The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[avflf]

The servants are with their Master, all hear you when the Master says “…I live in you and you in Me and I in the Father…”

Was prayer to the Saints in contention at the start of the reformation, I honestly don’t know, - is no prayer to the Saints a new doctrine?

You are surmising here that the saints are also telepathic and hear your silent prayers, which you know it is given only to God to know what’s in men’s hearts.
As to the *no prayer to the saints *being a new doctrine - no, it is a doctrine of great antiquity, from the days Jesus walked the Earth. In fact you never heard of anyone in the Old Testament praying to Adam and Eve, or Enoch. They prayed to God directly.

 

[LilyM]

You are surmising here that the saints are also telepathic and hear your silent prayers, which you know it is given only to God to know what’s in men’s hearts.
As to the *no prayer to the saints *being a new doctrine - no, it is a doctrine of great antiquity, from the days Jesus walked the Earth.

John, while very much alive, was given a vision in Revelation - of not only the end of the world but of ALL CREATURES in heaven, on earth and under the earth simultaneously. He saw and heard them all at once. No telepathy required, just God’s grace.

And if no prayer to saints was an apostolic doctrine then why oh why are prayers to the dead inscribed on the walls of the earliest Roman catacombs?

And why were the bones of Polycarp, the Apostle John’s own disciple, gathered up and carefully kept after he was martyred, and revered as being ‘more precious than gold’ (read the Martyrdom of Polycarp - which was written at the time of his martyrdom or only a few years after)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

And these are … ?

And these are the references already posted on this thread. You might want to read those and address your comments directly to those.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

avflf:

And if, as you state, the Church has agreed for 2000 years with praying to the Father in the name of Jesus why settle for anything less? Why talk to the Servants when you can speak directly to the Master of the House?

Why talk to me when you can speak directly to the Master of the House? Why talk to anyone but God? Thoughts anyone? Why should we talk to each other?

 

[I_Leatherman]

You are surmising here that the saints are also telepathic and hear your silent prayers, which you know it is given only to God to know what’s in men’s hearts.
As to the *no prayer to the saints *being a new doctrine - no, it is a doctrine of great antiquity, from the days Jesus walked the Earth.

I’m not surmising or guessing. I believe just what He said. People live in Him and He lives in them and He in the Father. If I lived in you I would know what you think because that is a function of living in you. A prayer to the Saints is also a prayer to God; they hear because He hears and He hears their prayers for us.
I would like to know what the reformer M.Luther thought of prayer to Saints, maybe he agreed, maybe not - I don’t know. Are you not interested in the origin and age of this no-prayer-to-saints doctrine?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

avflf:

You are surmising here that the saints are also telepathic and hear your silent prayers, which you know it is given only to God to know what’s in men’s hearts.

Where did he say ‘telepathic’? Is this a strawman?

avflf:

As to the *no prayer to the saints *being a new doctrine - no, it is a doctrine of great antiquity, from the days Jesus walked the Earth.

Demonstrate this please.

avflf:

In fact you never heard of anyone in the Old Testament praying to Adam and Eve, or Enoch. They prayed to God directly.

What about the New Testament?

 

[LilyM]

If Jesus stated that he is the intermediary, praying to God in the name of a saint availeth nothing; “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” only means that a prayer to God, thru Christ, of such a person will have results. There is no mention of any other form of intersession. And if, as you state, the Church has agreed for 2000 years with praying to the Father in the name of Jesus why settle for anything less? Why talk to the Servants when you can speak directly to the Master of the House?

Praying with and through the saints is exactly that - the prayers of a righteous person. Where do you get the idea that a member of the Body of Christ who is in heaven, but never ceases to be a member of that body, cares nothing for the other members any more?

On the contrary, they are a ‘cloud of witnesses’ watching every moment of our lives. How can you doubt that they intercede for us even from heaven? They are still and equally members of Christ’s body along with us - still having an interest in all other members.

It is clear that the dead both see and pray about earthly events from Revelation 6:

"9. And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

1. and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood **on those who dwell on the earth?” **

So they see, care about and pray about what happens on earth - what makes you think they suddenly turn deaf and mute when we ask for their prayers then?

 

[louise777]

I Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”

Yes, we are “surrounded by” a great cloud of witnesses. But that does not mean we are supposed to pray to them. We pray to God through Jesus and we talk with one another through the mediation of Jesus, also, since truth ought always to be spoken in love.

 

[water]

When I had a thread asking if “Love” stops when people go to Heaven - nobody answered that.

Of course, Love lasts forever - if one can pray to God for me while on Earth, one will not stop praying for me when he/she is in Heaven - That is the beauty of Communion of Saints - that is the Love of God - and God can certainly allow those in Heaven to know what we ask of them.

 

[LilyM]

Why talk to me when you can speak directly to the Master of the House? Why talk to anyone but God? Thoughts anyone? Why should we talk to each other?

I’m definitely not talking to you any more then Ani :dts:

No one but God for me, everyone else is a useless bit of detritus just getting in the way of me and God.

Never mind that he created them, that they are his children in heaven just as much as on earth, that he loves them just as much and that they were commanded to intercede while on earth by Paul.

 

[joshua_b]

If Jesus stated that he is the intermediary, praying to God in the name of a saint availeth nothing; “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” only means that a prayer to God, thru Christ, of such a person will have results. There is no mention of any other form of intersession. And if, as you state, the Church has agreed for 2000 years with praying to the Father in the name of Jesus why settle for anything less? Why talk to the Servants when you can speak directly to the Master of the House?

This is where our perceptions simply differ…not necessarily into “right” or “wrong” but simply “different”.

The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and having someone in God’s presence pray for me will definitely have results…it has happened to me more than once.

Praying to the Saints is not about a different “form of intercession”, but having someone who, since they now share in the Glory of God, can ask Jesus to interceed for me in a much more effectual way than I ever could. Praying to the Saints is not “settling for less”…it is asking for all of the help I can get. There is great power in both group and intercessory prayer.

God’s ways are not our ways, and I choose not to place limits on how He can operate.

 

[LilyM]

I Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”

Yes, we are “surrounded by” a great cloud of witnesses. But that does not mean we are supposed to pray to them. We pray to God through Jesus and we talk with one another through the mediation of Jesus, also, since truth ought always to be spoken in love.

WHY OH WHY then are we not just told, but commanded, by Jesus and Paul, and Peter and James and the other writers of the Epistles, to pray with, through and for each other whilst on earth?

Why not just pray to God here too and forget everyone else that we pray for and with? The fact is it is part and parcel of being a child of God, whether in heaven or on earth, that you care for and pray for and with His other children. All are one in Christ, equally the Father’s children, so in that sense there is no divide between the living and the righteous dead.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”

Yes, we are “surrounded by” a great cloud of witnesses. But that does not mean we are supposed to pray to them. We pray to God through Jesus and we talk with one another through the mediation of Jesus, also, since truth ought always to be spoken in love.

Lily is saying that folks did pray to them and there was no problem with praying with them. Just because folks ask the Saints to pray for them does not mean that those folks believe those Saints to be the One Mediator between God and men. If this were so, then you would have to stop asking others in your church to pray with you. Would this not be against what Jesus advised you to do?

You see what you are doing is unilaterally and without grounds deciding that

a) the Saints are dead and
b) to ask them to pray with you is making them into the One Mediator between God and man.

If it clarifies anything, I never ask for a Saint to pray with me unless I also have Jesus clearly in our company already. For me, Jesus is not a distant entity that can only be reached by means of a Saintly intercessor. He is close and present; standing beside the Saints and standing beside me. The Saints and I share a moment of reverence in the Presence of the Lord.

If we were not meant to benefit from the lives of the Saints then why did Jesus say “Greater things than these will you do” after he showed the people miracles?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

LilyM:

I’m definitely not talking to you any more then Ani :dts:

:crying: :crying: :crying: Ani hurt.

I just noticed that we don’t have a pouty smiley.

 

[louise777]

WHY OH WHY then are we not just told, but commanded, by Jesus and Paul, and Peter and James and the other writers of the Epistles, to pray with, through and for each other whilst on earth?

Why not just pray to God here too and forget everyone else that we pray for and with? The fact is it is part and parcel of being a child of God, whether in heaven or on earth, that you care for and pray for and with His other children. All are one in Christ, equally the Father’s children, so in that sense there is no divide between the living and the righteous dead.

I don’t see pray “through” when I read Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. There is only one mediator. But we must pray for one another on earth while we live, of course.

 

[louise777]

Lily is saying that folks did pray to them and there was no problem with praying with them. Just because folks ask the Saints to pray for them does not mean that those folks believe those Saints to be the One Mediator between God and men. If this were so, then you would have to stop asking others in your church to pray with you. Would this not be against what Jesus advised you to do?

You see what you are doing is unilaterally and without grounds deciding that

a) the Saints are dead and
b) to ask them to pray with you is making them into the One Mediator between God and man.

If it clarifies anything, I never ask for a Saint to pray with me unless I also have Jesus clearly in our company already. For me, Jesus is not a distant entity that can only be reached by means of a Saintly intercessor. He is close and present; standing beside the Saints and standing beside me. The Saints and I share a moment of reverence in the Presence of the Lord.

If we were not meant to benefit from the lives of the Saints then why did Jesus say “Greater things than these will you do” after he showed the people miracles?

Our difference lies, then, in the distinctions between “mediator” and “intercessor.”

 

[avflf]

John, while very much alive, was given a vision in Revelation - of not only the end of the world but of ALL CREATURES in heaven, on earth and under the earth simultaneously. He saw and heard them all at once. No telepathy required, just God’s grace.

And if no prayer to saints was an apostolic doctrine then why oh why are prayers to the dead inscribed on the walls of the earliest Roman catacombs?

And why were the bones of Polycarp, the Apostle John’s own disciple, gathered up and carefully kept after he was martyred, and revered as being ‘more precious than gold’ (read the Martyrdom of Polycarp - which was written at the time of his martyrdom or only a few years after)

What does “revelation” got to do with “intersession”? You are confusing the meaning of the words.
If what you say is correct, just because by the time those poor souls were being persecuted a belief existed in praying to (or is it ‘for’?) the dead (not necessarily a saint or even a christian) does that put a divine seal of approval on the practice? I think not.
As to Polycarp’s bones … Now, here was a true saint, fire could not kill him so he had to be stabbed first and then burnt. A fabulous story that was believed by many. No wonder they held his remains in such high esteem.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

No one but God for me, everyone else is a useless bit of detritus just getting in the way of me and God.

Can you imagine establishing a whole Church on useless bits of detritus?

D-oh! I’ve been gulled. :crying:

Well maybe not. Nobody’s perfect, eh? Except for Our Lord Who established this Church. He must have known what He was doing.

Ani happy now

 

[water]

I don’t see pray “through” when I read Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. There is only one mediator. But we must pray for one another on earth while we live, of course.

Hi Louise,

You are new member! Welcome to CAF. I hope you like it here.

When you said “there is one mediator”? for whom this Mediator is for?

What stops one in Heaven from praying for his brothers and sisters who still live on Earth but are part of One Body?

Thanks!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

avflf:

What does “revelation” got to do with “intersession”? You are confusing the meaning of the words.

Lily is referring to the Book of Revelation. You know, the book at the end of the Bible?