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MariaG
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Could you please define the word and the context of the word pray?
God Bless,
Maria
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God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
Good question. I will post a question on this and a link.Here
The Church wrote documents and defined things. This is where we get things like a formalized definition of Trinity and words on infant baptism.
God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
I know you may find this odd, but we can see that there were oral teachings that were not recorded in the gospels by looking at scritpure.
Paul talks of a teaching of Christ in Acts 20:35 that is not recorded in the gospels.
Acts 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"
And as you can see, it was not about asking saints in heaven to pray for us
God Bless,
Maria
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lsburk
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Trying to answer this thread is like a dog chasing its tale. It only goes in circles. All of the well meaning Catholics that have tried to answer this thread have bought into the notion of trying to disprove a negative.
MariaG: You have been patient and well meaning but I still stand by my original reply to this thread.
Justasking4: Show me where holy scripture says it is wrong to pray to saints and ask them for intercession.
MariaG: You have been patient and well meaning but I still stand by my original reply to this thread.
Justasking4: Show me where holy scripture says it is wrong to pray to saints and ask them for intercession.
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MariaG
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sonoflife1
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We must study history,documents, artifacts,there was
two peters in rome about the same time paul was.Simon magnus,
its the contention that some history buffs,try to arugue Simon magnus(a known sorcer,wizard worker of curses,magic)actually was the 1st pope and stole (the good peters)name reputation ect.
about 64 or 68 AD.You can also find how Peter and paul was killed,timothy,ect.King James well he wasnt much better than any other english king. whoremonger,drunk,murderer.the authorized version was the law because the king said so.300years
after king james ripped out several books of the Bible to claim his authorised version then people was led to believe Catholics added
books to the Bible??however Catholic version was the orginal to start with .How do we know this?1romans stole scribes from jews
they burned out gave them over to the latter catholic church.thats
history from all known writtings artifacts from various accounts
non christian,pagan,sunworshipers jews all people. not just a king in england.Most of the time people only use scripture,like when Jesus said to PETER BULID MY CHURCH ON A ROCK.or words to that effect.But theres so much proof in history its really overwheling.By the way Simmon magnus wasnt the 1st pope
again history did its job.Paul didnt mention Peter being in rome
because He stated he doesnt thread on anther saints area.well we
know paul wasnt talking about magnus,so that leaves Peter as 1st Pope.
GOD BLESS YOU
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sonoflife1
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RobHom
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All you have to do now is stop pecking at the keyboard and spend a few minutes reading the information at these links.
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
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RobHom
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Unfortunately, and thus it will probably be until the prophesies in the Book of Revelations are fulfilled. Then many will know the TRUTH as it really was and is, and forever shall be.
Myself…I choose to be a Catholic, because in my heart, and in my soul I know what is right.
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justasking4
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Since you are making the claim that scripture does say this, then where is it taught in scripture? Where did Jesus for example say to pray to believers who died and went to heaven?
Where do any of the NT teach such a thing?
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st_felicity
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The Transfiguration. Jesus chatted up Elijah and Moses.
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justasking4
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It looks like it was centuries…
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justasking4
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Jesus is not praying to Elijah and Moses here. This is not a prayer.The Transfiguration. Jesus chatted up Elijah and Moses.
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RNMom4Life
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Very simple…don’t we (including on this forum) ask others for their prayers…“pray to God” for His mercy etc etc. Why not pray to the souls of friends of God…those who gave their lives for Him…to intercede for us with Him…Also…in the Bible, we have Jesus performing His first miracle at Cana at the request of His Mother…Therefore, Mary is a powerful intercessor. If you want something done, go to the mother. Jesus never refuses her. Of course according to the will of the Father.
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LilyM
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He’s talking to them. Which actually is prayer as well
Prayer isn’t just asking for favours, remember. Don’t you ever just talk to God rather than asking Him for stuff? Is that not prayer too?Jesus hears and talks to them, they hear and talk to Him, they not being deaf and dumb statues merely by virtue of the fact that they’re no longer alive.
Now there are two major objections that are raised against prayer to the saints.
One is the idea that ‘they can’t hear us’ - which is rubbish. Revelation is full of heavenly beings who are aware of earthly events and vice versa (John himself sees what EVERYONE on heaven and earth and below are up to). This episode with Moses and Elijah is Christ’s own demonstration that they can indeed both hear and respond to us!
The second is that it’s somehow a) taking glory from God where it should be centred or b) akin to summoning up spirits. Note Christ is here conversing to Moses and Elijah, not direct with the Father as everyone supposedly should be at all times when they pray.
By your erroneous logic HE is taking away from the Father’s glory by so doing - himself committing a sin in the way that every person who prays to anyone but God allegedly does. Which is rubbish. Or else he is summoning up their spirits in some idolatrous fashion. Again rubbish.
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Joero
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There are scriptural passages that would logically tell us that the saints in heaven can help us through their prayers, because they are heard by God. Example of this is (Zechariah 3:7). This particular passage states about the vision of prophet Zechariah, during the reign of emperor Darius of Persia, about the high priest, Joshua - son of Jehozadak, who was the high priest during the reign of emperor Cyrus of Persia who conquered the Babylonian empire and ordered the Jews to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple (Ezra 3: 1-2).
Joshua, the high priest, must have died already when emperor Darius began his reign and this particular passage (Zech. 3:7) tells us that God hears the saint’s prayer as He hears the angel’s prayer. So, it is logical that we ask for the intercession of the saints through prayers.
In the new testament, St. Paul speaks of believing the spirits of good people made perfect by God (Heb.12: 23). In Rev.3: 21 Christ would allow the victorious to sit beside Him in heaven. In Rev. 3: 9 - it speaks of the people to be forced to come and bow down at the feet of the angel of the church of Philadelphia.( most theologians interpret the meaning of the angel here as the patron saint)
Joshua, the high priest, must have died already when emperor Darius began his reign and this particular passage (Zech. 3:7) tells us that God hears the saint’s prayer as He hears the angel’s prayer. So, it is logical that we ask for the intercession of the saints through prayers.
In the new testament, St. Paul speaks of believing the spirits of good people made perfect by God (Heb.12: 23). In Rev.3: 21 Christ would allow the victorious to sit beside Him in heaven. In Rev. 3: 9 - it speaks of the people to be forced to come and bow down at the feet of the angel of the church of Philadelphia.( most theologians interpret the meaning of the angel here as the patron saint)
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lsburk
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I am not making that claim at all. I have never claimed that the scriptures do instruct us to pray to saints. I do believe that it does not have to be in the scriptures to be valid doctrine. I CAN HOWEVER PROVE SCRIPTURALLY THAT THE CHURCH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TEACH BY BOTH ORAL TRADITION AND WRITTEN SCRIPTURE!
Seeing as praying to saints falls in the category of oral tradition, I don’t need scripture.
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Joero
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I am with you ! You are right !I am not making that claim at all. I have never claimed that the scriptures do instruct us to pray to saints. I do believe that it does not have to be in the scriptures to be valid doctrine. I CAN HOWEVER PROVE SCRIPTURALLY THAT THE CHURCH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TEACH BY BOTH ORAL TRADITION AND WRITTEN SCRIPTURE!
Seeing as praying to saints falls in the category of oral tradition, I don’t need scripture.
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guanophore
Guest
All are alive unto Him, and most especially those who are “in Christ”. They do not stop being “in Christ” because they shed the veil of their flesh. We are all one body. Jesus’ body does not have dead parts attached to it. Those who have passed are still connected to the Head.
A good reason that one should make sure they remain “alive in Christ”!
No, but there is no word Trinity there either, and you seem to believe in that just fine!
The same teaching authority that brought you the word Trinity is the one that brings the communion of saints. We can see this in the Apostles creed dating back at least to the 4th century. The basis for it is that Jesus has one body. All who are members of HIm are in that body. They do not stop being members of His body when they pass from this world. All who are in Christ are alive unto him, and have eternal life.
The communion of saints is described in Heb 12:1-2, which talks about how we are surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses, the souls of just men made perfect, and that being so surrounded, we should press on to join them!
Actually, I dont’ think anyone here made the “claim that scripture does say this”. Catholics claim this has been the practice since the beginning,and we find support for it in the scriptures where we are encouraged many times to pray for one another. Catholics, according the the teaching of the Apostles we have received, understand that those who are in Christ are alive, whether in this world, or the next. They have life eternal, and they never die.
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guanophore
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Actually, I dont’ think anyone here made the “claim that scripture does say this”. Catholics claim this has been the practice since the beginning,and we find support for it in the scriptures where we are encouraged many times to pray for one another. Catholics, according the the teaching of the Apostles we have received, understand that those who are in Christ are alive, whether in this world, or the next. They have life eternal, and they never die.
It sounds like a conversation, which is one style of prayer. When I ask a brother or sister still on this side of the veil to pray for me, I usually explain what I want intercession for in advance. Or at least, ask them to pray for me because I am having a hard time. Perhaps your limited by your understanding of the word “prayer”?
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