The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[TOP]

I’m not sure I understand your question. Neither of the cases you ask about involve anyone praying to saints. So how do they relate to the subject of this thread?

And you know they aren’t Saints how? Aren’t Saints eternal? Exp. St. Faustina was told she was an intercessor while still living and would be doing the same task in Heaven, as well as being told she was a Saint by St. Teresa. Thanks, Tim

 

[Calvinator]

Thanks for your post. I checked it out, and have come to the conclusion that my argument is not flawed. That is because what you are referring to is Lev. 11:10-12, and that dietary law says the people were to consider shellfish (or whatever it was) an “abomination unto you.” In other words, they were to detest the shellfish as far as it being something to eat. Obviously, an animal, which God created, is not an abomination to God. Homosexual acts, on the other hand, are detested by God, just as necromancy is, and both remain an abomination to HIM.

Also, for the Jews, that dietary law remains in force. For Christians, who are under the New Covenant, we have new instructions, namely, 1 Tim. 4:1-5.

Peace

You didn’t explain any of that in your first post.

Also, no one is under the dietary laws. The Jews simply deceive themselves if they cling to the law.

 

[onenow1]

**Yes, of course I believe in God’s omnipotence, although I think it might be His omniscience that you’re referring to.

But perhaps you’re missing the point. For example, are we supposed to pray to angels? What if I prayed to an angel and, for example, asked Gabriel to give God a message from me. I could argue, Gabriel brought a message to Mary, so why can’t I give Gabriel a message to give to God? God would still know and hear the request from me first, because of His omniscience. Does that mean it’s right to pray to an angel, just because God knows and hears it from me first? My point is, could it not be that God wants Himself** to be the first to hear it, not second hand. And if He is a loving, heavenly Father Who delights in hearing the prayers of His children, why not go directly to Him and present your petitions to HIM?

The other thing is that, many of the prayers to saints do not stop at, pray for me. They end up asking the saint for things that only God should be asked for, whether it’s strength to endure or healing a sickness or whatever. Sure, you might ask a saint to ask God to heal you, but is it right to ask the saint to heal you, or strengthen you or come to your aid or whatever? Should we ask St. Christopher to protect us on the highway, or God to do that? Is the prayer to St. Christopher, “Pray to God for my safety on the highway,” or is it, “Protect me, St. Christopher, on the highway”? Do you see the difference?

Hebrews. 13: 7, Remember leaders consider/imitate their lives.

1 John 3: 2, We shall be like him for we shall see him like he is.

2 Kings 13: 20-21, contact with elishas bones restored life.

Matt. 18:4-5 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the
greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me.

Joshua. 5: 14, Joshua fell prostrate in worship to an angel.

Comment: If I use your logic we should never ask anyone to pray for us.

Peace, OneNow1.

 

[joshua_b]

**As I said before, it’s not a matter of “dividing” the Body. It is simply a matter of recognizing that what the Holy Spirit inspired the various writers to say is for the benefit of those in the Body who are still here looking through a glass darkly and functioning here on earth using their various gifts and callings as the Spirit intended them to be used, to edify or build up each member still running the race and still dealing with the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Also, I truly wonder whether ALL glory and honor goes to God alone when a prayer to a deceased saint gets answered, at least for some Catholics. In Latin America I read where when they did not get their prayer to a particular saint answered, they would put the saint’s image in a shoe box, as a sort of punishment. So, I can imagine how they acted when a prayer was answered, exalting the saint, not glorifying God. You must admit that is a possible danger when instead of praying to God, someone prays to a saint. If you ONLY pray to God, there is no danger of anyone else getting any glory.

Peace**

This goes back to the heart of the issue I think. Without a sense of true worship, the word “worship” has been reduced to nothing more than “prayer” and warm-fuzzy feelings. If that is all you have, I think it’s really difficult to grasp in any sense the holiness and awesome powers and essence of God.

Lacking that, God becomes nothing more than a “prayer buddy” granting requests. Since that is all God is in their minds, the thought that anyone else who is a member of the Church Triumhant (which they also don’t understand and refuse to acknowledge for the same reasons) could actually do anything for them (even though Scripture tells us that they “share in God’s glory”) is suddenly a major threat to their very weak view of what God REALLY is.

I said it before, and I will say it again. The problem is not that the Catholic (AND ORTHODOX) hold the Saints in too high a regard; the real problem is that many others need to elevate their perception of God.

 

[icxc_nika]

As an interesting point to this discussion, I would like to ask those who protest against the Saints of the church, what they actually know of the origin of the word Saint. What does it actually mean???

This may be an interesting exercise for our RC brethren as well.

 

[CactusJack]

Good morning from Austin, Texas…

Having read through this entire thread I have a
few things I’d like to articulate…

We can argue back and forth about the matter of
going to the saints in the church triumphant for
intercessory prayer.

Or… we can simply stay with the ONE thing on
which we ALL AGREE.

I believe we ALL AGREE that praying to the Father,
in the Name of Jesus, IS completely scriptural and
is is not, in any way, outside of the apostolic
teaching.

Since I have no assurance that my prayers to
anyone other than the Father, through Jesus, have
any effect I will go in the pattern of Jesus and
the apostles.

If this divides me from some believers, so be it.

The strange thing with this whole discussion is that
my Catholic brethren are in TOTAL agreement
with me that it is right and effectual to go in prayer
to the Father. But as soon as I say that I will not
attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the
blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to
suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic. And, as I said earlier, we are
in complete agreement on the matter of praying
to the Father… the Father, in heaven, who we
know for sure hears our prayers and supplications!

So my question at this point is…

Is it herectical to pray only to the Father, in heaven?

Since I was baptized into the Catholic church 62
years ago, educated for 16 years in Catholic
schools, culminating with a minor in philosophy,
from Boston College, I am not unaware of the
practices and traditions taught in the church.

This very discussion, 12 years ago, with my pastor,
Fr. McCabe, and bishop, John McCarthy, resulted
in some of the most adverse, sarcastic and
insulting responses I have ever received. And,
this, after I had taught CCD for seven years.

And finally… I, in no way, judge or condemn my
brethren for praying to/through the saints or Mary.
That is between them and God, who is their true
teacher through the ministry/anointing of the Holy
Spirit, whom Jesus said would come after Him to
teach all truth, in accordance with His teachings.

Perhaps some will say that poor Cactus Jack is
missing out on the full benefit of Catholic teaching
and practice which lies in the fullness of the
Catholic church. I understand…

Scripture tells me that the “fulness of the Godhead
is in Jesus Christ.” Going to Him seems good
enough for me and anyone else, in my limited
understanding.

Peace and blessing to all who have taken the time
to endure this post…

bro Jack

 

[mikeledes]

I’m a late comer to this thread, but the following verse has probably been used:

Revelation 5:8

**8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. **

The 24 elders are described as sitting on thrones and wearing golden crowns. That is the paraphenalia of kings and thus they are royal. They are also depicted as offering incense, a* priestly * function. Thus they are royal priests. The number 24 points to two things. Its a combination of the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel. It is also points to the 24 divisions of the Old Covenant priesthood (1 Chronicles 24:1-20). So who are the 24 elders? They are a royal priesthood and we all know that can only refer to the people of God. The number 24 means that the 24 elders represents all of the people of God in heaven. The fact that they offer the prayers of Christians on earth to God indicates a communion between the saints on earth and the saints in heaven (i.e. the communion of saints). Since the Book of Revelation is a book that uses symbolism to express literal truths, the 24 elders offering our prayers can only mean intercession. Notice that they are not playing a passive role, merely listening to our prayers. They are actively offering our prayers.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[I_Leatherman]

Good morning from Austin, Texas…

Having read through this entire thread I have a
few things I’d like to articulate…

We can argue back and forth about the matter of
going to the saints in the church triumphant for
intercessory prayer.

Or… we can simply stay with the ONE thing on
which we ALL AGREE.

I believe we ALL AGREE that praying to the Father,
in the Name of Jesus, IS completely scriptural and
is is not, in any way, outside of the apostolic
teaching.

Since I have no assurance that my prayers to
anyone other than the Father, through Jesus, have
any effect I will go in the pattern of Jesus and
the apostles.

If this divides me from some believers, so be it.

The strange thing with this whole discussion is that
my Catholic brethren are in TOTAL agreement
with me that it is right and effectual to go in prayer
to the Father. But as soon as I say that I will not
attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the
blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to
suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic. And, as I said earlier, we are
in complete agreement on the matter of praying
to the Father… the Father, in heaven, who we
know for sure hears our prayers and supplications!

So my question at this point is…

Is it herectical to pray only to the Father, in heaven?

Since I was baptized into the Catholic church 62
years ago, educated for 16 years in Catholic
schools, culminating with a minor in philosophy,
from Boston College, I am not unaware of the
practices and traditions taught in the church.

This very discussion, 12 years ago, with my pastor,
Fr. McCabe, and bishop, John McCarthy, resulted
in some of the most adverse, sarcastic and
insulting responses I have ever received. And,
this, after I had taught CCD for seven years.

And finally… I, in no way, judge or condemn my
brethren for praying to/through the saints or Mary.
That is between them and God, who is their true
teacher through the ministry/anointing of the Holy
Spirit, whom Jesus said would come after Him to
teach all truth, in accordance with His teachings.

Perhaps some will say that poor Cactus Jack is
missing out on the full benefit of Catholic teaching
and practice which lies in the fullness of the
Catholic church. I understand…

Scripture tells me that the “fulness of the Godhead
is in Jesus Christ.” Going to Him seems good
enough for me and anyone else, in my limited
understanding.

Peace and blessing to all who have taken the time
to endure this post…

bro Jack

Only one thought, if one is Catholic, then they by being Catholic implicitly accept that the Churches Authority is Christs Authority. Its hard to kick against His Authority, even though I’m not aware that any Catholic has ever been forced to pray to anyone at all.

 

[joshua_b]

Since I have no assurance that my prayers to
anyone other than the Father, through Jesus, have
any effect I will go in the pattern of Jesus and
the apostles.

If this divides me from some believers, so be it.

The strange thing with this whole discussion is that
my Catholic brethren are in TOTAL agreement
with me that it is right and effectual to go in prayer
to the Father. But as soon as I say that I will not
attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the
blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to
suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic.

Is it herectical to pray only to the Father, in heaven?

This very discussion, 12 years ago, with my pastor,
Fr. McCabe, and bishop, John McCarthy, resulted
in some of the most adverse, sarcastic and
insulting responses I have ever received. And,
this, after I had taught CCD for seven years.

And finally… I, in no way, judge or condemn my
brethren for praying to/through the saints or Mary.
That is between them and God, who is their true
teacher through the ministry/anointing of the Holy
Spirit, whom Jesus said would come after Him to
teach all truth, in accordance with His teachings.

Scripture tells me that the “fulness of the Godhead
is in Jesus Christ.” Going to Him seems good
enough for me and anyone else, in my limited
understanding.

Peace and blessing to all who have taken the time
to endure this post…

bro Jack

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut Jack. Sincere and well thought comments are always appreciated by me.

I think what you say sort of shifts the true focus of the discussion.

First, teaching CCD you should know that we DO have an assurance that the Saints can hear our prayers. We have that assurance through the Sacred Tradition that is Apostolic teaching. This teaching and practice of the ancient Church is attested to by many sources outside of Scriputre (such as secular archaeological evidence, etc.) and there was never any evidence of objection to the practice prior to about 500 years ago, so ultimately, to say the “pattern of the Apostles” was to pray only straight to God through Jesus is not really academically accurate.

As far as the reaction you recieved from various individuals on your declaration that you not engage in private devotions…there really isn’t much I can say about that. The official teaching of the Church is that our devotions to the Saints are beneficial but not “necessary”. Having taught CCD, I’m sure you are well aware of this, as well as indicating what the response of humble practicing Catholics would be. All I can say is that there are (and always will be) Catholics who are “holier than the pope” and want to impose their own private interpretation of official Church teaching on the rest of us.

You are right in your assertion that the fullness of the Godhead, and thus the fullness of Truth is in Jesus Christ. I think maybe you stopped a bit short though, because since the resurrection, Christ is found in His body…the Church, which is the pillar and bulwark of ALL Truth. Christ gave us a Church through which he maintains His presence among us, and that same Church that is his body has ALWAYS maintained the practice of praying to the Saints,so I don’t see any reason to second-guess the wisdom of 2000 years of people much holier, more pious, and more intelligent than myself.

While I appreciate your comments and sincerity, I disagree with your position. Thats neither here nor there however. We can agree to disagree. The one thing that is unacceptable to me, however, is those individuals who absolutely REFUSE to accept the reality that this practice is perfectly acceptable to God, and choose to instead perform all sorts of mental gymnastics and deny historically verifiable fact in an effort to substitute their own reality on the matter in order to justify their own theological prejudices and preconceptions.

 

[icxc_nika]

Good morning from Austin, Texas…

Having read through this entire thread I have a
few things I’d like to articulate…

We can argue back and forth about the matter of
going to the saints in the church triumphant for
intercessory prayer.

Or… we can simply stay with the ONE thing on
which we ALL AGREE.

I believe we ALL AGREE that praying to the Father,
in the Name of Jesus, IS completely scriptural and
is is not, in any way, outside of the apostolic
teaching.

Since I have no assurance that my prayers to
anyone other than the Father, through Jesus, have
any effect I will go in the pattern of Jesus and
the apostles.

If this divides me from some believers, so be it.

The strange thing with this whole discussion is that
my Catholic brethren are in TOTAL agreement
with me that it is right and effectual to go in prayer
to the Father. But as soon as I say that I will not
attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the
blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to
suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic. And, as I said earlier, we are
in complete agreement on the matter of praying
to the Father… the Father, in heaven, who we
know for sure hears our prayers and supplications!

So my question at this point is…

Is it herectical to pray only to the Father, in heaven?

Since I was baptized into the Catholic church 62
years ago, educated for 16 years in Catholic
schools, culminating with a minor in philosophy,
from Boston College, I am not unaware of the
practices and traditions taught in the church.

This very discussion, 12 years ago, with my pastor,
Fr. McCabe, and bishop, John McCarthy, resulted
in some of the most adverse, sarcastic and
insulting responses I have ever received. And,
this, after I had taught CCD for seven years.

And finally… I, in no way, judge or condemn my
brethren for praying to/through the saints or Mary.
That is between them and God, who is their true
teacher through the ministry/anointing of the Holy
Spirit, whom Jesus said would come after Him to
teach all truth, in accordance with His teachings.

Perhaps some will say that poor Cactus Jack is
missing out on the full benefit of Catholic teaching
and practice which lies in the fullness of the
Catholic church. I understand…

Scripture tells me that the “fulness of the Godhead
is in Jesus Christ.” Going to Him seems good
enough for me and anyone else, in my limited
understanding.

Peace and blessing to all who have taken the time
to endure this post…

bro Jack

Jack–

Thanks for the comments.

The issue that I have with your post would come under the umbrella of church teachings.

As already mentioned, I do not believe that anyone would accuse anyone of being a heretic if they chose not to pray to the saints.

The problem is… why wouldn’t they?
They are the role models for all of us!
Their miracles in evangilizing, in preaching, taking the leg of a cadaver and grafting it to a person who lost a limb, being burned alive and not suffering from a single wound. The same people who decide not to pray to the most obedient, and holy role models, are the same ones who deny that you, I, and them are any different from the saints. tThey wish to believe that we are all saints on the same level.

So ultimately I do not have a problem with those who chose not to pray to the saints… it however tends to go hand in hand with those who reject most of the other teachings of the church.

 

[sisterbell]

This is in response to Joshua b’s comment re Orthodox not venerating the saints. I think that if you were to read more about/attend an Othodox Liturgy, you would learn that, in the Orthodox Faith, Mary and the saints are venerated, as in the Western Church. Lumping Orthodox together with Protestants indicates a lack of knowledge in the area.

 

[joshua_b]

This is in response to Joshua b’s comment re Orthodox not venerating the saints. I think that if you were to read more about/attend an Othodox Liturgy, you would learn that, in the Orthodox Faith, Mary and the saints are venerated, as in the Western Church. Lumping Orthodox together with Protestants indicates a lack of knowledge in the area.

My apologies (again…I have already been “corrected” once on this point) if anyone misinterpreted what I have posted. I am (and was prior to posting) very aware of Orthodox theology and practices in regard to Mary and the other Saints. Unfortunately, I’m not always articulate or intelligent enough to convey what little information is contained in my brain.

Thanks again, for keeping me on my toes and reminding me that while in the midst of my ranting that I need to strive to be more concise.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled debate…

 

[avflf]

What verse is it that tells us we are to pray to God alone ? I know of quite a few verses dealing with eternal life, sharing in God’s glory, and being alive in Christ, but I don’t recall a verse saying that we are to only pray to God.

Jesus talking:
(Joh 14:13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

(Joh 14:14) * If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it*.

(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

(Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

(Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

There seems to be no referrence to any other name or intermediary agent.

 

[joshua_b]

Jesus talking:
(Joh 14:13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

(Joh 14:14) * If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it*.

(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

(Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

(Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

There seems to be no referrence to any other name or intermediary agent.

And 2000 years of Catholic teaching would agree with that, however, “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and I can’t think of anyone more righteous than someone who has died and is in the presence of God in heaven, “sharing in His glory”, they are certainly more righteous than I can pretend to be, so with all that being said…where is the verse that says we are to ONLY pray to God directly ?

I have already established that this was a practice of the ancient Christian church, and the writers of Scripture were ALL silent on the practice…not once was it ever corrected. I never claimed that private devotions to the Saints are essential, only that they are certainly within the realm of legitimate Christian practice.

Anything the Saints would do for us, they do only through the power of God.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…The one thing that is unacceptable to me, however, is those individuals who absolutely REFUSE to accept the reality that this practice is perfectly acceptable to God, and choose to instead perform all sorts of mental gymnastics and deny historically verifiable fact in an effort to substitute their own reality on the matter in order to justify their own theological prejudices and preconceptions.

Well, it is not a reasonable choice. It is an emotional choice. One might benefit by asking what emotional purpose such defence of theological prejudices and preconceptions serves.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Jesus talking:
(Joh 14:13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

(Joh 14:14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

(Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

(Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

There seems to be no referrence to any other name or intermediary agent.

Of course not. You have left out the references which do not support your position.

 

[avflf]

joshua_b:

And 2000 years of Catholic teaching would agree with that, however, “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and I can’t think of anyone more righteous than someone who has died and is in the presence of God in heaven, “sharing in His glory”, they are certainly more righteous than I can pretend to be, so with all that being said…where is the verse that says we are to ONLY pray to God directly ?

I have already established that this was a practice of the ancient Christian church, and the writers of Scripture were ALL silent on the practice…not once was it ever corrected. I never claimed that private devotions to the Saints are essential, only that they are certainly within the realm of legitimate Christian practice.

Anything the Saints would do for us, they do only through the power of God.

If Jesus stated that he is the intermediary, praying to God in the name of a saint availeth nothing; “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” only means that a prayer to God, thru Christ, of such a person will have results. There is no mention of any other form of intersession. And if, as you state, the Church has agreed for 2000 years with praying to the Father in the name of Jesus why settle for anything less? Why talk to the Servants when you can speak directly to the Master of the House?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

… As already mentioned, I do not believe that anyone would accuse anyone of being a heretic if they chose not to pray to the saints. The problem is… why wouldn’t they? They are the role models for all of us! …

Maybe it is because some Protestants believe that the Saints are dead. So can anyone illuminate us as to the time line? When are the Saints brought into the Presence of God, for it is in the Presence of God that they come alive, is it not?

Can Protestants demonstrate that the Saints whom Catholic ask for intercession are dead?

Can Catholics demonstrate that they are alive? And if Protestants are willing to admit that – at some time – the Saints come alive to God, then what is that time?

 

[I_Leatherman]

… There is no mention of any other form of intersession. And if, as you state, the Church has agreed for 2000 years with praying to the Father in the name of Jesus why settle for anything less? Why talk to the Servants when you can speak directly to the Master of the House?

The servants are with their Master, all hear you when the Master says “…I live in you and you in Me and I in the Father…”

Was prayer to the Saints in contention at the start of the reformation, I honestly don’t know, - is no prayer to the Saints a new doctrine?

 

[avflf]

Of course not. You have left out the references which do not support your position.

And these are … ?