The Seven Catholic Sacraments

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Hi

actually the parable of the prodigal son comes to my mind here when I started reflecting about the last few posts here in this thread. (Luke 15:11-32)

The father did his son let go, right? What would have happened if the father didn’t let his son go?

So you!

I am the “prodigal son”, and if there is really something in the CC, I guess once when I have realized that will come back to it, just like the prodigal son has gone back to his father!
BUT before that he had to **realize **that he should’ve never gone away from his father!

(By the way: our Baptitst pastor has used this parable in a sermon ones to demonstrate that we need a relationship to God and that we need to accept Jesus as our Lord;
The Son going away is an ordinary man, he commits sins, but then goes back to the father and becomes a (reborn) Christian. I guess these verses are in General very popular among the reborns! :))

Esdra
 
Hi

well, to be perfectly honest, yes.

You could say so…

To stay with the Mormons: They also believe in sola scriptura and can’t find it in their Holy Scriptures…

You see, it took me 8 years of my life to build up “my own theology” based on the bible.
And guess what happened? Baptists (and other fundamentalists who have sola scriptura or/ and are “reborns”) believe nearly exactly the same!

Can you imagine how astonished I was to have finally found people that think as I do. That I understand them and that they understand me?
They are a family. I was at once adopted.
I have never realized anything like that in the CC (and at least I was 16 years of my life a more or less good Catholic!)

Esdra
Well i have been studying scripture for 20 years. Been part of charismatic, house churches and baptist churches over that time span. Can you imagine my surprise when I realized that they were all following interpretations and traditions that the church had never practiced or held before 1500? Yes much like you, I felt commonality with these folks, but that is because my knowledge was limited. When you read a sentence out of context then it means different than what it means in context. You are taking a meaning of scripture that is out of context. The catholic church makes perfect sense to me now. Unlike all those churches, where you think u have an agreement with them but the truth is everyone is his own pope accepting only his own definition.

The irony is that by accepting scripture as your only authority, and especially in the way you have admitted doing it, you have actually denied scripture as being your only authority.

Since you admit that you don’t care if it is taught in scripture, then you have no basis for rejecting any teaching that is not found in scripture. You are more bold than Martin Luther. He said that unless he can be convinced by scripture and clear reason. You have ejected scripture and clear reason. How odd.
 
Hi

thanks.

See this is post that’d help me!

I am young, I am in my Free Evangelical Church and I am feeling well there.
In fact I am feeling like one of them. (And not like a Catholic).

And although I already have known that that I can go back to the CC in case that I’ll be welcomed with open arms, from other posts here in CAF (before I didn’t. I’ve even thought that “the seperated brothers” are seen as sects and as dangerous etc, because I’ve seen that attidude from various Catholics.…)
I will certainly keep this, your, sentence in my heart.

And I hope that I’d really be able to find my home in the CC when everything other scatters apart (concerning protestantism).

Esdra
Just a note on the bolded section above. Such sects ARE dangerous, or at least can be, especially for one who is already received into the Catholic Church as you are. That is why you have seen this attitude among Catholics. You will also likely see this same attitude reflected by some protestants toward the Catholic Church (commonly refered to as being “anti-catholic”)

I don’t know if you have read the Catholic Church Catechism but it addresses how The Church views the “seperated bretheren” in THIS SECTION, particularly in the section, “wounds to unity” (para’s 817-819).

If you have not read the Catechism I strongly advise that you do. The one I have linked to has a good search feature that can help you find and address specific questions/issues, and the extensive footnoting can guide you to the many source documents that will, I’m sure demonstrate how thoroughly correct the Church is in Her tehacings.

Peace
James
 
There is no requirement in Christianity to be able to read. Anything that we do read, we read from our own personal background knowledge. During a time when few could read, St. John of the Cross writes that the priest reads the Word and the people read the priest. Sola Scriptura would presume that all could read. If the ability to read were all that was needed, there would be no need to proclaim the Word of God from the pulpit. During Mass, we are nourished by the Word when it is proclaimed either by the priest or lector. We are also nourished by the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ when we receive Him in the Eucharist.

What do we need to be a Good Christian? We need Christ.
As scripture says, we are merely the branches on the vine which is Christ. Without Him, we can do nothing. With God, and through Christ I can do all things.
We need to open ourselves to the working of the Holy Spirit within us in order to lead a “good Christian life.” St. Paul even recognizes that “I do that which I would not do and do not do that which I would.” Regardless of intentions, we all sin. We need the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the power of the Holy Spirit to “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”
In an earlier post, I quoted from the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation the three fold necessity of Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.
I also posted various scripture passages supporting each of the Sacraments.

I do not know how much scripture you have read to this point. I have read the Bible several times, in different translations, using a simple process of 3 chapters a day plus 5 on Sunday. This allows an individual to pray the entire Bible in one year.
Every Mass includes at least one OT or NT reading, a psalm, plus the Gospel within the Liturgy of the Word. Within a three year period, a person attending daily Mass would hear most of the Bible proclaimed. Most of the prayers within the Mass can be found within Scripture.
Many Catholics also pray the Liturgy of the Hours, including the Office of Readings which provides another great way to read Scripture. There is also the practice of Lectio Divina. There is a richness within the Catholic Church that cannot be found elsewhere.
 
Hi Esdra…

Don’t mean to overwhelm you…the Church is the fulfillment of Scripture…The Tradition of understanding the Gospels with the Word of God are based on testimony that is part of the gathering of faith of the people – a united whole.

If any human community fragments, then in time it is the death of the community. Because we need each other to survive. With the Church, however, we have not only witness, history, but the life giving presence of Christ through the Holy Spirit. We have to have administrators to protect and maintain the ‘message’, and your Baptist community has theirs.

But what we are addressing is the division, and the break or fragmenting away from our roots, our common and shared history of 1500 years…

And now with Baptists and other fundamentalist congregations, the fragmention has led to a death of relationship, of unity.

The more a congregation disregards a sacrament – the visible, concrete outward sign of the inner reality of Christ – how much harder it is to understand or communicate…and …

As you say the Catholic Church claims to be the true Church – meaning it has the fullness of revealing Who God is in relation to Jesus Christ – the non-Catholic fundamentalist congregations in their break oftentimes, not all, have an ongoing antagonistic and invalidating and unhistorical agitation towards the Church. So it goes both ways.

So when Protestants break from no longer having penance, Eucharist, confirmation, Holy Orders, matrimony (permanent) they are designated ecclesial communities…there are so many, may be up to 40,000 individual and fragmented communities on their own. But through baptism, a Catholic rite…they are still united as separated Catholic brethren.

When you are baptized, you are essential baptized into the mystical Body of Christ in the Catholic Church. And Esdra, you are here because you are experiencing the pull of baptism – to be home and grounded with us, even if you do not worship with us.

Does your faith community ongoingly pray for the unity of all Christians? This oneness is part of the charism of the Catholic Church and it is part of our Sunday prayers.

As Jesus made a continual prayer that we all be one, we as Catholics follow Jesus in continuing to pray the same prayer as His…that we as brothers and sisters in Jesus be one…not on superficial face value, but together at the Banquet Table.
 
Hi,

concerning praying for unity:
here in Austria I’ve never heard that in a single mass!
I have just heared about that here in CAF and I think it’s great, 'though I am asking myself, why this isn’t done in a Catholic country like Austria!
  1. I know from our pastor who is praying for unity constantly. (Although he actually only wants the denominations to talk to each other and especially pray with each other and also for each other).
    In service is everybody free to pray what he wants after the worship-part (songs).
    So it can be that people also pray for unity there. But it doesn’t have to be each each Sunday.
Esdra
 
Esdra,

Europe simply does not have the fragmentation of Christianity like we have here in the USA.

The Sunday Mass is the greatest feastday in the Catholic Church. Our construct is not based on a reaction against other Christians. The Catholic Church is based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as Atonement for sin, for breaking the power of darkness and giving us life…each day is a new life, a new beginning in the Lord. And we come to the Lord as a gathering of people. Our faith centers around the Lord.

At every Mass, and especially on Sunday in honor of the Resurrected Lord, we experience the same presence and power of Him as happened 2,000 years ago, and it is time for the faith community to come together in public to proclaim this truth.

It is good to know your pastor prays for unity…a great grace.
 
here in Austria I’ve never heard that in a single mass!
Have you ever been to a Mass between January 18-25? There is an entire Week of Prayer for Christian Unity which is traditionally celebrated during this week. This octave was first conceived in 1907, and received papal blessings beginning with Pope St. Pius X on December 27, 1909 – and I know you’re not over 100 years old 😉

Also, the Liturgy of the Word on Good Friday concludes with a series of prayers: for the Church, the Pope, the clergy and laity of the Church, those preparing for baptism, the unity of Christians, the Jewish people, those who do not believe in Christ, those who do not believe in God, those in public office, and those in special need. These prayers have been said for hundreds of years.
 
On the issue of unity, many Protestants will claim that they already have “unity” among the saved. That this unity is not visible and heirachal but it none the less exists and nothing more is necessary. This is quite false and misleading.
I say this to our friend Esdra because as he explores Protestantism he is bound to hear such things.

After careful thought and discussions with a number of protesants on the matter I have come to this conclusion. While it may be true that we have a spiritual connection to other believers, this connection to them and to the Holy Spirit should drive believers toward a physical and authoritative unity for the purpose of protecting, defending, and teaching the Gospel Truths.
This is both what Chris prayed for, Paul exhorted us to and what is clearly demostrated in the famous council in Acts.

Those who do not feel “driven” to such visible and authoritative unity in the face of mounting fragmentation in the Protestant sphere are, frankly, hiding their heads in the sand. Instead of facing up to the facts of doctrinal chaos, all “bible based” and seeking to humbly take council with each other, they declare that “visible unity” is not really necessary…We’re all united in Christ…

My Dear Esdra, beware of this “snare” of the evil one…

Peace
James
 
Think of a divided home…with no common belief…

There is no common prayer.
 
Think of a divided home…with no common belief…

There is no common prayer.
Kathleen,
I think this takes it too far. The Catechism clearly says that there are common beliefs and that God uses other ecclesial communities as means of salvation. Therefore, there certainly can be common prayer.
From the Catechism:
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Peace
James
 
Children who leave the Church, no longer want to pray with their family, no more shared values and customs, not the previous freedom of sharing, loving…that is what I am referring to here…a divided house, just like our country,
 
Think of a divided home…with no common belief…

There is no common prayer.
One contemporary Christian song talks about the need for a creed. My thought when I heard that song is “We already have one.” We have the Apostles Creed and we have the Nicene Creed. Both serve as a summary of what we believe.
I have visited different denominations. I have heard mainline Protestant denominations criticized. Those “non-denominational” churches which criticize the mainline churches have not been through the persecutions that Christians have endured since the death of Jesus Christ. The Church endures “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39).
Kathleen,
I think this takes it too far. The Catechism clearly says that there are common beliefs and that God uses other ecclesial communities as means of salvation. Therefore, there certainly can be common prayer.
From the Catechism:
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

Peace
James
As posted earlier, every Christian community that I have visited prays the Our Father. Most include the Apostles or Nicene Creed with its stated belief in "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
 
Children who leave the Church, no longer want to pray with their family, no more shared values and customs, not the previous freedom of sharing, loving…that is what I am referring to here…a divided house, just like our country,
Yes, but to say there is no common prayer denies both the catechism and the Bible which clearly states that where two or three are together in Christ’s name, there He is among them.
This does not deny the serious differences and problems that arise from our divided and “disfunctional” family of believers but to say as you did that there is no common prayer is simply incorrect and can only serve to seperate us more.

Peace
James
 
I am getting down to the nitty gritty day to day stuff…

When kids leave the parents’ faith, you can no longer have family prayer with them…even if they go to another denomination…if it is telling your kids that the Catholic Church is a man made church, they won’t want to pray with you…prosperity non-denominational congregations, the local young peoples church where they are rebaptized to wipe out the Catholicism, and then dunked in a jacuzzi…rock bands, having a memorial of eating bread and then it is tossed in the garbage…kids can’t think right.

I live in about the highest substance abuse city in the country. So many kids get off and the parishes are having a hard time relating faith to teens and young adults. Even if you are in a parish with a strong community, it is still not drawing the young people unless they are already committed.
 
Esdra,
At the beginning of this thread, you stated that you were “in the process of leaving the CC.” That means you have not quite left and yes, the rest of us would like to see you reconsider your position. Even if you should leave, you have a home in which to return.
Many who leave the Church do so because they have not been properly catechized. You have stated several times throughout this thread that this is indeed your case. Knowing your catechism makes it easier to resist the temptation to leave the Mystical Body of Christ. When you were baptized into the Catholic Church, you were baptized into the community that makes up the Church, into the Mystical Body of Christ. Using St. Paul’s analogy, you remain a part of the Body just as an eye cannot say it is not a part of the body because it cannot hear, or an ear because it cannot see.
Your Catholic Faith can very well be fed by the Catholic culture in which you live. I am not the only one on CAF living in a culture in which the Catholic Church is not at the center. You are surrounded by the Church’s richness. While your “instruction” in the Catholic faith may be limited, I am saddened that you choose leaving the Church rather than discovering what the Church does have to offer. Ours is indeed a rich faith. It is a religion of simplicity with a depth that cannot be fathomed no matter how long we live.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptisms into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.( Romans 6:3-4)
Belief is more than feeling, more than experiencing the Eucharist, although putting your faith in God can lead to experiencing His real presence. We, as members of His Church, must take the first step. That step is a faith response to the Faith which we have been given.
In the Mass, we are nourished not only by His written Word, but also by Christ Himself in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the source and summit of our Faith.
 
I want to get into the Liturgy of the Eucharist…but it is formed as fulfillment from the ancient Jewish temple practices…
 
Purgatory is not really to be found in the Holy Bible when you reject the deuteros as Holy Scripture!
JL: Do you reject the NT deuteros also, such as Hebrews, James, Revelation, Jude and a couple others? The first list of canon books OT & NT everyone accpted without dispute. The deutors or second list of canon books OT & NT some disputed as inspiried, so they are called second canon or deuterocanonical.

The word purgatory isn’t found in scripture, nor is the word trinity. Although the word purgatory is not in scripture, the concept is found in scripture. Christ uses the word PRISON to describe a temporary place of restitution. Jews pray for their dead for eleven months after their death.

[Mt5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art **IN THE WAY with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, TILL thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.

[Mt 28:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the tormentors till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses]

[1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORD OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

[Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.] [HEB 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.]

How can a WORK be carried with us into death when we are spirit, and take nothing with us? Works are brought to the judgement in the HEART or SOUL’S intention. Was the intention of the work, for love of God, or for the praise it will bring to self, or even half and half? That inclination, to works of wood, hay, stubble, will be purged by fire or suffering to render the soul pure. Just as gold which has impurities and is purified, as though by fire. The HEART or soul must be separated from the impure works of wood, hay or stubble. Those in purgatory cannot help themselves. They can be helped by our prayers and sacrifices offered to God on their behalf.

[Jer 17:9 THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 ** I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.]

[Mk7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that WHATSOEVER THING FROM WITHOUT ENTERETH INTO THE MAN, it CANNOT DEFILE HIM; 19 Because IT ENTERETH NOT into HIS HEART, BUT INTO THE BELLY, and goeth out into the draught, PRUGING ALL MEATS? 20 And he said, **THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF THE MAN, that DEFILETH THE MAN. 21 For FROM WITHIN, OUT OF THE HEART of men, PROCEED EVIL thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,] When we die, we take nothing with us, we are at our core being=soul from which pure or impure actions come. the same work can be gold or hay, depending on the intention of the heart, whether done for love of God or love of self. It is from within our heart or core being, from which sin comes, that’s what needs to be purified, of the inclination to impure works.

[1Pt4:18 And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

[Mt 12:[Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN him, NEITHER in this world, **NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME. 33 EITHER MAKE THE TREE GOOD AND its fruit good OR make the tree BAD and its fruit bad for the tree is known by its fruit 34 You brood of vipers! how can you speak good when you are evil For out of the abundance OF THE HEART the mouth speaks 35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil 36 I tell you on the day of judgment men will RENDER ACCOUNT FOR EVERY CARLESS WORD they utter] Neither in the world to come idicates some things can be forgiven in the nex world.] Some trees can be MADE good only thru suffering either in this life or in the next.
CONTINUED:
 
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