The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[DebChris]

Thanks, DebChris,
The poster I was responding to, Esdra, made the comment that sometimes Baptists use Luther’s (Small) Catechism. It surprised me a bit considering that what’s in it seems unlike what my perception of what Baptists teach is. So, I was asking, in effect, how Baptists might use it.

My point in the post was that Lutherans number the 10 Commandments the same way Catholics do, and I was wondering how Baptists feel about that, since I don’t think they do (I could be wrong). I was also wondering if Baptists actually confess the Apostle’s Creed.

As for confession, while wha Luther said is true, it is also a means of grace, whereby the pastor/confessor grants absolution, in persona Christi.

Jon

It would make sense that Luther, an ordained Catholic priest, would teach about absolution. Through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the priest acts in persona Christi. The same is true during the Mass, and the reason that only the priest can consecrate the host.
Jon–I too take what a person of a particular faith or religion says he/she believes over my own perceptions. When I had to create a newsletter on the Mennonites, for example, I sent them a copy of what I had written to verify its accuracy. During the years following the Reformation when Christians failed to treat each other with brotherly love, Mennonites went to their deaths reciting the Apostles Creed as you and I know it. The Our Father is the other prayer that we share. Some denominations, i.e. Presbyterians, may say debtors rather than trespassers. The Doxology was included in some of the earliest catechisms, and is reflective of a Jewish tradition that adds to the basic prayer.
Anabaptist means “re-baptizers.” They see water Baptism as an outward sign of a personal conversion (The Baptism of the Spirit, or Believer’s Baptism) that has already taken place. While Catholic Church teaches about a Baptism of Blood and/or Fire; Anabaptists see this as more than martyrdom, but a lifelong dying to self.

While Esdra writes of living in a Catholic country, and culture, this has not been my case. I spent much of my childhood in Japan, a Shinto country. It is not until I lived in WI, that I lived in a region of the country that is predominantly Catholic. It is the first time I lived in a place where businesses closed at 1pm on Good Friday. I currently work in the Persian Gulf, in a Muslim country. As a resident of NC, I know what it is like to live in the Bible Belt.
I have worshiped with my separated brothers and sisters; a practice encouraged by my Catholic faith provided I first attend Mass and not partake of “communion” that may be offered.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Scott,
Yes, that’s my perception, as well, but I certainly would trust a Baptist’s word about what they teach over mine. Here are the topics in the Small Catechism

• Luther’s Preface to the Small Catechism
• The Ten Commandments
• The Creed
• The Lord’s Prayer
• The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
• Confession
• The Sacrament of the Altar
• Daily Prayers
• Table of Duties
• Christian Questions with Their Answers

There just doesn’t seem a great deal there that Baptists would teach from (outside of the Lord’s Prayer and maybe some things in the last three topics), but I may be wrong. In fact, I hope I am wrong.

Jon

Hi,

I have written that in a previous post in this thread I guess…
But: The Church I am visiting is not exactely what you might understand under Baptist (in fact they are definitely NOT Southern Baptist).
It’s a so called “free Evangelical Church” which is common in Austria and even more in Germany.
They are Baptists in the sense that they believe in Credo-Baptism only (and in sole fide, sola scriptura and sola gratia; And that you need to have a personal realtionship to Jesus - entrusting Him his life) - but I guess there are also some differences to the American Baptists what I have read so far about them here in CAF. But I thinkI know too less about the American Baptists to tell you more.
One fact that differs is certainly that “we” are not Anti-Catholic, especially because nearly all Church members in my Church are former Catholics (and some very few former Lutherns; and one [the wife of our Pastor] is a former Methodist; Pastor Willy and she are from Switzerland and there are quite a few Methodists).
It was just once that the decon (a femal by the way. Okay, I am not sure if she is a decon, but she normally “moderates” services. - which means she guides through the service and does all except blessing the Holy Supper and the sermon [which is normally done by our elder or the pastor or an invited guest pastor]) used Luther’s Catechism (Yes, I guess it must have been the small one). She is a former Lutheran.
But I am afraid that I don’t know WHAT she read from Luther’s Catechism - it’s been a while now…

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Well, as I am only a year now a Baptist, I actually don’t know why they celebrate it on the same day as the Catholics. I guess you can’t read it out from the Bible by “sola scriptura” ,that’s your point, right?

• To be perfectly honest: I don’t even really know why Easter is celebrated on Easter. - I know it has to do something with the Jewish Pesach-feast. - But I couldn’t explain exactely why Easter is celebrated when it is celebrated.

Esdra

It’s the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox.

 

[DebChris]

Esdra,
It has been my experience that many non-Catholic, non-mainstream Protestant churches do put a greater emphasis on fellowship than is found in the Catholic Church. I see how this may give the perception that they are more caring than what you have experienced in the Catholic Church. I reflected on this idea overnight.
I have a certain reserve about me that leads many to see me as stand-offish. A person with whom I worked brought this to my attention when we ate together one day. The members of my home parish are likewise reserved. It may only be after years of knowing each other that it finally dawns that these are lifelong friends who will always be there, in tough times as well as good.
Austrians, Germans, Scots, and Japanese are all known for their understated reserve. The French and Italians are viewed as much more outgoing and more likely to initiate friendships. There is an even more important reason that you may not see members of the Catholic Church reaching out to you. It is because, as I posted earlier, that our emphasis is not on the people around us when we are at Church. We go to Mass to worship God. Our single-minded focus on God may give the false appearance of non-caring.
Fellowship comes in the form of annual picnics and soup suppers. Parish events are announced at the end of Mass. How many of these invitations have you accepted? It comes from each individual taking his/her personal initiative to attend novenas, join prayer groups, pray the rosary with other parishioners, or attend the various other events that the parish does offer, from adult catechesis to fund raising dinners. We are called to service. Your grandmother cleaned the church. What have you offered? I am not asking you to publicly answer the last question, only to think about it.
You have already stated that your new church does not offer the meditative style prayers that are such a part of Catholicism. Before making a final decision to leave the Catholic Church, take another look at what it has to offer. As you see in my last post, remaining in the Catholic Church does not mean that you need to lose your new friends. If they choose to leave you for remaining in the Catholic Church, they are not truly your friends to begin with.

 

[StTommyMore]

Hi all,

as you know, I am on the process leaving the CC for a Baptist Church.
This means that it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

Here are the 7 Catholic Sacraments:

**Baptism **-- is rather clear to me: There are several references in the New Testament (like the most famous John 3:5)
Eucharist – has been VERY often quoted here in CAF (John 6:54-55)

Reconciliation
Confirmation – Maybe Acts 2?
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick – James 5:14-15

My question now is where in the Bible they are excately mentioned. I am wondering especially because Martin Luther for example said that Baptism and the Last Supper only can be found in the Bible. (Please correct me, dear Lutherans, if I am wrong…)

So, what I already know or believe to know, I have already written in the list. But I’d be really grateful if someone would tell me the exact Bible verses of the remnant 3 Sacraments (Reconciliation, Marriage and Holy Orders.)

I’m really looking forward to your answers!

In Christ,
Esdra

Reconciliation–John 20:21-23

21 Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Confirmation: You are correct. Since conformation is the Sacrament where we are sealed by the holy spirit and given the boldness to witness. When the Holy Spirit deceded on the Church in the Upper Room they were confirmed.

Holy Matrimony: Matthew 19: 3-9

3: And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” 4: He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5: and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6: So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” 7: They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” 8: He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9: And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Holy Orders: This one is a little more complex. First, in Jesus’ High Priestly prayer, the Apostles are consecrated. Note that this portion of the prayer is for the Apostles. : John 17:9-19

9: I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
10: all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12: While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

Also in John’s Gospel we have the actual Ordination ceremony: John 13:3-17

3: Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God,
4: rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel.
5: Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.
6: He came to Simon Peter; and Peter said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?”
7: Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not know now, but afterward you will understand.”
8: Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
9: Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
10: Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.”
11: For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”
12: When he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and resumed his place, he said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?
13: You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
14: If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.
15: For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you.
16: Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
17: If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

We know this is a priestly ordination because of the ordination of Aaron (Cf. Ex 29)
Anointing of the sick: you are correct in this as well.

 

[Brywan]

It’s the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox.

And WHY is that the day?!

 

[Mikeoffaith]

And WHY is that the day?!

First Council of Nicea. Again, Alexandria won the debate.

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
It has been my experience that many non-Catholic, non-mainstream Protestant churches do put a greater emphasis on fellowship than is found in the Catholic Church. I see how this may give the perception that they are more caring than what you have experienced in the Catholic Church. I reflected on this idea overnight.
I have a certain reserve about me that leads many to see me as stand-offish. A person with whom I worked brought this to my attention when we ate together one day. The members of my home parish are likewise reserved. It may only be after years of knowing each other that it finally dawns that these are lifelong friends who will always be there, in tough times as well as good.
Austrians, Germans, Scots, and Japanese are all known for their understated reserve. The French and Italians are viewed as much more outgoing and more likely to initiate friendships. There is an even more important reason that you may not see members of the Catholic Church reaching out to you. It is because, as I posted earlier, that our emphasis is not on the people around us when we are at Church. We go to Mass to worship God. Our single-minded focus on God may give the false appearance of non-caring.
Fellowship comes in the form of annual picnics and soup suppers. Parish events are announced at the end of Mass. How many of these invitations have you accepted? It comes from each individual taking his/her personal initiative to attend novenas, join prayer groups, pray the rosary with other parishioners, or attend the various other events that the parish does offer, from adult catechesis to fund raising dinners. We are called to service. Your grandmother cleaned the church. What have you offered? I am not asking you to publicly answer the last question, only to think about it.
You have already stated that your new church does not offer the meditative style prayers that are such a part of Catholicism. Before making a final decision to leave the Catholic Church, take another look at what it has to offer. As you see in my last post, remaining in the Catholic Church does not mean that you need to lose your new friends. If they choose to leave you for remaining in the Catholic Church, they are not truly your friends to begin with.

Hi,

thank you deb for this really nice post.
In the time I was a more or less faithful Catholic we had a priest (a very traditional and conservative one from the Czech Republic who couldn’t speak proper German although living 20 years in Austria) and there were NO activities. Our parish didn’t like him too much and he blocked all attempts to bring life into our parish (so not only my mom was affected who wanted to bring a bit of the Charismatic Renewal into the parish but also other attempts).
Since 2004 he has been dead now.
In the meantime our parish and the neighboring has the same priest and is one now - as far as I know there are in the meantime activities offered in this (big) parish, but when all these things started I was already searching and not really interested anymore in the CC.
Then I found the Baptist Church I am visiting at the moment and since then I haven’t much information what’s going on in my parish…

Actually, in the meantime it would be much better in our parish (compared to then when my whole family, except granny and grandpa, had left), but I am not Catholic anymore, at least I don’t feel like one anymore.

Esdra

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Esdra…

My girlfriend is German and is Lutheran. We found each other online after losing touch about 20 years ago. She was going through a period of time of searching…went even to Poona, India got involved in eastern mysticism. She is back as a Lutheran and I enjoy hearing her daily customs of celebrating Advent.

I think the Germans have the most beautiful expression of Christmas.

I think the Catholic Church is indeed lacking in fellowship because the people who could alleviate it have left. I think when we return to the Banquet Table…our faith will be so enriched…we need the faith and charism of others.

It is in diversity that we have unity…

Keep you in prayers…you are very sincere! God bless you!

 

[DebChris]

Hi Esdra…

My girlfriend is German and is Lutheran. We found each other online after losing touch about 20 years ago. She was going through a period of time of searching…went even to Poona, India got involved in eastern mysticism. She is back as a Lutheran and I enjoy hearing her daily customs of celebrating Advent.

I think the Germans have the most beautiful expression of Christmas.

I think the Catholic Church is indeed lacking in fellowship because the people who could alleviate it have left. I think when we return to the Banquet Table…our faith will be so enriched…we need the faith and charism of others.

It is in diversity that we have unity…

Keep you in prayers…you are very sincere! God bless you!

I am going to tag on here. One of the differences between St. Francis and Martin Luther, is that St. Francis worked within the Church to renew it in obedience to God. I am not overlooking the time in which Martin Luther lived, and how events spun out of his control.
All of us become impatient at times when change does not occur as quickly as we like, when it seems like nobody is listening, when we come face to face with skepticism.
My now deceased brother said one of the things he liked about Vatican II was learning that his Shinto-Presbyterian friends were not doomed to hell. While the Council of Trent was very much a reaction to the events of the times, the passage of time has meant taking a second look at what divided us. There is a concerted effort to address those differences, to look at what we share in common.
We are members of the one body. As St. Paul says in his analogy, simply because the eye says it no longer belongs to the body, does not make it so. It is true that some members of the body do get more attention than others. That does not mean that any is less important to the overall health of the body. When one part of the body hurts, the whole body hurts. We do need each other and the gifts each has to offer.
My current parish is the most active parish to which I have belonged. Most of its members come from India and the Philippines. Living in WI meant driving 50 miles to the nearest prayer group until an accident destroyed my vehicle. Sometimes we need to come down from the mountain top and work in the valley. The snow of winter covering the seed does not keep it from blossoming in Spring, in God’s time.

 

[Hesychios]

A note to the interested: I think we must be careful not to assume the Baptists of Austria are just like the typical Baptists in the USA. They will be similar, but it wouldn’t do to assume they are completely alike.

 

[StTommyMore]

A note to the interested: I think we must be careful not to assume the Baptists of Austria are just like the typical Baptists in the USA. They will be similar, but it wouldn’t do to assume they are completely alike.

With respect to Baptists, it is incorrect to assume that Baptists are the same even in the same town, but at different churches

 

[Esdra]

A note to the interested: I think we must be careful not to assume the Baptists of Austria are just like the typical Baptists in the USA. They will be similar, but it wouldn’t do to assume they are completely alike.

Hi,

thank you: this is really important to mention.
I also think that what you understand under Baptists is not really the same than what I mean when I talk about my Church.

As a previous poster in this thread has written that the Baptists don’t share the Apostolic Creed:
I can tell you, this is false. They do share the Apostolic Creed.
I have just checked on the homepage of the alliance of “free evangelical churches” as well as on the baptist homepage! - So at least in Austria do the Baptists share the Apostolic Creed with all other Christians.

You see - there are also Baptists in Austria, but they are much less in number than the “Evangelical Free Churches”.
But I don’t know what the difference is, really… I know for example that one church member of our Church is a Baptist, but visits our Free Evangelical Church. Or others are from Every Nation (a pentecostal Church; They are international, so you maybe know them?)…
Maybe the Austrian Baptists are more structured/organised?
I know from the Evangelical free Churches i.e. that every Church keeps itself. That’s also the reason why there is no real “Head of Church” (in this, Austria’s, case general secretary) like among Baptists, but an ***alliance ***(see above).

But as all those Churches above are really minority Churches, I guess they stick more together than their American brothers and sisters. So I guess there is also less fighting between the “personal relationship to Christ Churches” here in Austria than in the US.

I would count to this group of Christians:
Evangelical Free Churches (alliance: BEG)
Baptists
Mennonites and
Pentecostal Churches (with the biggest one: Assemblies of God [better said the Austrian Sister-Church, called "Free Church of **Christ/Pentecostal Church"])
EDIT:
Actually the Seventh-Day-Adventists would also belong to that group.
But they are somehow rejected as a sect by all the other churches mentioned above. So there is no contact at all of these to the SDA.

You will find my Church I am attending at the moment on BEG under “Gemeinden” (Churches) → “Tirol” (my home county) → “Evangelikale Freikirche Imst” (with the homepage EFK-Imst).

I hope this was intersting for you.

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[Esdra]

I am going to tag on here. One of the differences between St. Francis and Martin Luther, is that St. Francis worked within the Church to renew it in obedience to God. I am not overlooking the time in which Martin Luther lived, and how events spun out of his control.
All of us become impatient at times when change does not occur as quickly as we like, when it seems like nobody is listening, when we come face to face with skepticism.
My now deceased brother said one of the things he liked about Vatican II was learning that his Shinto-Presbyterian friends were not doomed to hell. While the Council of Trent was very much a reaction to the events of the times, the passage of time has meant taking a second look at what divided us. There is a concerted effort to address those differences, to look at what we share in common.
We are members of the one body. As St. Paul says in his analogy, simply because the eye says it no longer belongs to the body, does not make it so. It is true that some members of the body do get more attention than others. That does not mean that any is less important to the overall health of the body. **When one part of the body hurts, the whole body hurts. We do need each other and the gifts each has to offer. **
My current parish is the most active parish to which I have belonged. Most of its members come from India and the Philippines. Living in WI meant driving 50 miles to the nearest prayer group until an accident destroyed my vehicle. Sometimes we need to come down from the mountain top and work in the valley. The snow of winter covering the seed does not keep it from blossoming in Spring, in God’s time.

Hi chris,

that’s really a nice post. With many parts I can really agree with the fulness of my heart.
The bold and italic parts are my favourites.
This is what I kept saying quite often here on CAF, as well when talking to people outside my Church.

Esdra

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, it is good to read about the different forms of the Baptists.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra…

My girlfriend is German and is Lutheran. We found each other online after losing touch about 20 years ago. She was going through a period of time of searching…went even to Poona, India got involved in eastern mysticism. She is back as a Lutheran and I enjoy hearing her daily customs of celebrating Advent.

I think the Germans have the most beautiful expression of Christmas.

I think the Catholic Church is indeed lacking in fellowship because the people who could alleviate it have left. I think when we return to the Banquet Table…our faith will be so enriched…we need the faith and charism of others.

It is in diversity that we have unity…

Keep you in prayers…you are very sincere! God bless you!

Hi,

yes, how we and the Germans celebrate Christmas and Advent is really wonderful.
When my sister and I were still young we sat on every Sunday evening (1st to 4th Advent Sunday) in the evening in front of our Christmas wreath, sang Christmas songs, and read from the Bible or diverse Christmas stories.
That was just wonderful.
And on Christmas Eve all are impatiently waiting for the bell to ring (which means that the “Christkind” [Jesus as a baby who brings the presents in Austria and Germany] has put all presents under the Christmas Tree. Then we hear the Christmas gospel (Luke) and sing some Christmas songs then we can unwrap our presents and then we eat together. And at midnight we go to Church (as I am the only Baptist in family, of course in the Catholic mass) - when my sister and I were young, we of course went to the “children’s Christmas mass” which is traditionall at 5 p.m. or so.

But sadly enought Santa Clause is also kreeping more and more into our Christmas.
And as religion and tradition is nowadays considered rather “uncool”, I am sure that sooner or later Santa will drive the Christkind out.

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Reconciliation–John 20:21-23

Confirmation: You are correct. Since conformation is the Sacrament where we are sealed by the holy spirit and given the boldness to witness. When the Holy Spirit deceded on the Church in the Upper Room they were confirmed.

Holy Matrimony: Matthew 19: 3-9

Holy Orders: This one is a little more complex. First, in Jesus’ High Priestly prayer, the Apostles are consecrated. Note that this portion of the prayer is for the Apostles. : John 17:9-19

Also in John’s Gospel we have the actual Ordination ceremony: John 13:3-17

We know this is a priestly ordination because of the ordination of Aaron (Cf. Ex 29)
Anointing of the sick: you are correct in this as well.

Hi Tommy,

thank you for this very good post.
I guess you have answered my OP best.

in Christ,
Esdra

 

[jlhargus]

Holy Orders

JL: As a fromer non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church member, this is my Scriptural reasons and understanding for HOLY ORDERS.

What the group gathered and SENT by Christ was called at any given time or place does not matter in the lest. What matters is continuity with that One SENT Fellowship, thru HOLY ORDERS. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, ** I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.

The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given sent, with his authority, the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe ALL he taught. They were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule, by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.

The apostles sit on thrones judging, they also eat and drink at Christ’s table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink, Christ’s body and blood, at every mass.

When Peter is converted HIS FAITH WILL NEVER FAIL, he is to STRENGTHEN ALL THE BRETHREN as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular in the Greek) Peter’s faith fail not. This was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” [THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood, the lambs and the sheep, the young and the old, the little ones and the great.

[Acts2:41 Then **THEY THAT gladly **RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND **the same day there were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And **THEY CONTINUED **stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] What were they added to? ONE VISABLE APOSTLIC FELLOWSHIP, ONE DOCTRINE, Breaking of Bread is another term for mass, and in prayers (liturgy). CONTINUED
CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

HOLY ORDERS CONTINUED:

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands, from the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END. [Hb13:7 **Remember them which HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU , who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Hb13:17 OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

Ordination gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable ordained to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, **TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.] ONE Correct DOCTRINE is of utmost importance to that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP, thru correct DOCTRINE people are saved.

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

 

[Esdra]

HOLY ORDERS CONTINUED:

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands, from the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END. [Hb13:7 **Remember them which HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU

, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Hb13:17 OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

Ordination gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable ordained to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, **TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.] ONE Correct DOCTRINE is of utmost importance to that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP, thru correct DOCTRINE people are saved.

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

Hi JL,

thank you so much for this detailled essay about where the Holy orders are in the Holy Bible.
You’ve put quite a lot of effort into that.
That’s very kind of you.

in Christ,
Esdra