part of His Body, and I do not stop asking for the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous based on which side of the veil they reside. If you look back over the thread, you can verify that I never CLAIMED that the scriptures “tell” us to pray to saints.

On the contrary, the OP seemed to think that, because scripture does not command us to do so, we should not.

Not that many saints in Heaven? What about that great cloud of witnesses, all the OT saints? He would know they are all there. But he never instructs anyone, through his many epistles, to pray to any of them. And he wouldn’t have had to ask Stephen for forgiveness, even if he could, because he received that from the Lord.

You are right. Maybe Paul did have his litany of the Saints, just as we do today. I just know he was not in it yet.

Scripture teaches us that, if we have something against our brother, or he against us, that we should leave the gift on the altar, go be reconciled to the brother, then come back and offer the gift to God. Stephen already forgave them before he died. However, Paul may have had some work to do after his conversion. I have no doubt he was truly sorry for what he had done.

Wrong. We are told to dress in modest apparel. Are you jammies and bathing suit modest? If they are, and you have no common sense, then go for it!

Just teasing. I am trying to point out that the Bible does not include every whit of instruction on how to live the Christian life.

 

[Phil12123]

It was properly documented in history.

What documentation? What is the earliest known incident, whether from “Sacred Tradition” or elsewhere, that praying to deceased saints was a Christian practice dating from before the death of the last apostle?

 

[Milliardo]

What documentation? What is the earliest known incident, whether from “Sacred Tradition” or elsewhere, that praying to deceased saints was a Christian practice dating from before the death of the last apostle?

Christians in the catacombs wrote on the walls such things as, “Peter and Paul, pray for us”–referring to the Apostles Peter and Paul, and some other early Christian martyrs. Ah, dating from the death of the last Apostle? Well, can you give me anything which forbids it?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Phil12123: would you have prayed to God for a dead person like Tabitha?

Would you have spoken to her while she was dead?

Evidently Peter’s prayer was “Good Enough” for God Almighty as Tabitha came back alive!

God wasn’t angry at Peter for praying for a dead person.

Wouldn’t even the protestant definition of saint include Tabitha?

Not only was God not angry for Peter praying for the dead Tabitha–He wasn’t angry at Peter for speaking to her–she did come back alive!

Now what part of her coming back to life do you not understand?

Now what part of her coming back to life is not “Good Enough” for you?

And if raising someone from the dead doesn’t impress you then what will?

How DEAD are the saints to you?

How much do they not care about all souls? Do you become uncaring like that when you make it to Heaven?

Is Jesus happy that they can’t hear anyone’s prayers? Does Jesus glory and revel with joy that they aren’t allowed to pray for us? Would that be your definition of love continuing into the next life?

Were all the early christians who prayed for the dead and for the intercession of the saints morons?

Were the bishops, popes, and priests of their time stupid for not informing them that their prayers were wasted?

And who were the people in the early centuries of the church who were saying that prayers for the dead were to no avail?

Where does the joy of a faith so dead that the righteous saints are powerless come from?

Do you think that Satan would take great joy and comfort in a dead faith like that?

Do I pray to the saints? Yes!

I make no apology for it!

And I don’t curse any christians that have prayed for me–in fact if they hadn’t prayed for me I would probably be dead now.

Did their praying for me diminish Jesus?

No!

Does asking them to pray for me and not relying on my own prayers to God does that diminish Jesus?

No!

Who comes up with such a small mind that praying for others is considered bad? Why not get rid of all the protestant prayer meetings–tell everyone just to pray directly to God–of course He can hear all of our prayers but having others pray for us offends Him?

Exactly how does it Offend God when we ask the saints to intercede for us–does it make Him angry?

And how would keeping the saints from hearing our prayers make him happy? Are you going to tell me that he is glad to hear prayers from the living but the second a saint enters into heaven that He revels in restricting them from praying for others?

What kind of monster God is that?

And to top it all off perople who don’t even know what the scriptures are because they don’t listen to the church are going to tell us that they know better than that church that wrote the scriptures in the first place?

No–that is not good enough for me–that is dumb–and thanks be to God that he gave us a Church that is not restricted to the written scriptures by people who don’t even know what those scriptures are!

But I will promise everyone who doesn’t believe in praying for the dead this–I will pray for you until I die and I will pray for you after my death.

If God loves me and God loves you He will let me make those prayers and will listen to them.

Now does a God like that seem bad to you?

He does to Satan!

 

[Phil12123]

Milliardo:
I think the better question is, where is it forbidden to do so? It’s not there, either, is it?

All of the prayer promises are given to believers for praying to God and not to anyone else, whether saints or angels or whatever. That should tell us something. For example,

**Phil 4:
6. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7. and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. **

John 15:
16. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

1 John 3:
20. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
21. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
22. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

**1 John 5:
14. Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. **

Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Our Father in heaven…” He never taught them to pray to anyone other than God. So wouldn’t we be adding to the Scriptures something God did not Himself say, something God did not give us permission to do?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Maybe if the scriptures were limited to exclude the deuteroconnical books and maybe if sacred tradition wasn’t allowed.

Remember Jesus said “Greater things than I do you shall do”.

Can the narrow sola scripturaist mind fathom such a concept as that?

No! The same mind that can’t fathom Paul making up what is lacking in the Lord’s afflictions in Colosians 1:24 is also incapable of conceiving of praying for the dead!

God lets us share in the redemption of others–that’s the whole point–but look–if you won’t listen to Paul–and you won’t listen to the scriptures–then I guess you can rationalize the non participation in the redemption of others as an act of love!

 

[Phil12123]

Phil12123: would you have prayed to God for a dead person like Tabitha?

Would you have spoken to her while she was dead?

Evidently Peter’s prayer was “Good Enough” for God Almighty as Tabitha came back alive!

God wasn’t angry at Peter for praying for a dead person.

Wouldn’t even the protestant definition of saint include Tabitha?

Not only was God not angry for Peter praying for the dead Tabitha–He wasn’t angry at Peter for speaking to her–she did come back alive!

Now what part of her coming back to life do you not understand?

Now what part of her coming back to life is not “Good Enough” for you?

Did you read my posts? #54 and #59? Are you responding to them now with your questions above? What part of them would you like me to repeat? What part of them did you not understand?

 

[Phil12123]

The same mind that can’t fathom Paul making up what is lacking in the Lord’s afflictions in Colosians 1:24 is also incapable of conceiving of praying for the dead!

God lets us share in the redemption of others–that’s the whole point–but look–if you won’t listen to Paul–and you won’t listen to the scriptures–then I guess you can rationalize the non participation in the redemption of others as an act of love!

What exactly do you think was lacking in the Lord’s afflictions in Col. 1:24?

 

[Milliardo]

All of the prayer promises are given to believers for praying to God and not to anyone else, whether saints or angels or whatever.

You’re dancing around the question: where is it forbidden?

 

[Phil12123]

You’re dancing around the question: where is it forbidden?

How about the prohibition against communicating with the dead? I realize the souls of the deceased saints are alive in heaven, but so were the souls of the deceased OT saints, and yet God’s people were forbidden to communicate with them, right?

 

[Eileen_T]

How about the prohibition against communicating with the dead? I realize the souls of the deceased saints are alive in heaven, but so were the souls of the deceased OT saints, and yet God’s people were forbidden to communicate with them, right?

They weren’t in Heaven until after the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ,

Matt 22:32* I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.*

Scripture forbids a particular method of attempting to contact the dead, that of divination. Deut 18:10-11

A Scripture passage which shows that communication with specific people who have died is not sinful, is the example of Our Lord Himself. Matt. 19:1-4: And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli’jah.

Catholics do not pray to saints to ask them to predict the future or use any preternatural means. We pray for their help in praying to God for us. Those in Heaven are righteous and we are told in James 5:16 that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[guanophore]

All of the prayer promises are given to believers for praying to God and not to anyone else, whether saints or angels or whatever. That should tell us something. For example,

Phil 4:
6. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
7. and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

**John 15:
16. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father **in My name He may give you.

1 John 3:
20. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
21. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
22. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 5:
14. Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

Jesus taught His disciples to pray, “Our Father in heaven…” He never taught them to pray to anyone other than God. So wouldn’t we be adding to the Scriptures something God did not Himself say, something God did not give us permission to do?

No one is “adding” anything to the scriptures. The scriptures teach us that we are all members of One Body, and that all the parts of that body are connected to each other, and that the actions of one part affect all the other parts.

 

[guanophore]

What exactly do you think was lacking in the Lord’s afflictions in Col. 1:24?

It doesn;t really matter what we think was “lacking” (obviously, Christ’s sacrifice was fully sufficient). What matters is that the Holy Word of God and God’s appointed Apostle are teaching us that, by joining our sufferings with the sufferings of Christ, we can unite ourselves to HIm in His sacrificial death. This is how our daily suffering becomes redemptive. It is one of the ways the saints participate in the Work of God.

2 Cor 11:23-27
23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one - I am talking like a madman - with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.

We have no evidence that many of these sufferings were inflicted on the body of Jesus, but Paul, by his participation in the mystical body of Christ on earth, joins his sufferings with those of Christ on the cross.

Paul’s offerings on our behalf, and unity in the suffering of Christ on our behalf do not cease because he is on the other side of the veil.

How about the prohibition against communicating with the dead? I realize the souls of the deceased saints are alive in heaven, but so were the souls of the deceased OT saints, and yet God’s people were forbidden to communicate with them, right?

All are alive unto God. If it was forbidden, why did God allow Samuel to appear to Saul? Why did Elijah and Moses appear to Jesus, and speak with Him about his crucifixion?

What is forbidden is to place anyone before God, or to seek through divination, rather than trusting God.

 

[MariaG]

Doesn’t it say in Rev. 14:13 the following?

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them."

Sounds like what you are saying is, they never rest from their labors but continue them in heaven too.

Also, don’t all the passages relating to judgment of believers talk about deeds done in the body? Never is there talk of deeds done outside the body, like in heaven.

I stand corrected. It does indeed say they will rest from their labors.

But it also tells of them presenting the prayers to God in the book of Hebrews. So while they may rest from their labors, they do not retire from them. And it appears as if you believe they will retire from them?

And of course when it comes to judgment, we will be judged by our deeds done on earth. But that has little to do with what heaven will be like.

While I understand that people believe that once in heaven, we will no longer pray for others, because we will be “resting” or in a “soul sleep”, this does not take into account the rest of scripture that refers to things like the cloud of witnesses who present the prayers to God.

And maybe that is what the “rest” is from, the deeds done by which we will be judged?

All I know is the only way that is completely consistent with ALL scripture is that the saints in heaven do in fact continue to present prayers to God.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I did have a much longer answer, but I deleted it since I can see that this was answered very well by guanophore:thumbsup: . I will make a few comment though

“Resting”. Resting from the labors. Phil12123, you even compared these labors to the “deeds done in the body”. You clearly believe, as do we that we will no longer labor for the race, because we have already won.

But I do not believe that will find it hard or call it labor when we worship and pray to our God when we kneel in His presence do you?

You also seem to be mistaken about the nature of the “communion of Saints”. It is not that we look to the saints instead of Jesus, or even look to the saints in the same manner as we do God. We just treat them as if they were still alive and part of the body of Christ, which scripture tells us they are.

As for it not being in scripture, again, only if you discard the same books Luther did. And incidently, the REASON he discarded them was the same one that the Jews in 70AD used, it was not written origninally in Hebrew. But we now know that that is incorrect, and in fact there are fragments from the dead sea scrolls with those books written in Hebrew. So the REASON the were discarded was faulty.

As far as the scripture Phil 4, again, our requests are made known to God. How? Through prayer? How? Directly to God and through the prayers of the Saints.

Why do you divide the body of Christ?

We believe God answers prayers through saints (don’t you?), that all glory and honor belong to God. Our confidence is in God. But we do not divide the body of Christ and realize that we can ask for the prayers of all those alive in Christ.

The saints in heaven rest from the labor of the race for it has been won. But it is no laborous thing to worship and pray to Him when you kneel in His presence. Once in heaven, we will truly understand why the angels lay on their face and sing over and over “holy, holy, holy”

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus spoke with the dead–who cares about the Old Testament prohibition against it? That prohibition is as dead as the mosaic dietary laws!

 

[Phil12123]

They weren’t in Heaven until after the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ,

Matt 22:32* I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.*

Scripture forbids a particular method of attempting to contact the dead, that of divination. Deut 18:10-11

So, you’re saying that necromancy is not abomination as long as you talk to the dead yourself and don’t use a medium or diviner? Isn’t it more reasonable to say God wants us to talk to Him, not the dead?

A Scripture passage which shows that communication with specific people who have died is not sinful, is the example of Our Lord Himself. Matt. 17:1-4: And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli’jah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is well that we are here; if you wish, I will make three booths here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli’jah.

Apples and oranges. What happened in the Transfiguration cannot be compared with anything we do in praying, or not praying, to deceased saints. Jesus is God. Furthermore, Moses and Elijah were talking to Him, not vice versa. And if He did say anything to them it was not to get them to pray for Him, etc., as you see the purpose of praying to saints. He was showing the disciples who witnessed it a brief look at and preview of “the Son of man coming in His Kingdom” (Matt. 16:28).

Catholics do not pray to saints to ask them to predict the future or use any preternatural means. We pray for their help in praying to God for us. Those in Heaven are righteous and we are told in James 5:16 that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

**And you don’t see that it is a bit of a stretch to assume that St. Barnabas, for example, can hear a billion people all over the world praying to him all at once and know what each is praying, including the specific details of each prayer, to then pray for each of those people praying to him, to God. Two things come to mind. First, he would have to be omniscient, and secondly, he becomes a mediator between God and man, contrary to 1 Tim. 2:5.

Finally, the context of James 5:16 is as follows:**

**James 5:
14. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
16. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
17. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
18. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. **

**Clearly, you have Body ministry here, but it is all confined to members of the Body who are here “among you,” not departed and in heaven. Pray for one another, that you may be healed. Then it says, the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. Much what? Much results in someone’s being healed. Clearly this is not a verse that’s intended to have us pray to someone in heaven simply because someone there is righteous. The context dictates otherwise.

And it’s not a matter of “dividing” the Body. It is simply a matter of recognizing that what the Holy Spirit inspired the various writers to say is for the benefit of those in the Body who are still here looking through a glass darkly and functioning here on earth using their various gifts and callings as the Spirit intended them to be used, to edify or build up each member still running the race and still dealing with the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Peace**

 

[Phil12123]

Jesus spoke with the dead–who cares about the Old Testament prohibition against it? That prohibition is as dead as the mosaic dietary laws!

Not so. If necromancy was an “abomination” to God then, i.e., something He detests, did God change and now it’s fine and dandy and not sinful? The homosexuals might try to use such an argument but it’s not valid. Other such prohibitions which God called abomination include bestiality, listed in the same passage with homosexuality. Would you say that too is “as dead as the mosaic dietary laws”?