The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[water]

The mediator is the man Christ Jesus, according to Paul; and no, the Bible is silent on mediators between man and Christ but as Jesus is God the same would apply, don’t you think?

Ah, so the Bible doesn’t say it.
so, what happens to the original post question

Re: The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

The Bible seems to be silent on this part to you perhaps!

 

[christcnection1]

Yes. It is purely a reflection of of the small notion of God, and a lack of understanding of His plan for mankind. Corinthians says “do you know know that you are to judge angels?”, yet we are not supposed to interact with them!

Haha…

That’s a good one. I never heard it put that way.

 

[avflf]

Ah, so the Bible doesn’t say it.
so, what happens to the original post question
**The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!**The Bible seems to be silent on this part to you perhaps!

Nothing happens. The Scriptures DO NOT tell you to pray to the departed spirits.

 

[water]

Nothing happens. The Scriptures DO NOT tell you to pray to the departed spirits.

I let you run around in the circle. Where does it say say?

 

[avflf]

I let you run around in the circle. Where does it say say?

It doesn’t. But you can point it out to me where it says that one SHOULD pray to departed spirits, I’m sure. So let’s have Chapter and Verse.

 

[water]

It doesn’t. But you can point it out to me where it says that one SHOULD pray to departed spirits, I’m sure. So let’s have Chapter and Verse.

Ah, so it doens’t! Doesn’t this defeat Sola Scriptura!
Why would you believe in Trinity if the word Trinity is not in the Bible?

Also, about mediator - does God prevent you from asking your family to pray for you?

here is a good article on Intercession of Saints:
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp

there are verses there for you to read.

 

[skelly123]

Hi, sorry, I mean you no harm but just thought I’d let you know that we Christians do not recognize any “Catholic teachings” whatsoever. Christ and the Apostles are the FINAL AUTHORITY and all of us must submit to their teachings. Case in poiint …

Concerning Prayers for the dead and Purgatory:

Our prayers cannot “help” the dead. Jesus said in Luke 16 that once we die, we will NEVER be able to get out of where we are sent, and there is no purgatory in between. Take a look…

Luke 16:25-26: But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this…those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.

Further, prayer TO dead people, as though they are gods, is called Idolatry. No dead person has ever earned the right to hear prayer or answer prayer. Christ alone earned this right on the Cross.

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.

Notice that Jesus said ask in HIS name, not Miriam’s.

So what do you mean Jesus “refers to” the Maccabees?

Then, you said … “Did the Bible provide its own canonical authority?”

Actually, yes it did. Take a look …

Galatians 1:5-6: " … but there are some who pervert the gospel of Christ. Even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we preached to you, let him be accursed, and again, let him be accursed."

So it’s a dangerous thing to make up stuff as we go along. False doctrines such as Purgatory / indulgences / praying to dead statues / Limbus Infantium / Flaggelation … are found nowhere in the instructions of Christ and the Apostles.

Then you said … "A problem for protestants theologians admitted by Karl Barth! Protestants [is that] the Canon of Scripture itself is not established beyond doubt.

Excuse me? If Karl Barth did not recognize Christ and the Apostles as the final authority, then it probably did not go well with him at his death because Jesus said … “Every knee will bow and confess I am Lord”. He also said …“If you confess Me before men, I will also confess you before My Father.”

I welcome your reply and please have a good day. sk.

 

[christcnection1]

First of all, we agree with every single Bible verse you used. We just don’t necessarily agree with your interpretation of it.

Hi, sorry, I mean you no harm but just thought I’d let you know that we Christians do not recognize any “Catholic teachings” whatsoever. Christ and the Apostles are the FINAL AUTHORITY and all of us must submit to their teachings. Case in poiint …

Concerning Prayers for the dead and Purgatory:

Our prayers cannot “help” the dead. Jesus said in Luke 16 that once we die, we will NEVER be able to get out of where we are sent, and there is no purgatory in between.

Purgatory is not a place in between, in terms of it being a final holding place. All those who die in Christ, but are not yet perfected, go to purgatory. All those who go to purgatory go to heaven.

For a scriptural understanding of purgatory…
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Even some famous Protestants believe in some kind of purgatory.
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

Further, prayer TO dead people, as though they are gods, is called Idolatry. No dead person has ever earned the right to hear prayer or answer prayer. Christ alone earned this right on the Cross.

If you’ve been told that Catholics believe our brother and sisters in heaven are gods, you’ve been either lied to or told a falsehood. I’m glad you now know.

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

We agree
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005fea1.asp

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.
We agree However, do you have a problem with asking one of your friends for prayer? We do not. This is our view with our siblings in heaven.

Notice that Jesus said ask in HIS name, not Miriam’s.

So what do you mean Jesus “refers to” the Maccabees?

Then, you said … “Did the Bible provide its own canonical authority?”

Actually, yes it did. Take a look …

Galatians 1:5-6: " … but there are some who pervert the gospel of Christ. Even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we preached to you, let him be accursed, and again, let him be accursed."

Using this logic, then God chose “accursed” individuals, who preached a “false gospel” to confirm which books belonged in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea in 325AD. Is this how God operates?

So it’s a dangerous thing to make up stuff as we go along. False doctrines such as Purgatory / indulgences / praying to dead statues / Limbus Infantium / Flaggelation … are found nowhere in the instructions of Christ and the Apostles.

We will wrestle with this when I have more time.

Then you said … "A problem for protestants theologians admitted by Karl Barth! Protestants [is that] the Canon of Scripture itself is not established beyond doubt.

Excuse me? If Karl Barth did not recognize Christ and the Apostles as the final authority, then it probably did not go well with him at his death because Jesus said … “Every knee will bow and confess I am Lord”. He also said …“If you confess Me before men, I will also confess you before My Father.”

Hmm… we agree with these verses too. Perhaps we have more in common than I thought.

I welcome your reply and please have a good day. sk.

God bless,
JB

 

[skelly123]

Hi, how are you? I’m a Christian - not Catholic. Mind if I join in?

That’s right it doesn’t say Trinity, nor does it say Abortion or Cloning, but that doesn’t mean we can haul off and do these things, right? Agreed.

By the same token, just because it doesn’t say “do not pray to dead people” doesn’t mean we don’t have other criptures to tell us never to do this. Take a look …

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.

Notice, we are told to ask in HIS name and no other. Notice also that Christ is our ONLY ACCESS to God … not Miriam or any other dead person for that matter, (that’s her real name by the way.)

Further, the Apostle Paul said only Christ has EARNED the right to answer prayer because He was SINLESS. Take a look …

Hebrews 7:26: For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, SEPARATE FROM SINNER, and has become HIGHTER than the heavens.

Notice that Christ was never a sinner like the “dead saints”. Notice also that He is HIGHER than all things in Heaven and Earth … and sorry, but that includes Miriam.

Then you said … “Does God prevent you from asking your family to pray for you?”

Yes He does. Christ said very clearly in Luke 16:24-26 that once a person dies, they are sent to only 1 of 2 places … Heaven or hell. Take a look …

But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you CANNOT, nor can those from there pass to us.’

So our family can pray for us ALL THEY WANT, but it will make no difference … and I say this respectfully and without malice.

Regretfully, Christ said heaven and hell are FINAL meaning there is no Purgatory in between. And since Christ comes from Eternity, I choose to TRUST MY LIFE on His description of death and no other.

Respectfully,
Selma Kelly
Orange County, Cal.

 

[skelly123]

THen please be careful how you interpret, that’s all I’m saying.

Galatians 1:5-6 says that false doctrine brings a curse from God.

I wish you Proverbs 10:22 today.

First of all, we agree with every single Bible verse you used. We just don’t necessarily agree with your interpretation of it.

God bless,
JB

 

[water]

Hi, how are you? I’m a Christian - not Catholic. Mind if I join in?

That’s right it doesn’t say Trinity, nor does it say Abortion or Cloning, but that doesn’t mean we can haul off and do these things, right? Agreed.

By the same token, just because it doesn’t say “do not pray to dead people” doesn’t mean we don’t have other criptures to tell us never to do this. Take a look …

1 Tim 2:5: For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.

Notice, we are told to ask in HIS name and no other. Notice also that Christ is our ONLY ACCESS to God … not Miriam or any other dead person for that matter, (that’s her real name by the way.)

…

So our family can pray for us ALL THEY WANT, but it will make no difference … and I say this respectfully and without malice.

May I ask why you ask your family to pray for you? Why should they be “the mediators” between you and God.

It surely makes a different when you ask your family to pray for you…what is the point of asking if it makes no difference.

Why did St Paul care to pray for others if it doesn’t make any diffrence.
Ephesians 3:14-21

“For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.”

Does your family exclude any of your family members in Heaven?

The Mystical Body of Christ does not contain any “dead person”.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Listen to the church!

Don’t listen to mere christian communities!

 

[skelly123]

By the way, I like your little picture of the bearded monk. He looks very kind and peaceful. I also failed to mention that yes, we do have very much in common.

Sir, with all due respect … The Blood of Christ DOES PERFECT US. Take a look …

Hebrew 10:12-16:

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God…

And by one offering has PERFECTED forever those that are sanctified… ( that’s be us ! )

This is the covenant that I will make with them after (the Crucixion)

"THEIR SINS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE ! ! ! "

Then it says … “Now where there is remission of sins, there is no more OFFERING for sin”.

This means that once The Blood was spilled … none of us need to make any more payment for sins. It was PAID IN FULL.

Let’s pause momentarily to dance and sing.

 

[skelly123]

Wait a minute … I thought we were talking about DEAD PEOPLE … not the living ! Of course we should pray for the living.

But Jesus said very clearly in Luke 16 that people cannot “travel” from one heaven and hell, based on someone’s prayer. Heaven and hell are QUITE FINAL.

And what on earth is a “mystical body” of Christ?

Are you talking about the GLORIFIED BODY of Christ which, by the way, no longer hangs on the Cross for He is RISEN AND ALIVE ! ! !

Respectfully, sk.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

May I ask why you ask your family to pray for you? Why should they be “the mediators” between you and God.

Indeed why should they? I can’t help wondering if folks have read any of the prior explanations which demonstrate that Saints are not dead. Nor are they the One Mediator between God and man.

 

[water]

Wait a minute … I thought we were talking about DEAD PEOPLE … not the living ! Of course we should pray for the living.

We were talking about praying to, as in intercession, to the Saints.

But Jesus said very clearly in Luke 16 that people cannot “travel” from one heaven and hell, based on someone’s prayer. Heaven and hell are QUITE FINAL.

Who says they can? Are you off topic some how?

And what on earth is a “mystical body” of Christ?

That is a fancy term Catholics like to use to describe you, me, Saint in Heaven, Jesus and all

Are you talking about the GLORIFIED BODY of Christ which, by the way, no longer hangs on the Cross for He is RISEN AND ALIVE ! ! !

Do you know that some non-Catholics believe that Catholics still think Jesus still dead and got stuck on the Cross and therefore they still have Jesus on the Crucifix?

Here is the thing - we believe He is risen - exactly like non-Catholics do. The reason we like to look at Jesus on the Crucifix because it reminds us two important things:

1 - Our sins
2- His love for us.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Wait a minute … I thought we were talking about DEAD PEOPLE … not the living ! Of course we should pray for the living.

The Saints are alive.

 

[christcnection1]

By the way, I like your little picture of the bearded monk. He looks very kind and peaceful. I also failed to mention that yes, we do have very much in common.

Sir, with all due respect … The Blood of Christ DOES PERFECT US. Take a look …

Hebrew 10:12-16:

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God…

And by one offering has PERFECTED forever those that are sanctified… ( that’s be us ! )

This is the covenant that I will make with them after (the Crucixion)

"THEIR SINS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE ! ! ! "

Then it says … “Now where there is remission of sins, there is no more OFFERING for sin”.

This means that once The Blood was spilled … none of us need to make any more payment for sins. It was PAID IN FULL.

Let’s pause momentarily to dance and sing.

I suggest you learn how to quote individuals before making posts That will help make your point more clear, as well as eliminate any confusion. Once you learn how to do it, it’s a piece of pie.

Anyhow…

We believe there is only one sacrifice. We also believe that the blood of Jesus saves us. Our understanding of how this works is different.

I will use Martin Luther as an example. He saw having faith in Jesus as a pile of dung that was covered with snow. Because of our faith in Christ, we are declared righteous (imputed righteousness).

Catholics, on the other hand, believe in infused righteousness. The graces Christ alone merited on the cross are applied to us that we will be made perfect. We are saved through His death (his blood), in the sense that the pile of dung becomes gold (not just covered in snow). Through the grace He won on the cross, we made perfect. Therefore, we are perfected in Christ.

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).” catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

I do not want to go down this road because it’s off topic. I strongly suggest you start your own thread dealing specifically with these issues.

Check out the following…
scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
catholic.com/library/Mortal_Sin.asp
catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

The guy with the beard is a Capuchin Franciscan Friar named Padre Pio. He was a very holy man, a great miracle worker, and led countless individuals to Christ. I read his biography when I was an Evangelical and was very impressed by his life.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why even discuss the subject with people who don’t believe in the real scriptures?

Maccabees is the truth–if you disbelieve it get ready for the possibility of Hell.

Since we as Catholics don’t know the individual fate of each soul we will pray for you after you die.

If you truely don’t have enough love in your heart to pray for us after you die–then God will grant your wish and you’ll be able to continue not praying for us after death in Hell!

 

[skelly123]

If many Christians believe Christ never came down from the Cross, that’s their tough luck isn’t it? Should we follow them into that ignorance? How awful their darkness must. Further, many “christians” are in for a rude shock when Christ returns.

Now if I had to look at “my sins” on the cross all day long, it’d be like getting locked into a room for a month having to watch Texas Chainsaw Masacre.

Focusing on death and sins can quickly make me spiritually sick. Inoticed this when I watch too much world news. Not cut out of it. Thank God I haven’t been ASKED to do this:

Romans 6:3 … just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we also should walk in newness of life.