The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[Esdra]

And just WHY would you say that it includes all that later became (through the Catholic Church) the Bible.

I was talking about the “first Catholic church” -(or: the first Christians) which in my opinion has very little to do what we understand now as the Catholic Church…

And,
Why would you trust an organization (the Baptists) who then took that Bible put together by the Catholic Church and removed books from it.

First of all: The Baptists didn’t remove anything! The Deuterocanonical Books were removed by the reformators (in particular Luther).
By the way: I could also say: Why don’t you have ALL books of the Septuaginta in your (Catholic) OT like the Orthodox? What about 3 Maccabees, or 1 Esdras or 2 Esdras? (and all the others from the Septuagint not even the Orthodox did include!)

As to your quote from 2 Tim, every word of that quote is indeed true. Scripture is indeed useful but please note what the above quote does NOT say. It does not say that Scripture is either complete or that is is safe to use outside of the ekklesia.

So you would agree with the Mormons that the Canon is open? They do believe that…
What is the ecclesia? In the beginning, among the ancient Christians there was no ekklesia. All communities or Churches were seperate and also administered themselves.
You see, when I had started reading the Bible 8 years ago, I more and more realized that the CC as it is today, can’t be identical with the Ancient Christians. And I have been searching for quite a long time for “the Ancient Christians” and I think I found them among the Baptists. - The more I study the Holy Bible and hear sermons from our pastor or elder, the more sure I know that I am right were I am.

So let me ask you this.
What is the "piller and bulwark of Truth?
What has the Authority to Bind and Loose…Whatever?

Both times Christ. Christ is the head of the Church - nothing and nobody else.
Well, and as we are all priests, everybody has the authoritiy to bind and loose. - Everybody who truly is a disciple of Christ. This includes remission of sins, baptism, well nearly everything. - in Theory. In practice for such services people are voted in Church - for the position of the pastor or an elder for example.

I know that these things are not what you have asked for in your OP and it probably seems as though you are being ganged up on. It so, I apologize and if asked I will stop posting. But I went through this same thing and frankly it was the Bible that brought me home to the Catholic Church (as it has many many people)
So I want to be sure you are considering these questions.

No, no everything alright! I will tell you if I can’t respond to you anymore. You know, there is a certain point normally, I simply can’t go further. - I hope I have the chance to go to a bible School ones.

Peace
James

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hi

I didn’t reconcile with John 6:54-56.
It’s just what I have read so often here in CAF - because Eucharist vs. “Last Supper” (like the Evangelicals call it) has often been a topic here.

It’s just that I don’t believe in the transsubstituion. Jesus IS present “where two or three are gathered together in His name.” (Mt 18:20)

And this is what I believe.

Baptists don’t believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, but they see it as “feast in remembrance” (Lk 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24-25) of Him and what He did for us.

By the way: We normally read parts of 1 Cor 11 before the Holy Supper.

Esdra

I have to ask this since Jesus is God Is he not present even if no one is there? Or how about if I am alone, at those time is Jesus not with me? the use of Mt 18:20 as a refutal of Christ in the Eucharist is very poor. Also you can not eat his flesh and drink his blood as commanded for if you don’t you have no life if he is not actually in the Eucharist. It has always amazed me that protestants that claim the Bible is the only authority and that everything is exacly as stated in the Bible will find ways to pick and choose when that is. As in my other post the Bible says that the Chruch is the pillar of truth yet protestant say it is the Bible,

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Church gives equal weight to Tradition (the teaching of Christ as given directly to the Apostles), the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church to whom the teaching of Christ has been entrusted), and Scripture (the written word of God).
" …sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise command are so linked that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls. " [Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation ch. 6:10].

The Catholic Answer Bible lists the following passages for Baptism and Confirmation:
Baptism– Mt. 28:19 + Mk 16:16 + Jn 3:5 + Acts 2:38 ; 16:15, 33: 18:8; 22:16 + Rom 6:3-4 + 1 Cor 1:16 ; 6:11 + Col 2:11-13 + Titus 3:5 + 1 Pt 3:21.
Confirmation– Wis 9:17 + Acts 8:14-19; 13:3; 19:1-6 + 2 Cor 1:21-22 + Eph 1:13 + Heb 6:1-2

 

[Barbkw]

Information for you about Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of Jesus in the Early Church (150-155 A.D.)

Also, Catholics in the Early Church were accused of cannibalism by pagans.

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

St. Justin Martyr

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Apology_of_Justin_Martyr

Letter dated 150-155 A.D.

First Apology to the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss.

There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen.

This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

**For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. **

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.

Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost.

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.

For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration."

 

[Erich]

Yeah, but Paul writes in 2 Tim 3:16
“16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

And I would say with “all Scripture” he refers to what later (and I have to admit through the “original Catholic Church”) our Holy Bible.

in Christ,
Esdra

You skipped 2 Tim 3:14-15 (the two preceding verses)…

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now, which Holy Scriptures would Timothy have known from childhood? That’s right, the Hebrew scriptures (i.e. what Christians know today as the Old Testament). So, you must really be saying that only the Old Testament is inspired and profitable for doctrine (never mind that “profitable” does not mean “sufficient”).

 

[Erich]

…That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works…

And who is “the man of God”? (Hint: read By What Authority? in its entirety)

 

[Barbkw]

How do Baptists explain John 6?

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

**For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me**.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

**Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” **

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, **"Does this shock you? **

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve."

 

[FAB]

Hi

I didn’t reconcile with John 6:54-56.
It’s just what I have read so often here in CAF - because Eucharist vs. “Last Supper” (like the Evangelicals call it) has often been a topic here.

It’s just that I don’t believe in the transsubstituion. Jesus IS present “where two or three are gathered together in His name.” (Mt 18:20)

And this is what I believe.

Baptists don’t believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist, but they see it as “feast in remembrance” (Lk 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24-25) of Him and what He did for us.

By the way: We normally read parts of 1 Cor 11 before the Holy Supper.

Esdra

OK the one step further. Luke 22:19-22, Christ says the this is my body and my blood, this links back to John’s Gospel. Taking “do this in rememberance of me” to mean sharing bread and wine during prayer is a misinterpetation. From the very begining of the Church the Apostles and early Fathers understood transsubstituion.

1 Cor 11:27-29 he is teaching that one must be worthy to consume the bread and wine. If it we only bread and wine and this was a “feast of rememberance” why the warning?

Since you are/were Catholic, at what point did you stop believing that the bread and wine is the true body and blood of Christ?

 

[JRKH]

Hi

thanks. Yes, this is about reconciliation and marriage (binding).

But, to be honest, I think this is rather little evidence form the Holy Scriptures to give the 7 sacraments such a heavy weight in the CC…

Especially concerning Reconciliation (and marriage as well if there are not more verses) and anointing the sick.

Esdra

I find this to be a rather interesting postion considering that you have only one verse (and not explicit at that) that you rely on for Sola Scriptura.
You want more evidence for the Church’s teachings on sacraments but you are willing to accept one verse as sufficient to accept SS??
Interesting.

Peace
James

 

[Barbkw]

In order to have a full understanding of each Sacrament, please check for how each Sacrament was prefigured in the Old Testament.

For instance, as Jesus taught, God the Father fed the Israelites manna in the desert (a prefigurement of Jesus in the Eucharist).

In the desert, God the Father required that skewbread or showbread be constantly in the presence of God - bread of the Presence - for display in the inner Temple (a prefigurement of Jesus in the Eucharist). (Exodus 25:30).

Malchizedek, the King and Priest of Salem (Jerusalem) blessed Abram and provided wine and unleaven bread to him. Abram gave Malchizedek tithes.

Jesus is born in Bayit Lehem (Bethlehem) in Hebrew it means “House of Bread”. After His birth, He is placed in a feeding manger.

As mentioned above, Jesus calls Himself the Bread of Life, and He tells his disciples and the Apostles that they must “eat His flesh.” In Hebrew, He used words that meant chewing on His flesh (which grossed out the crowd and many disciples stopped listening to Him.)

 

[Barbkw]

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is prefigured in the Old Testament - Yom Kippur - the Day of Atonement (At one ment with God). God the Father instituted this one day of the year when the High Priest would renew the covenant that God had with His people Israel.

Jesus transferred this “power to forgive sins” to His High Priests.

An excellent article on all the Scriptural citations for Baptism and Reconciliation is here:

catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

 

[DebChris]

Continuing with the list of scripture passages related to the 7 Sacraments.

Eucharist–Mt. 26:26-28 + Mk 14:22-24 + Lk 22:19-20 + Jn 6:47-66 1 Cor 10:16; 11:23-30.
Reconciliation–Ex 32:20 + Lv 19:20-22 + Nm 5:6-7;14!9-23;17:11-13 + Mt 16:19; 18:18 + Lk 15:18-19 + Jn 20:23 + Acts 19:18 + 1 Cor 5:3-5 (with 2 Cor 2:6-11) + 2 Cor 5:18-20 + Jas 5:16 +1 Jn 1:8-9.
Anointing of the Sick– Mk 6:5,12-13 + Lk13:13 + Acts 9:17-18 + 1Cor12:9,30 +Jas 5:14-15
Holy Orders–Mt 18:18 + Lk 10:16; 22:19; 24:47 + Jn 13:20; 15:5 + Acts 6:6; 15:2-6; 20:17, 28; 21:18 + 1 Tm 3:1-7; 4:14; 5:17 + 2 Tm 1:6+ Ti 1:5-9 + 1Pt 5:1.
Matrimony–Mt 5: 5:31-32; 19:1-9 + Mk 10:2-12 + Lk 16:18 + Rom 7:2-3 + 1Cor 71-24; 7:39 + Heb 13:4 + 1 Pt 3:1-9.

The Song of Songs celebrates the love of husband wife: “My lover belongs to me and I to him.” (6:3).
The marriage covenant is a sign between Christ and His Church (Eph 5:25-32) The love of God and his people is fully consummated at “the wedding feast of the Lamb” (Rv 19:9).
Christ’s first miracle is at the wedding at Cana (Jn 2:1-11) in which "the ancient institution of matrimony (Gn 1:26-31; 2:18-25) has been raised to the level of a sacrament - an efficacious sign of God’s presence. ’
Ephesians use the word “mystery” to refer to marriage, which in Greek is also the word for “sacrament.”

 

[JRKH]

I was talking about the “first Catholic church” -(or: the first Christians) which in my opinion has very little to do what we understand now as the Catholic Church…

Or to be more specific, what you understand to now be the Catholic Church. I see teh ancient Church in the modern Church every day.

First of all: The Baptists didn’t remove anything! The Deuterocanonical Books were removed by the reformators (in particular Luther).
By the way: I could also say: Why don’t you have ALL books of the Septuaginta in your (Catholic) OT like the Orthodox? What about 3 Maccabees, or 1 Esdras or 2 Esdras? (and all the others from the Septuagint not even the Orthodox did include!)

And your point as regards the east west differences fits right into my point as well. You wish to restrict yourself (and St Paul) to only those 66 books that the protestants allow you. Do you really think that St Paul restricted himself in this way? He said ALL Scripture and he was writing to the Bishop of a “Gentile” community. Scripture to those people would certainly include ALL of the Septuigent.
Now - as to why the Catholic Bible does not include all of the Sept. I cannot answer, but I DO know that the Catholic Church respects charishes and utilizes these other books, as well as some of the NT apochrapha in it’s study and understanding and teaching.

So you would agree with the Mormons that the Canon is open? They do believe that…

The canon was closed at Trent. As a Catholic I accept that. but as I said above the closed canon does not totally negate the extra-biblical works as being useful.

What is the ecclesia? In the beginning, among the ancient Christians there was no ekklesia.

You mean you don’t know??
Ekklesia is the Greek word in NT Scripture that is translated as “Church”.
The meaning of Ekklesia is: an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating.
Thus it is the community of Chrisitans that consitute teh ekklesia, the pillar and bulwark of Truth.

All communities or Churches were seperate and also administered themselves.
You see, when I had started reading the Bible 8 years ago, I more and more realized that the CC as it is today, can’t be identical with the Ancient Christians. And I have been searching for quite a long time for “the Ancient Christians” and I think I found them among the Baptists. - The more I study the Holy Bible and hear sermons from our pastor or elder, the more sure I know that I am right were I am.

Ah yes. You seek to find how the ancient christians believe and worshiped. So you believe that the mustard bush should look just like the mustard seed eh?
Certainly the Church looks different today than it did 2000 years ago. It’s over a billion people today as opposed to a few thousands then.

As for the communities being seperate and self adminstering etc. Certainly each community took care of many of it’s own affairs, but they were not doctrinally independant like the Proestant communities are today. Such a view is totally non-biblical.

So let me ask you this.
What is the "piller and bulwark of Truth?
What has the Authority to Bind and Loose…Whatever?

Both times Christ. Christ is the head of the Church - nothing and nobody else.
Well, and as we are all priests, everybody has the authoritiy to bind and loose. - Everybody who truly is a disciple of Christ. This includes remission of sins, baptism, well nearly everything. - in Theory. In practice for such services people are voted in Church - for the position of the pastor or an elder for example.

Wrong. Read your bible and see what Christ and St Paul say about this.
1 Tim 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church (ekklesia) of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (ekklesia); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Matthew 16: 17-19
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build **My church **(ekklesia); and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Note also that the term Church (ekklesia) is used only twice in the Gospels. Both times by Christ and both times in connection with granting authority to The Church.

No, no everything alright! I will tell you if I can’t respond to you anymore. You know, there is a certain point normally, I simply can’t go further. - I hope I have the chance to go to a bible School ones.

Thanks.
The things I post are for your consideration. My hope is that, through prayer and reflection that you will someday find your way home as I did to the Catholic Church.

Peace
James

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I have to ask this as well on marriage Gospel according to St Matthew 5:31-32
“[31] And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. [32] But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.”

The bible clearly states that we are not to divorce yet Baptist allow for divorce.

 

[Zipporah]

I can see where marriage would be. God created Adam and Eve and joined them in marriage and told them to be fruitful.Genesis 2:18,Genesis 2:23-24…

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7322601]Hi all,

as you know, I am on the process leaving the CC for a Baptist Church.
This means that it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

You asked for a Lutheran view. So, first, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. 4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments.

Here are the 7 Catholic Sacraments:

**Baptism **-- is rather clear to me: There are several references in the New Testament (like the most famous John 3:5)

Here, the Lutheran view is almost identical to the Catholic view - it is a sacrament - one Baptism for the remission of sins. Luther strongly condemned anabaptism.

Eucharist – has been VERY often quoted here in CAF (John 6:54-55)

From a Lutheran view, the Gospel accounts and Paul’s account are better than John 6, as they say in Christ’s own words at the event - “This is my body”. And it is, indeed. From Luther: “Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss, I shall drink blood with the pope”. IOW, Transubstantiation is far the better explanation of the Lord’s Supper than a symbolic remembrance.

Reconciliation

The verse supporting it (Lutherans call it confession/ HolyAbsolution, has already been presented. Luther stronly support private confession, and the rite of Confession/Absolution appears in most Lutheran service books. As the Apology says above, this is a sacrament. Some Lutherans link Absolution so closely to Baptism, that they don’t list it as a separate sacrament. I, personally, reject that view.

Confirmation – Maybe Acts 2?
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick – James 5:14-15

Of the others, marriage, confirmation and unction could easily be considered sacraments, as they in some ways, meet the Apology’s definition. Orders, less so, though I consider quite important to the Church.

My question now is where in the Bible they are excately mentioned. I am wondering especially because Martin Luther for example said that Baptism and the Last Supper only can be found in the Bible. (Please correct me, dear Lutherans, if I am wrong…)

Curious that you invoke Luther, yet choose to reject his view of both sacraments you referred to as scriptural, and his view of both is essentially the view of the Church Catholic.

So, what I already know or believe to know, I have already written in the list. But I’d be really grateful if someone would tell me the exact Bible verses of the remnant 3 Sacraments (Reconciliation, Marriage and Holy Orders.)

I hope some of the other posters have helped you in this way.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

Yeah, but Paul writes in 2 Tim 3:16
“16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

And I would say with “all Scripture” he refers to what later (and I have to admit through the “original Catholic Church”) our Holy Bible.

in Christ,
Esdra

Sorry,but the above verse has been proved over and over that it has been taken out-of-context and St.Paul was not even hinting or advocating everything must be in the Bible or Sola Scriptura.

By the way, the first word reads “All” not “Only” scripture.

 

[JonNC]

=Esdra;7323092] I was talking about the “first Catholic church” -(or: the first Christians) which in my opinion has very little to do what we understand now as the Catholic Church…

Even as a Lutheran, I think this is overstated.

First of all: The Baptists didn’t remove anything! The Deuterocanonical Books were removed by the reformators (in particular Luther).
By the way: I could also say: Why don’t you have ALL books of the Septuaginta in your (Catholic) OT like the Orthodox? What about 3 Maccabees, or 1 Esdras or 2 Esdras? (and all the others from the Septuagint not even the Orthodox did include!)

Just a note; Luther’s translation included all of the 73 books typically found in a western Bible of his time. He did, however, add one - The Prayer of Manasses.
In fact the 1611 KJV had the Deuterocanon, as well. It was after that that protestant Bibles started excluding the D-C’s.

Jon

 

[pablope]

Hi all,

as you know, I am on the process leaving the CC for a Baptist Church.
This means that it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

Here are the 7 Catholic Sacraments:

**Baptism **-- is rather clear to me: There are several references in the New Testament (like the most famous John 3:5)
Eucharist – has been VERY often quoted here in CAF (John 6:54-55)

Reconciliation
Confirmation – Maybe Acts 2?
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick – James 5:14-15

My question now is where in the Bible they are excately mentioned. I am wondering especially because Martin Luther for example said that Baptism and the Last Supper only can be found in the Bible. (Please correct me, dear Lutherans, if I am wrong…)

So, what I already know or believe to know, I have already written in the list. But I’d be really grateful if someone would tell me the exact Bible verses of the remnant 3 Sacraments (Reconciliation, Marriage and Holy Orders.)

I’m really looking forward to your answers!

In Christ,
Esdra

I suggest Scott Hahn’s book on the Biblical basis of the Sacraments and Catholic beliefs. I think reading these books will give you a more concise and clearer Biblical basis of the CC.

Signs of Life: 40 Catholic Customs and Their Biblical Roots
Scott Hahn

The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass As Heaven on Earth
Scott Hahn

or: Swear to God: The Promise and Power of the Sacraments by Scott Hahn

 

[mark_a]

Hi all,

as you know, I am on the process leaving the CC for a Baptist Church.
This means that it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

Here are the 7 Catholic Sacraments:

**Baptism **-- is rather clear to me: There are several references in the New Testament (like the most famous John 3:5)
Eucharist – has been VERY often quoted here in CAF (John 6:54-55)

Reconciliation
Confirmation – Maybe Acts 2?
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick – James 5:14-15

My question now is where in the Bible they are excately mentioned. I am wondering especially because Martin Luther for example said that Baptism and the Last Supper only can be found in the Bible. (Please correct me, dear Lutherans, if I am wrong…)

So, what I already know or believe to know, I have already written in the list. But I’d be really grateful if someone would tell me the exact Bible verses of the remnant 3 Sacraments (Reconciliation, Marriage and Holy Orders.)

I’m really looking forward to your answers!

In Christ,
Esdra

Be sure to check out those pesky Catholic moral teachings before you write that letter to the bishop.

Best wishes.