The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[justasking4]

guanophore;2692260]Actually, I dont’ think anyone here made the “claim that scripture does say this”. Catholics claim this has been the practice since the beginning,and we find support for it in the scriptures where we are encouraged many times to pray for one another. Catholics, according the the teaching of the Apostles we have received, understand that those who are in Christ are alive, whether in this world, or the next. They have life eternal, and they never die.

i agree that they have eternal life and never die. I also agree with you that we are to pray for each other. The difference that i see between catholics and protestants is that catholics believe that even though they are alive in heaven this means that they can hear your audio and thought prayers also that are “directed” to them. Its at this point where our disagreement comes in. I can’t think of any scripture that claims this. It does claim it though for Christ. See Ephesians 2:18 and Hebrews 4:15-16. In these passages it is clear that we do have access to the Father by and through Christ. Jesus is the only one Who can hear our prayers and thoughts.
I can’t think of any scripture that speaks of a person who has died is some kind of “high priest” for us here.

It sounds like a conversation, which is one style of prayer. When I ask a brother or sister still on this side of the veil to pray for me, I usually explain what I want intercession for in advance. Or at least, ask them to pray for me because I am having a hard time.

I agree that this is something we should do in this world. However prayer is not exactly like a conversation that we have with each other. In our conservations there is a continual listening and response while in prayer its usually not like this. Usually when we pray its a one-way consersation and the responses (at least in my life) are not audio and take time before i see if they are answered (usually through circumstances or something like that).

Perhaps your limited by your understanding of the word “prayer”?

Yes. I think prayer has some very specific characteristics. Some of those characteristics would be:

1. speaking either audio or by thought to someone unseen
2. usually not a “normal 2 way conversation”
3. to someone who is more powerful than i am
   These are just some of the characteristics of prayer. Thats why for example when Moses appeared to Jesus at the transfiguration is not in the context of prayer but an actual space-time event in which he really was present there with Christ.

 

[justasking4]

I am not making that claim at all. I have never claimed that the scriptures do instruct us to pray to saints. I do believe that it does not have to be in the scriptures to be valid doctrine. I CAN HOWEVER PROVE SCRIPTURALLY THAT THE CHURCH HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TEACH BY BOTH ORAL TRADITION AND WRITTEN SCRIPTURE!

Seeing as praying to saints falls in the category of oral tradition, I don’t need scripture.

When you something is in the “category of oral tradition” how do you know it even exists if there is no written record of it?
The second issue is how do you know that this “oral tradition” is the truth?
Just because someone says something is true doesn’t make it true. I can think of a number of protestant teachers that say all kinds of things they say are true but does not make it so. In some cases they are teaching falsehoods.

 

[guanophore]

There is no need for any saint to intercede for you here. Christ is more than sufficent for your needs. God has more than demonstrated His love for us by sending Christ into the world to die for our sins.

You are thinking in a vacuum, justasking. Of course Christ is more than sufficient, and of course he died for our sins. But He also taught us how to work and live together, to love one another, pray for one another, and minister to each other. He established a Church, and taught His Apostles how to operate it. He left a Body here on earth. Jesus set it up so that there would be saints, and that we could pray for each other. He made it so that we could partake of His heavenly ministry, and also be reconcilers to bring people to Christ. He calls us to bear one another’s burdens.

 

[justasking4]

You are thinking in a vacuum, justasking. Of course Christ is more than sufficient, and of course he died for our sins. But He also taught us how to work and live together, to love one another, pray for one another, and minister to each other. He established a Church, and taught His Apostles how to operate it. He left a Body here on earth. Jesus set it up so that there would be saints, and that we could pray for each other. He made it so that we could partake of His heavenly ministry, and also be reconcilers to bring people to Christ. He calls us to bear one another’s burdens.

I agree. However there is nothing in the scriptures that we are to implore the help of those who have died nor that those who are supposedly in heaven help us out here either. Our focus is to be on Christ alone and helping those in this world.

 

[guanophore]

This is true. However the context is always for those alive in this world. Those that are living here.

Why make a distinction? The early church did not…

Would you happen to have the verse for this? It’s certainly not Hebrews 12:1.

I am curious about how this verse does not convince you that there are saints alive in heaven?

This is true. However, it is you who is making this claim and you need to show this is actually the case.

You have it backwards, justasking4. You have limited yourself to only part of the Divine Revelation, and using this partial peice, you are railing against people for practices arising from the portion you have rejected. It is not that we are “making a claim”. We are practicing the faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles. On the contrary, it is you “making the claim” that this practice is not valid, because you are looking at only part of the revelation!

This is not a question of “How” but what do the scriptures teach about this? If you want to go beyond what is written in Scripture, then you are going to have to show how a person who makes such statements is telling you the truth or makiing it up.

There is a false premise here. Catholics, as recipients of the fullness of the Divine Revelation, are not limited to the contents of the scripture. For we know that those scriptures were produced out of the Sacred Tradition which also teaches us about the communion of saints. We also know hat it is not a “person who makes up statements” who is the source of this teaching, but that it comes to us from Sacred Tradition. We know this and can trust the Magesterium that it is not “made up”. Since you are lacking this Source of guidance, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

Most of them not ever knowing, or conveniently forgetting that those scriptures were produced from the Sacred Oral Traditions. In fact, there was no NT at all for at least 20 years, and all the early churches depended upon the Sacred Oral Tradition entirely until the “memoirs of the Apostles” began to be penned. Paul’s letters, some of the earliest NT writings, were made to reinforce the Sacred Oral Traditions he had spread all over the known world. If you choose to reject this Source, it is your perogative, but don’t be surprised if you cannot reconcile the fullness of our teachings with the partialness of your Sola Scriptura doctrine.

There are major problems when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach.

You mean, like acting as if the Bible were the be all and end all of everything, when it even says it is not?
justasking4;2515363:

For one, how do you know that the person who is telling you to pray to a saint knows that specific saint can hear you? This is impossible to know since there is no way to know with any certainty that so and so is in any position to hear and do something about your prayers. No one knows the the state of a dead person.

Jesus does! And when He sees fit, He reveals this to the Church, then we ALL know!

This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us.

I am curious why you think the scriptures tell us to pray for one another, if He alone can intercede for us? Why would God tell us to do something in His word that He did not want us to do??
justasking4;2515363:

Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.

Apparently you are rejecting the parts of scripture that talk about the different parts of the body needing one another. Paul is specific that we do need one another. Why would he say this, if Christ is all we need? No, Jesus set it up so that we could share in His ministry,a nd help one another meet our needs.

 

[guanophore]

Part 1
Where in any passage of scripture in context leads you to believe they are speaking of someone who has died and gone to heaven? Its the context of the verse-passge that determines this question.

The passage of the transfiguration has already been brought up. Perhaps you do not think MOses and Elijah are in heaven?

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.”

Here the scriptures speak of One who had died and gone to heaven. And He also says that He will bring His faithful to dwell with HIm there.

All this shows is a superstitous belief. Who exactly were the people who wrote these prayers? Do you what kind of knowledge they had of the after life?

This is kinda judgemental of you, is it not? Who are you do decide that their faith is superstitious belief? They are the ones hiding in the tombs, because they were being killed for their faith! When did you ever have to hide in a tomb because someone was trying to kill you for being a Christian. Honestly! The prayers were written by the early church, which used to meet there, since the Romans would not come down there. Their knowledge of the afterlife was the same as Jesus, and is consistent with the Jewish Sacred Oral Tradition of His time. This is the faith that is taught to us by the Apostles.

Does it say in the creed that these saints in heaven can hear your prayers?

Specifically, it says “I believe…In the communion of saints” which means that we believe we are all part of the mystical body of Christ, some on this earth, some already passed. That we believe we are all members of One Body, One Faith, and have One Head, Jesus Christ.
justasking4;2524751:

How do you know even if the person is in heaven to begin with?

I know this has been answered before, so I am not sure if you are being stubborn, or if you have a learning disability. I guess, in either case, I should consider it some kind of handicap and be patient. We do not claim to know who is in heaven. The persons we know are in heaven are the ones about whom God has revealed to the Church that they are in heaven. Those defined as “saints”,by definition, are in heaven.

Again, this is not prayers being said directly to some saint.

I think you have a very narrow definition of “prayer” that does not include conversation, or that you confuse all prayer as being worship.

Is this what Jesus was teaching here i.e. people who have died care about us or was it about judgement and rejection of Christ?

Both!

No doubt many believe such things. However that does not make it true.

No, and your refusal to accept the Apostolic Teaching does not make it false.

How does Cyprian know it is like this in heaven?

He received the Sacred Oral Tradition as it was handed down to him from the Apostles, just as we do today.

People can believe errors for a long time. So it is here.

Apparently you believe the practice of praying to the saints is an “error” that has been believed for a long time, for 2000 years, it seems. Therefore you are calling Jesus a liar, because He promised to lead his followers into all truth, and then failed. What a weakling He turned out to be!

Since Jesus never promised that His church could not teach error

He promised just that, and more. He told his Apostles that whatever they bound on earth would be bound in heaven. He promised to be with them until the end of the age, and that the gates of hell would not prevail. If the Church were to teach error, then the gates of hell would be prevailing. That is what you are saying has happened, that the church is teaching error in praying to the saints, which makes Jesus a liar.
justasking4;2524751:

or that they would be led astray by false teachers in their midest i’m not suprised there are false teachings in your church and others.

Read more carefully. It is said that false teachers would arise, and that individuals would be led astray. The Church of Christ is the embodiment of the Spirit of Christ, and cannot be led astray.

The problem with these “oral traditions” is that there is no evidence for what they were. Do you what any “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture?

Well, none that you will accept, apparently. Either that, or you are just uneducated about the evidence. The bulk of it youw will find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. All of the Apostolic teachings will be referenced in scripture, through some of them only in the form of tiniest seeds. We are telling you that praying to saints is one of those traditions, and you are telling us that you believe that is an error and a false teaching.

 

[guanophore]

I agree. However there is nothing in the scriptures that we are to implore the help of those who have died nor that those who are supposedly in heaven help us out here either. Our focus is to be on Christ alone and helping those in this world.

There you go adding that word “alone” again where it does not exist. Yes, our focus is on Christ, and being Christ to others. There is no where it says to stop being Christlike toward those who have passed on. Beloving to them only until they die, then you can speak ill of the dead if you want? It won’t matter, they can’t hear you!

Those who have died in Christ are alive with him evermore. They have died to sin, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God. They, united with Him, are all part of the great communion of saints of which we are a part.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

When you something is in the “category of oral tradition” how do you know it even exists if there is no written record of it?

The second issue is how do you know that this “oral tradition” is the truth?
Just because someone says something is true doesn’t make it true. I can think of a number of protestant teachers that say all kinds of things they say are true but does not make it so. In some cases they are teaching falsehoods.

justasking;

I’m new here so forgive me if someone else has already pointed this out to you.

1."how do you know if it even exists’? Similar to those other oral traditions in our history: no president served more than 2 terms because Washington served only two terms. When FDR broke that “oral tradition” the Republican Congress was moved enough to pass an amendment making that tradition mandatory.

Traditions exist in customs (two terms) and in rites (St Paul and other early writers discussing hymns and order of the Mass). They also exist because EVERYONE writes about it and practices it. Like the belief in the Trinity.

1. “how do you know this ‘oral tradition’ is the truth”? St Paul had no problem telling the early churches to “follow those traditions which you have been taught” (Corinthians? Romans?)
2. Your personal interpretation of scripture would certainly not pass muster under your own assertion that “[j]ust because someone says something is true doesn’t make it true.”

In fact, your unfounded (based on YOUR ‘tradition’) and misguided (without historical and consuetudinary proof) perception that the Bible is necessary to understand God and to attain Salvation and how to live the Christian life would also be your PERSONAL INTERPRETATION and without Scriptural and Tradition basis.

The Bible, dear heart, came AFTER the “oral traditions” a good 280+ years after Pentatcost and the teaching of the Apostles by CHRIST for 40 days AFTER His resurrection.

That’s Tradition.

Robert

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
When you something is in the “category of oral tradition” how do you know it even exists if there is no written record of it?
The second issue is how do you know that this “oral tradition” is the truth?
Just because someone says something is true doesn’t make it true. I can think of a number of protestant teachers that say all kinds of things they say are true but does not make it so. In some cases they are teaching falsehoods.

 

[justasking4]

There you go adding that word “alone” again where it does not exist. Yes, our focus is on Christ, and being Christ to others. There is no where it says to stop being Christlike toward those who have passed on. Beloving to them only until they die, then you can speak ill of the dead if you want? It won’t matter, they can’t hear you!

Those who have died in Christ are alive with him evermore. They have died to sin, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God. They, united with Him, are all part of the great communion of saints of which we are a part.

So you agree that:

1. the scriptures don’t teach it
2. you believe it becasue your church tells you so?

 

[Mannyfit75]

juskasking4,

Where in Scripture does it say we can’t?

 

[justasking4]

juskasking4,

Where in Scripture does it say we can’t?

There are many exhortations to pray directly to God and Christ. There are no such exhortations, teachings or examples of someone praying to a saint in heaven. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to show that such a thing is biblical.

Secondly, if we take your view (if i understand it correctly) that if scripture doesn’t say anything about something then that means its right, then this could be used to justify all kinds of things.

 

[Mannyfit75]

There are many exhortations to pray directly to God and Christ. There are no such exhortations, teachings or examples of someone praying to a saint in heaven. The burden of proof is on your shoulders to show that such a thing is biblical.

Secondly, if we take your view (if i understand it correctly) that if scripture doesn’t say anything about something then that means its right, then this could be used to justify all kinds of things.

Then I can justify that you cannot pray in my behalf. Since what I ask a saint to pray for me, I am asking the same question when I ask you to pray for me.

Praying to saints does not exclude God. It invites all Christians saints on earth and saints in heaven in the divine worship to One God.

Take God out of the equation, then you commit Idolatry. I am pretty certain other Catholics have said the similar remarks as I have.

However, I understand why you find this difficult to understand since you lack any correct form of Catholic teaching. You are viewing this through the eyes of a Protestant.

The Bible does mention that Christians ought to pray to one another, or intercede.

Biblical verses like 1 Tim 2:3, 1 Tim. 2:5, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, Matt. 5:44-45, Rev. 1:4, Rev. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11, and Rev. 8:3-4.

Saints in heaven are still a member of the Church. They can still love their love one on earth. They surely would not forget them. I hardly think they would think of their family as inferior because they are still here on earth. They can still help us by praying for us. They are up there with God face to face, or should I say in theological terms; they witness the beatific vision of God.

Tell me how often do you go to Church services and how many times have your fellow Christians ask prayer request? That is exactly what intercessionary prayer to saint is.

It brings the entire Family of God, the saints on earth us, and the saints on heaven to pray God.

 

[justasking4]

Then I can justify that you cannot pray in my behalf. Since what I ask a saint to pray for me, I am asking the same question when I ask you to pray for me.

Praying to saints does not exclude God. It invites all Christians saints on earth and saints in heaven in the divine worship to One God.

Take God out of the equation, then you commit Idolatry. I am pretty certain other Catholics have said the similar remarks as I have.

However, I understand why you find this difficult to understand since you lack any correct form of Catholic teaching. You are viewing this through the eyes of a Protestant.

The Bible does mention that Christians ought to pray to one another, or intercede.

Biblical verses like 1 Tim 2:3, 1 Tim. 2:5, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, Matt. 5:44-45, Rev. 1:4, Rev. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11, and Rev. 8:3-4.

Saints in heaven are still a member of the Church. They can still love their love one on earth. They surely would not forget them. I hardly think they would think of their family as inferior because they are still here on earth. They can still help us by praying for us. They are up there with God face to face, or should I say in theological terms; they witness the beatific vision of God.

Tell me how often do you go to Church services and how many times have your fellow Christians ask prayer request? That is exactly what intercessionary prayer to saint is.

It brings the entire Family of God, the saints on earth us, and the saints on heaven to pray God.

What you are assuming is that saints in heaven can hear not only you but countless others. They also have the ability to hear your “prayer thoughts” to. Its these assumptions that are not grounded since they are all based on speculations. They are speculations becasue there is no way to know they can hear and do something for you. We could also bring in purgatory and how that “state” impacts a saints you may be praying to.

 

[MariaG]

Protestants don’t depend on “Oral Traditions” but the Scriptures.

And because of this, you ignore what Scripture teaches.

Scripture plainly tells us to hold fast to Tradition whether by word or by letter.You say you do not depend on oral traditions, so where in scripture does it tell you that it has all been written down now, only follow the written?

You contradict the plain word of scripture by not following the Oral Traditions.

Scripture tells us that His word will never pass away. We are told to hold fast to Tradtion whether oral or by letter and yet you proudly claim that Protestants don’t hold to oral Traditions as if that is a good thing?

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t

 

[MariaG]

As for your question about purgatory, there really is no answer for that. Especially since the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place at all. But rather that we will be completely Holy and completely cleased by Christ’s blood. Whether this is instantaneous thing as some believe or whether it is an actual place where “time” is spent as others believe is simply speculation.

God Bless,
Maria

Exactly. This is speculation. This is what happens when a church goes beyond what the Scriptures teach. The Scriptures do give us the confidence that we can pray directly to Christ because He alone intercedes for us. Only He can hear our prayers and has the power and authority to answer them. With this great promise there is no need to pray to any saint, Mary or angel. Christ is all you need.
God Bless,
Maria

Exactly? I say that there is not an official teaching about “time” in purgatory and you say that is what happens when people go beyond what is written

We don’t have a time for purgatory because scriptures are unclear and there is no oral Tradition of this at all. So we do not, in fact, go beyond what is written.

As for purgatory itself, it is completely biblical and I can cite the scripture. Start a new thread.

We do not in fact have an official teaching on “time” in purgatory because we do not go beyond the traditions, oral or by letter.

 

[MariaG]

There is no need for any saint to intercede for you here. Christ is more than sufficent for your needs. God has more than demonstrated His love for us by sending Christ into the world to die for our sins.

Then there is no need to ask anyone to pray for you on earth because Christ is more than sufficient for your needs.

Clearly, since Scripture is filled with Paul asking for the prayers of his brethren, his understanding is different than yours of intercessory prayer.

 

[MariaG]

What you are assuming is that saints in heaven can hear not only you but countless others. They also have the ability to hear your “prayer thoughts” to. Its these assumptions that are not grounded since they are all based on speculations. They are speculations becasue there is no way to know they can hear and do something for you. We could also bring in purgatory and how that “state” impacts a saints you may be praying to.

Since scripture shows that those who are no longer on earth, are aware of what if going on, on earth, yes, we do assume so, because scripture leads us to that conclusion.

That along with the Oral Tradition that we have held fast to, tell us that the saints in heaven can hear us.

One Body. Alive in Christ. All glory and Honor to God.

 

[Joero]

What you are assuming is that saints in heaven can hear not only you but countless others. They also have the ability to hear your “prayer thoughts” to. Its these assumptions that are not grounded since they are all based on speculations.

I may agree with you, ja4, if Christ had not risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. The holy scriptures definitely say that when He went up to the very heights; He took many captives with Him; He gave gifts to people.(Ephesians 4:8) And there were already plenty of saints in heaven (Rev. 7: 9-10) (Rev. 19:1)
When Christ was still preaching here on earth He told us through the scripture that no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven (John 3:13) and we should believe this because Christ doesn’t lie (1 Peter 2: 22). But even so, the old testament passages can give us the logical impression that it would be necessary for us here on earth to ask for the intercession from the elects of God. Examples of these passages are ( Zechariah 3:7) & ( 2 Maccabees 15: 14-16).
In Zech. 3: 7 it speaks of the high priest, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, that the saint’s prayers will be heard by God as God hears the prayers of the angels. (This vision of Prophet Zechariah occurred during the reign of emperor Darius of Persia. The high priest, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, who was then serving his priestly office during the reign of emperor Cyrus of Persia in the return of the Jews from exile (Ezra 3: 1-2), may have died before the reign of emperor Darius. The almighty God was so pleased by this elect, Joshua, son of Jehozadak.)
In 2 Maccabees 15: 14 - 16 also speaks about Judas, the Maccabees, whose prayer was heard by God and was given the vision of the high priest Onias (who had long been dead) who was praying for the whole Jewish nation and the emergence of prophet Jeremiah ( who had long been dead also ) and gave Judas the gold sword to destroy their enemies.

In the new testament, St. Paul teaches us to make room for them in our hearts, for we are so dear to them whether in life or in death ( 2 Corinthians 7: 2-3). He even exhorts us to come to God and the spirits of good people made perfect by God ( Heb. 12: 23 ).
By these passages I presented to you, It is then logical to ask for the intercession of the saints in heaven through prayers who have been united with Christ, for these saints had given the same glory as Christ has received from the Father so that they may be one in Them.( John 17: 22-23 ).

 

[guanophore]

So the bottom line is that there is no real “oral tradition” that exist but rather is a term used to defend aspect of catholic doctrine. There is no substance to it. Is this correct?

That would not be correct, no. We find Sacred Tradition embedded in creeds, liturgy, prayers, the rites/rubrics, and the teaching of the Magesterium.

So you agree that:

1. the scriptures don’t teach it
2. you believe it becasue your church tells you so?

To be honest, I can’t agree on either of these points. I see that scripture tells us all over the place to pray for one another, and I believe scripture to teach that the members of His body that have passed are still alive.

Furthermore, although I was brought up Catholic, I never developed any habits of praying to the saints, or to Mary either. To my shame I must admit that, it has only been recently, when I have had personal experiences to reinforce my requrests for help and intercession/intervention, that I really developed a faith in this practice.