The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[christcnection1]

John, while very much alive, was given a vision in Revelation - of not only the end of the world but of ALL CREATURES in heaven, on earth and under the earth simultaneously. He saw and heard them all at once. No telepathy required, just God’s grace.

And if no prayer to saints was an apostolic doctrine then why oh why are prayers to the dead inscribed on the walls of the earliest Roman catacombs?

And why were the bones of Polycarp, the Apostle John’s own disciple, gathered up and carefully kept after he was martyred, and revered as being ‘more precious than gold’ (read the Martyrdom of Polycarp - which was written at the time of his martyrdom or only a few years after)

That’s because God allowed His people to walk in darkness immediately after the apostolic age and for an approximately another 1,500 years until the Reformation. Remember LilyM, we are not just talking prayers for the dead, we are talking about a whole litany of heretical beliefs.

God bless you LilyM; I love your posts.​

Folks, if you believe that the Holy Spirit planned to lead His people into all truth, then I think it’s reasonable to suggest He intended to do it for more than a half a century. Otherwise, that promise was only good for a generation or so, if you reject the majority ECFs, and Apostolic authority (which is clearly taught in in the Bible.)

If God planned Sola Scriptura from the beginning, He could have managed to ensure it would have happened. The Church was built on Sacred Tradition, Holy Scripture (mostly OT at the time), and Apostolic authority, just as the early Church believed.

Remember that those who recognized which books belonged in the NT believed in prayers for the dead (and countless other Catholic things). If they didn’t find it Anti-Biblical, this is ample reason to suggest you should not either. If not, then God selected a bunch of ignoramuses to help birth the NT.​

another point…

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

This is intercession from an angel; however, we know that after humans go to be with the Lord they “are as the angels of God in heaven.” (Matthew 22:30)

If they are as angels, would they not have the same responsibilties (if not similar) to ones as angels? Jesus doesn’t say that they are only like angels in that they are not married. No! He says, they are “as the angels of God in heaven.”

Can you imagine being with the angels of God in heaven and them not telling you what’s happening on earth? Wouldn’t you want to know? Wouldn’t you want to pray for your loved ones? If God is love, then I can’t see Him refusing this request.

 

[MariaG]

Jesus spoke with the dead–who cares about the Old Testament prohibition against it? That prohibition is as dead as the mosaic dietary laws!

Not so. If necromancy was an “abomination” to God then, i.e., something He detests, did God change and now it’s fine and dandy and not sinful? The homosexuals might try to use such an argument but it’s not valid. Other such prohibitions which God called abomination include bestiality, listed in the same passage with homosexuality. Would you say that too is “as dead as the mosaic dietary laws”?

I am afraid I need to agree here with Phil. We are not supposed to seek to communicate with the dead. This is quite clear. Seeking knowledge of the future through communcating with the dead is strictly forbidden. The only reason the dietary laws are no longer there is because Peter was given a vision from God showing that the is no unclean food, and through the power given to him by Christ to make and change the rules, Peter changed that rule. Nowhere has the CAtholic Church changed the rule about communcating with the dead. And Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

HOWEVER,

It is also quite clear that those who are part of the body of Christ, are not dead, but alive

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I don’t see pray “through” when I read Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. There is only one mediator. But we must pray for one another on earth while we live, of course.

While we live. Why not after we die and live again? How do you justify saying that folks no longer living in the World cannot pray?

 

[epostle]

If you don’t believe in praying to saints, then don’t.
But if you don’t believe in praying to saints, you have no right to say your 400 year old man made invention is correct, and our 2000 year old Tradition is wrong.

Protestants don’t accept intercession of the saints because they have an unbiblical view of heaven and earth. The family of God in heaven, to them, is unbiblically separate from the family of God on earth. This is wrong because we are one family in Christ, not 2 separate families. To reject ONE family in heaven and on earth is to reject Eph. 3:14-15.

Protestants pay lip service to “the communion of saints” in the Apostles Creed because there can be no communion without a union. They must be selective about what the Church Fathers taught about what this Creed meant, or reject it altogether, which many lower church Protestants do.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator. (but many Protestants reject participation in the redemption as well, contrary to the Bible and Jesus’ teachings to carry our crosses. )

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rejection of the intercessions of saints, which has been part of Christianity since the beginning, reveals a less loving Father.

How sad.

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus talking:
(Joh 14:13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

(Joh 14:14) * If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it*.

(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

(Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

(Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

There seems to be no referrence to any other name or intermediary agent.

James 5:16

16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Philemon 22

22 But, meanwhile, also prepare a guest room for me, for I trust that through your prayers I shall be granted to you.

Hebrews 13:18-19

18 Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. 19 But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Philippians 1:19

19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Revelation 5:8

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

No intermediary agents other than Jesus? Sure don’t sound like it to me. I guess you never ask anyone to pray for you.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I’m a late comer to this thread, but the following verse has probably been used:

Revelation 5:8

**8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. **

The 24 elders are described as sitting on thrones and wearing golden crowns. That is the paraphenalia of kings and thus they are royal. They are also depicted as offering incense, a* priestly * function. Thus they are royal priests. The number 24 points to two things. Its a combination of the 12 apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel. It is also points to the 24 divisions of the Old Covenant priesthood (1 Chronicles 24:1-20). So who are the 24 elders? They are a royal priesthood and we all know that can only refer to the people of God. The number 24 means that the 24 elders represents all of the people of God in heaven. The fact that they offer the prayers of Christians on earth to God indicates a communion between the saints on earth and the saints in heaven (i.e. the communion of saints). Since the Book of Revelation is a book that uses symbolism to express literal truths, the 24 elders offering our prayers can only mean intercession. Notice that they are not playing a passive role, merely listening to our prayers. They are actively offering our prayers.

God Bless,
Michael

I reaffirm what I said in the above post.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Ani_Ibi]

If you don’t believe in praying to saints, then don’t.
But if you don’t believe in praying to saints, you have no right to say your 400 year old man made invention is correct, and our 2000 year old Tradition is wrong.

And that’s the crux of the matter. It is not a question of what can reasonably said. It is a question of the emotional baggage brought against the teachings of the Church. It is this either/or thinking that leads some Protestants astray when attempting to learn what the Church teaches. The Church quite often uses a both/and approach.

 

[avflf]

This is where our perceptions simply differ…not necessarily into “right” or “wrong” but simply “different”.

The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and having someone in God’s presence pray for me will definitely have results…it has happened to me more than once.

Praying to the Saints is not about a different “form of intercession”, but having someone who, since they now share in the Glory of God, can ask Jesus to interceed for me in a much more effectual way than I ever could. **Praying to the Saints is not “settling for less”…it is asking for all of the help I can get. **There is great power in both group and intercessory prayer.

God’s ways are not our ways, and I choose not to place limits on how He can operate.

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone, so you have to pray to dead humans to help you get the message to God, or to add weight to you requests? OK, if it works for you who am I to disagree? .

 

[water]

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone, so you have to pray to dead humans to help you get the message to God, or to add weight to you requests? OK, if it works for you who am I to disagree? .

What you mean “dead humans”?
The “Dead” know a lot more than the “Living”.
The “Dead” can see God face to face.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Our difference lies, then, in the distinctions between “mediator” and “intercessor.”

Please say what those distinctions are. Thankyou.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

avflf:

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone

Did Jesus say to pray alone?

avflf:

so you have to pray to dead humans

Are Saints dead humans? If so, please say when they die. Do they remain dead?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

No one but God for me, everyone else is a useless bit of detritus just getting in the way of me and God.

I found this on another thread and it seemed apropros:

I guess under Kaycee the church would never have anything built but its cornerstone.

 

[MariaG]

You’re quite correct, our worship will certainly not be “labor” which would indeed refer only to deeds done in the body. I was making the statement re. resting from labors when answering a post by someone who said members of the Body continue in heaven the gifts and callings they had on earth. Would you not agree that is erroneous or unscriptural?

No, I don’t agree. I don’t believe that anykind of prayer in heaven can be equated to “labor” and if a person used to be able to pray for someone and they were healed, through the gift of healing, they will continue to do so in heaven.

As far as saints in heaven interceding for saints on earth, can you think of any scripture that supports that? Rev. 6:9-10 has the souls under the altar asking God, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?’’ But they don’t seem to be praying for believers still on earth.

Yes, I can Otherwise I would not do so.

These are Jesus’ words about men in heaven. We are like angels in heaven. There are many passages of what the angels in heaven are doing, praying to God and presenting the prayers of the saints. I suppose you could narrowly interpret this to mean that we are ONLY like angels in that we will no longer be married to anyone, as angels are not married to anyone, but that would be a different and new interpretation of men that is not consistent with early Christianity.

:bible1: Mk 12:25 25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Another verse that is more specific to men is Hebrews and the “cloud of witnesses”. The Catholic Church interprets this as to what the Saints in heaven are doing. And this interpretation is consistent with Sacred Oral Tradtion which were are told to hold fast to.

:bible1: Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

Perhaps, but do we know where that expression came from and what was originally meant by it? It is not a biblical expression, as such. Could it not have meant simply the communion or fellowship that believers have between and among themselves HERE while still in the body (the physical body), with no reference whatever to those who have left the body and are now in heaven? It seems the “communion” or fellowship of those in heaven would be more between themselves there, not with us here. Though they may be cheering us on, in our race, their state there is distinctly different, with angels and the very throne of God Himself.

**That interpretation is not consistent with the Catholic profession of “communion of Saints”. We can see in the catacombs, at the time of the death of the apostles that communion of saints clearly indicated something deeper than just the saints on earth. Asking the saints in heaven for their prayers. **

Here is an article I found on this, with references on an Orthodox site. Prayers to the Saints

Would you do me a favor and give me the exact quote of whatever verses you think were discarded but that show clearly and unambiguously that praying to deceased saints is proper or encouraged by God?

Sure This is also covered in the article, although there are many other sources for this also.

In Tobit, part of the OT in a Catholic Bible, it shows us the story of what an angel says to people. Of how the angel brought a reminder of their prayers to God. And this is what we are doing with the “prayers to the saints”. We are asking them to present again, our prayers to God.

Also, in 2 Maccabbees 15:12, there is recorded a story of the departed Onius praying for the Jews.

So we can see that the saints in heaven are praying for us. We know that we should “pray without ceasing” in this life. We know we should ask other saints for prayers. We know that the catacombs show the early saints doing so. We know that the Jewish mindset could completely accept this.

So the question should not be where is it in the bible, but where is it not? Until the reformation, all Christians asked the saints in heaven and on earth for prayers for we are all one. Until men came along and broke us apart.

 

[MariaG]

**Phil 4 does not mention “through the prayers of the Saints” so why throw it in there? I think you have a preconceived idea and you want to see it where it does not really exist. **

I brought it up because, we bring attention to GOD through Prayer, to God.

The intent here is not to show that this supports directly or indirectly prayers of the saints in heaven but to try to show you that your preconcieved ideas of what “praying to saints” is in error.

You bolded “by prayer” and “to God” “ask the Father” and “have confidence in God”. The point is, we do that. Asking others to pray for you never takes away our confidence in God, it is just doing what scripture tells us to, asking other saints to pray for us.

The only difference is the understanding of which saints we beleive we can ask to pray for us. You believe that once we die in Christ, we are separated from the rest of the body of Christ. We believe we are still one body through Christ. Nothing can separate us, even death, for we are alive in and through Christ.

That was the point of bringin up Phil 4.

As I said before, it’s not a matter of “dividing” the Body. It is simply a matter of recognizing that what the Holy Spirit inspired the various writers to say is for the benefit of those in the Body who are still here looking through a glass darkly and functioning here on earth using their various gifts and callings as the Spirit intended them to be used, to edify or build up each member still running the race and still dealing with the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Yes, it was written for our benefit, for those of us here. And what was written, as well as was told, supports the communion of Saints as practiced by the Catholic Church.

Also, I truly wonder whether ALL glory and honor goes to God alone when a prayer to a deceased saint gets answered, at least for some Catholics. In Latin America I read where when they did not get their prayer to a particular saint answered, they would put the saint’s image in a shoe box, as a sort of punishment. So, I can imagine how they acted when a prayer was answered, exalting the saint, not glorifying God. You must admit that is a possible danger when instead of praying to God, someone prays to a saint. If you ONLY pray to God, there is no danger of anyone else getting any glory.

**

** So because some do not do what they are supposed to do, who fall into superstitious practices while asking saints to pray for them, the practice of asking saints to pray for us is wrong? Is this what you are saying?

**

Peace

**

And God Bless,
Maria

 

[guanophore]

** Didn’t what you call “the Sacred Tradition of the Church” consist of oral apostolic teachings? If so, was that ever reduced to writing, and if so, do we have it to read now? If not, how can you know what it consisted of? How can you know if it contained any particular teaching, such as praying to deceased saints?**

This is a very good question that is off topic in this thread. It has been addressed well many times, and if you are really interested, you can search “sacred tradition” or “apostolic teaching” and find out. We know that it included praying to the saints because this is a custom handed down to us from Apostolic times.

** Yes, of course I believe in God’s omnipotence, although I think it might be His omniscience that you’re referring to.

But perhaps you’re missing the point. For example, are we supposed to pray to angels?**

Why not? We are taught in scripture that they are ministering flames sent to guard us.

What if I prayed to an angel and, for example, asked Gabriel to give God a message from me. I could argue, Gabriel brought a message to Mary, so why can’t I give Gabriel a message to give to God? God would still know and hear the request from me first, because of His omniscience. Does that mean it’s right to pray to an angel, just because God knows and hears it from me first? My point is, could it not be that God wants Himself to be the first to hear it, not second hand. And if He is a loving, heavenly Father Who delights in hearing the prayers of His children, why not go directly to Him and present your petitions to HIM?

If you don’t want to ask for the intercession of angels and saints, then I recommend that you refrain.

**
The other thing is that, many of the prayers to saints do not stop at, pray for me. They end up asking the saint for things that only God should be asked for, whether it’s strength to endure or healing a sickness or whatever. **

You have a very narrow view of what it means to be a partaker in the grace of Christ. Jesus has given gifts to His people, to heal, to strengthen, to guide, all sorts. Scripture tells us that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. That means, they dont’ just “go away” when the saint passes beyond the veil of the flesh.

** Sure, you might ask a saint to ask God to heal you, but is it right to ask the saint** to heal you, or strengthen you or come to your aid or whatever? Should we ask St. Christopher to protect us on the highway, or God to do that? Is the prayer to St. Christopher, “Pray to God for my safety on the highway,” or is it, “Protect me, St. Christopher, on the highway”? Do you see the difference?

I understand what you are saying, it is just that we make no distinction between what God wants for us, and those praying for us within that perfect will of God. It is not “either/or” for Catholics, it is both/and.

Protestants don’t seem to mind when Paul writes that he is all things to all people, but if we say this about Mary or some other saint, they get offended!

1 Cor 9:22-23
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

We don’t think that Paul himself is saving them, even though he says "that I might save some’. He means, of course, that Christ will save them through his ministry.

When Simon wants to buy the power of God’s gifts, Peter pronounces judgement upon him, telling him to pray to God. What does Simon do? He says “YOU pray FOR me”.

Acts 8:20-24
20 But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” 24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

 

[MariaG]

While I am no friend of Catholic theology your argument is flawed.

I believe the OT records the eating of shellfish as being an abomination. Obviously, that is no longer the case.

Again, that is because the rule was changed because of a vision given to Peter, as per the authority given to him by Christ. No rule has been changed about talking to the dead.

 

[mikeledes]

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone, so you have to pray to dead humans to help you get the message to God, or to add weight to you requests? OK, if it works for you who am I to disagree? .

I guess you never ask anyone to pray for you, which is a clearly biblical practice.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[MariaG]

Didn’t what you call “the Sacred Tradition of the Church” consist of oral apostolic teachings? If so, was that ever reduced to writing, and if so, do we have it to read now? If not, how can you know what it consisted of? How can you know if it contained any particular teaching, such as praying to deceased saints?

What can we tell from scritpure?

2Tim 2:2 - what you heard from me entrust to faithful teachers

2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter

What do we also know?

Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels

And we also know what else scripture says about the Church

1Tim 3:15 - Church called “pillar and foundation of truth”

I hate to “cherry pick” verses, but further discussion of these issues would have to be on a different thread. But I just posted these to give smattering of why I believe we can trust the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The point is, communication with the dead was forbidden. Period. You do not find other passages where Moses instructed the Israelites to communicate with the dead, such as Samuel, in a proper manner, i.e., not using a medium. God had left Saul because of Saul’s disobedience and after seeking God in the proper way and getting nowhere, Saul sought the deceased Samuel, through the medium. Do you think it would have been proper for Saul to simply pray to Samuel and ask Samuel to pray to God for Saul? Would Samuel have heard that prayer? Samuel was righteous, so would he have prayed an effectual, fervent prayer for Saul? Would God have heard Samuel’s prayer?

Agreed. Talking with the dead is forbidden.

But, again, the saints in heaven are not dead, as scripture says so. Why can’t you trust the plain words of scripture? Why do you insist on continuing compare talking to the dead with asking those who are alive in heaven to pray for us?

 

[MariaG]

Milliardo:
Nor do we find any that expressly forbid it. Come, can you honestly show here if Catholics use magic or any other devises to call on the dead? You seem to also have not been able to say of any value why Jesus talked to dead people–Moses and Elijah, yet He is Lord Himself and should be the paramount one to obey His own words, would He not now? You keep coming back to the medium, but could not defend why Christ Himself talked to Moses and Elijah, when they aren’t alive anymore, or are you going to just remain silent on that one?

Respectfully, I know we are trying to help someone understand, but, they are not dead. There is a difference between the dead and those who are NOT dead but alive in Christ.

Mark 12:26] And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living;

 

[kedera]

As a Protestant, Southern Baptist variety non the less, I have had to do some praying myself on this totally-foreign-to-me matter of intercessory prayer. Now…it is my understanding that in praying to the saint, you are asking for prayer. Right, no, yeah, maybe? Saints in heaven are lacking in physical life, but are fully alive and with Christ. I would ask someone that was physically living, to pray for me, so why not ask Saints? They are more alive than any of us! I have always heard that praying to the “dead” was of no use as either they couldn’t recieve your prayer, but I’ve never been offered anything that shows me, as a Baptist that it is unscriptural. I have not prayed to any saints, as I am still in a process of understanding more about the Catholic faith. I figure that if I agree on as many points of Catholicism as I do, I should investigate the rest of it, and just pray that God will allow me to have an opened heart to whatever it is the truth may be.