The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[guanophore]

** God had left Saul because of Saul’s disobedience and after seeking God in the proper way and getting nowhere, Saul sought the deceased Samuel, through the medium. Do you think it would have been proper for Saul to simply pray to Samuel and ask Samuel to pray to God for Saul? Would Samuel have heard that prayer? Samuel was righteous, so would he have prayed an effectual, fervent prayer for Saul? Would God have heard Samuel’s prayer?**

Who knows? We know that sin does hinder prayers being heard, and Saul had been disobedient. But, in any case, asking for Samuel’s help could not hurt!

** You do not find other passages where Moses instructed the Israelites to communicate with the dead, such as Samuel, in a proper manner, i.e., not using a medium. **

I don’ t think that there was a clear understanding of life after death until Jesus explained it, and I don’t think the Israelites understood the communion of saints the way we do.

If you deny the resurrection of the body, and the communion of saints, then your arguement is not with Roman Catholics, but with the Council of Nicea.

Scripture clearly tells us to hold fast to oral tradition that was handed down to the Christians. You certainly would not be familiar with the traditions of the church, whether they would be present or not.

Intercessary prayers were clearly reflected in early Christian worship, noted in the liturgies, and passed down to us from the apostles themselves.

Although absent from the church’s teachigs is the abject need to pray to the saints for anything, those of us, in keeping with the traditions, have been witness to the workings of the holy spirit through our saints.

Perhaps incorruptible corpses, countless miracles and, mind boggling events of the Holy Saints is not enough for you. Clearly this is a case where one is blaspheming the Holy Spirit by denying he wonderous miracles of the Saints who worked their powers through God, for us.

The bottom line is that the same people who decided what books are the scriptures, are the same folk who continued to carry the tradition that is scripture. This includes prayers to the St.'s.

I was hoping to hear from an Orthodox on this topic! You are absolutely right. He should start with a study of the lives of the saints.

 

[MariaG]

Having read through this entire thread I have a
few things I’d like to articulate…

We can argue back and forth about the matter of
going to the saints in the church triumphant for
intercessory prayer.

Or… we can simply stay with the ONE thing on
which we ALL AGREE.

I believe we ALL AGREE that praying to the Father,
in the Name of Jesus, IS completely scriptural and
is is not, in any way, outside of the apostolic
teaching.

Since I have no assurance that my prayers to
anyone other than the Father, through Jesus, have
any effect I will go in the pattern of Jesus and
the apostles.

If this divides me from some believers, so be it.

The strange thing with this whole discussion is that
my Catholic brethren are in TOTAL agreement
with me that it is right and effectual to go in prayer
to the Father. But as soon as I say that I will not
attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the
blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to
suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic…

Not I

You’ll get a problem from me only if you say that I am a heretic for asking the saints in heaven to pray for me.

I am sorry you were subjected to ridicule for not choosing to ask the saints in heaven to join you in prayer.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I don’t see pray “through” when I read Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James. There is only one mediator. But we must pray for one another on earth while we live, of course.

But when we are more alive in Christ, we no longer pray for others???

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone, so you have to pray to dead humans to help you get the message to God, or to add weight to you requests? OK, if it works for you who am I to disagree? .

:bible1: Mark 12:26] And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Maybe when you die you are going to be dead, but for me and mine, we will be alive in Christ.

 

[MariaG]

As a Protestant, Southern Baptist variety non the less, I have had to do some praying myself on this totally-foreign-to-me matter of intercessory prayer. Now…it is my understanding that in praying to the saint, you are asking for prayer. Right, no, yeah, maybe? Saints in heaven are lacking in physical life, but are fully alive and with Christ. I would ask someone that was physically living, to pray for me, so why not ask Saints? They are more alive than any of us! I have always heard that praying to the “dead” was of no use as either they couldn’t recieve your prayer, but I’ve never been offered anything that shows me, as a Baptist that it is unscriptural. I have not prayed to any saints, as I am still in a process of understanding more about the Catholic faith. I figure that if I agree on as many points of Catholicism as I do, I should investigate the rest of it, and just pray that God will allow me to have an opened heart to whatever it is the truth may be.

Hi,
Welcome to the forums.

You understand it exactly right . We are asking those who are alive in Christ, to pray for us. The saints in heaven as well as those on earth. We are united through Christ our Lord.

I too asked God to lead me to all truth, no matter where that truth would lead me. And I ended up in the Catholic Church

May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you. May your heart be open to the fullness of truth of Christ. May your joy be overflowing in your discoveries. I ask this through Christ our Lord

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[guanophore]

But as soon as I say that I will not attempt to pray to this or that saint, or to Mary, the blessed mother of Jesus, I am subjected to

suspicion, ridicule and sometimes I am accused
of being a heretic.
So my question at this point is…

Is it herectical to pray only to the Father, in heaven?

I am sorry that you have been given this treatment. Of course it is not heretical to pray to the Father. What might be concerning about heresy is the denial of the contents of the Nicene Creed, especially about the resurrection of the body, and the communion of saints. These are the two that relate to the Assumption and Interecession of the Saints.

 

[christcnection1]

As a Protestant, Southern Baptist variety non the less, I have had to do some praying myself on this totally-foreign-to-me matter of intercessory prayer. Now…it is my understanding that in praying to the saint, you are asking for prayer. Right, no, yeah, maybe? Saints in heaven are lacking in physical life, but are fully alive and with Christ. I would ask someone that was physically living, to pray for me, so why not ask Saints? They are more alive than any of us! I have always heard that praying to the “dead” was of no use as either they couldn’t recieve your prayer, but I’ve never been offered anything that shows me, as a Baptist that it is unscriptural. I have not prayed to any saints, as I am still in a process of understanding more about the Catholic faith. I figure that if I agree on as many points of Catholicism as I do, I should investigate the rest of it, and just pray that God will allow me to have an opened heart to whatever it is the truth may be.

We appreciate your honesty Kedera. There is certainly a lot of information out there, and most of the converts to the Catholic faith (the ones that have ‘Tiber Swim team’ at the bottom of their post) studied the faith a long time before making that major decision. I would like to share a few more things (not much) through a private message if you are okay with that. Please send me a message if you’re interested. God bless you in your journey.

 

[guanophore]

I Timothy 2:5 says “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…”

Yes, we are “surrounded by” a great cloud of witnesses. But that does not mean we are supposed to pray to them. We pray to God through Jesus and we talk with one another through the mediation of Jesus, also, since truth ought always to be spoken in love.

No one is disputing that. We are just aware the Jesus shares His priestly ministry with the saints. He has made them partakers of His grace, and allowed them to become co-mediators with HIm. This is His intention for all of us.

 

[guanophore]

What does “revelation” got to do with “intersession”? You are confusing the meaning of the words.
If what you say is correct, just because by the time those poor souls were being persecuted a belief existed in praying to (or is it ‘for’?) the dead (not necessarily a saint or even a christian) does that put a divine seal of approval on the practice? I think not.
As to Polycarp’s bones … Now, here was a true saint, fire could not kill him so he had to be stabbed first and then burnt. A fabulous story that was believed by many. No wonder they held his remains in such high esteem.

No, you are confusing the meaning of the post. He is saying that John writes about the heavenly realm in the BOOK of Revelation. There we see the Saints in heaven, actively praying, and actively presenting our petitions before the throne of grace. This is the ministry of intercession.

 

[guanophore]

You say you can’t find all the help you need in praying to God alone, so you have to pray to dead humans to help you get the message to God, or to add weight to you requests? OK, if it works for you who am I to disagree? .

No, we say that Jesus came to establish His Body on earth, and that He intended for us to journey the straight and narrow road TOGETHER. “God alone” is just as erroneous as 'faith alone" and “scripture alone”.

We do not pray to “dead humans” but we ask intercession from those who have gone beyond the veil of flesh, and whose lives are hidden with Christ in God, and alive forevermore. If you disagree, then you are denying that the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous person avails much.

 

[guanophore]

As a Protestant, Southern Baptist variety non the less, I have had to do some praying myself on this totally-foreign-to-me matter of intercessory prayer. Now…it is my understanding that in praying to the saint, you are asking for prayer. Right, no, yeah, maybe? Saints in heaven are lacking in physical life, but are fully alive and with Christ. I would ask someone that was physically living, to pray for me, so why not ask Saints? They are more alive than any of us! I have always heard that praying to the “dead” was of no use as either they couldn’t recieve your prayer, but I’ve never been offered anything that shows me, as a Baptist that it is unscriptural. I have not prayed to any saints, as I am still in a process of understanding more about the Catholic faith. I figure that if I agree on as many points of Catholicism as I do, I should investigate the rest of it, and just pray that God will allow me to have an opened heart to whatever it is the truth may be.

Good for you! And welcome to the forum. Be sure to visit the library.

 

[avflf]

Did Jesus say to pray alone?

(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

(Mat 6:6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

(Mat 6:7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

(Mat 6:8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

 

[avflf]

Are Saints dead humans? If so, please say when they die. Do they remain dead?

(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[avflf]

James 5:16

16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Philemon 22

**22 But, meanwhile, also prepare a guest room for me, for I trust that through your prayers **I shall be granted to you.

Hebrews 13:18-19

18 Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. 19 But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Philippians 1:19

**19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer **and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Revelation 5:8

**8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders **fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

No intermediary agents other than Jesus? Sure don’t sound like it to me. I guess you never ask anyone to pray for you.

God Bless,
Michael

Well now! You just brought up an interesting point. What can I say? Paul, after telling Timothy that there was only one mediator between God and man, now asks a number of people to intercede for him in prayer. He must’ve forgotten. And the other writers followed suit. Oh well, errare humanum est I suppose.

 

[water]

Well now! You just brought up an interesting point. What can I say? Paul, after telling Timothy that there was only one mediator between God and man, now asks a number of people to intercede for him in prayer. He must’ve forgotten. And the other writers followed suit. Oh well, errare humanum est I suppose.

who is the Meditor then?
and does the Bible say how many mediators between Jesus, the Son, and men?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The Mediator Jesus lets us share in the redemption of others and lets us interced for others with prayer.

He’s a big enough God to do that and is Glorified by letting us participate in the redemption of others.

It really must be a bitter thing to believe in a small God that won’t allow that?

If it weren’t a bitter thing the non prayers to the saints would be gushing with love and joy about how great it is to not be able to prayu for one another.

You never hear that from them!

Didn’t Jesus say that you will know a tree by its fruits?

Who is happier–the Protestant who decries praying at these forums to the saints–or the Catholics who pray for one another–pray for the people who have died just like the Real scriptures tell them to–and draw comfort in the communion of saints?

Which fruit is sweet and which fruit is bitter?

 

[avflf]

who is the Meditor then?
and does the Bible say how many mediators between Jesus, the Son, and men?

The mediator is the man Christ Jesus, according to Paul; and no, the Bible is silent on mediators between man and Christ but as Jesus is God the same would apply, don’t you think?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Paul said he made up for what was lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the church.

What part of that do the sole mediator being Jesus believers do not understand.

Paul being able to do that does not take away from Jesus being the one mediator exactly like praying to or for anyone does not take away from Jesus being the one mediator.

Is that concept too large for the bitterly small mind?

 

[christcnection1]

The Mediator Jesus lets us share in the redemption of others and lets us interced for others with prayer.

He’s a big enough God to do that and is Glorified by letting us participate in the redemption of others.

It really must be a bitter thing to believe in a small God that won’t allow that?

If it weren’t a bitter thing the non prayers to the saints would be gushing with love and joy about how great it is to not be able to prayu for one another.

You never hear that from them!

Didn’t Jesus say that you will know a tree by its fruits?

Who is happier–the Protestant who decries praying at these forums to the saints–or the Catholics who pray for one another–pray for the people who have died just like the Real scriptures tell them to–and draw comfort in the communion of saints?

Which fruit is sweet and which fruit is bitter?

Amen brother…

Are not angels mediators of God? They certainly are; however, they share in His mediatorship, while taking nothing away from Him.

Likewise, our brothers and sisters in heaven share in His mediatorship, but everything is through Him, with Him, and in Him. Ultimately, this is all for the glory of God. (We know from scripture that they are like angels in heaven.)

To believe this subtracts from God is to have a small-minded view of His majesty, and a limited understanding of His plan.

 

[water]

The mediator is the man Christ Jesus, according to Paul; and no, the Bible is silent on mediators between man and Christ but as Jesus is God the same would apply, don’t you think?

Ah, so the Bible doesn’t say it.
so, what happens to the original post question

Re: The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

The Bible is also silent on this part

 

[guanophore]

Paul said he made up for what was lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the church.

What part of that do the sole mediator being Jesus believers do not understand.

Paul being able to do that does not take away from Jesus being the one mediator exactly like praying to or for anyone does not take away from Jesus being the one mediator.

Is that concept too large for the bitterly small mind?

Yes. It is purely a reflection of of the small notion of God, and a lack of understanding of His plan for mankind. Corinthians says “do you know know that you are to judge angels?”, yet we are not supposed to interact with them!