The Seven Hills

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Irishmen10 said:
Rome is known as the city of “Seven Hills”. I personally have never been to Rome and don’t know what these “hills” look like or the locations of them. I was talking with a friend a few days ago and he mentioned to me that Rome (the city of seven hills) was the prophesy of John in Revelation 17:9.
9 'This calls for shrewdness. The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman is sitting.

Obviously we need to look at the entire context first to fully understand the importance of this statement.

Revelation 17: 4-14
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet and glittered with gold and jewels and pearls, and she was holding a gold winecup filled with the disgusting filth of her prostitution;
5 on her forehead was written a name, a cryptic name: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of all the prostitutes and all the filthy practices on the earth.’
6 I saw that she was drunk, drunk with the blood of the saints, and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus; and when I saw her, I was completely mystified.
7 The angel said to me, 'Do you not understand? I will tell you the meaning of this woman, and of the beast she is riding, with the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 'The beast you have seen was once alive and is alive no longer; it is yet to come up from the Abyss, but only to go to its destruction. And the people of the world, whose names have not been written since the beginning of the world in the book of life, will be astonished when they see how the beast was once alive and is alive no longer, and is still to come.
9 'This calls for shrewdness. The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman is sitting.
10 The seven heads are also seven emperors. Five of them have already gone, one is here now, and one is yet to come; once here, he must stay for a short while.
11 The beast, who was alive and is alive no longer, is at the same time the eighth and one of the seven, and he is going to his destruction.
12 ‘The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet been given their royal power but will have royal authority only for a single hour and in association with the beast.
13 They are all of one mind in putting their strength and their powers at the beast’s disposal,
14 and they will go to war against the Lamb; but because the Lamb is Lord of lords and King of kings, he will defeat them, he and his followers, the called, the chosen, the trustworthy.’

And so, my friend claims that because the Catholic Church is the Church of Rome and Rome is the city of Seven Hills, that the Catholic Church is the women described in the revelation. I would like to hear the point of view of Catholics and non-Catholics alike in their explanation of this passage. I myself am not saying that my friend is right or wrong, but I have contemplated this theory for a while and am wondering if there are any answers out there.

God Bless!
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In the ancient world, this would have been understood as the city of Rome, and by metonymy, the Roman Empire.
 
Dave_Noonan said:
In the ancient world, this would have been understood as the city of Rome, and by metonymy, the Roman Empire.
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I think this pretty well sums it up. John, assuming he was the writer of Revelation, wasn’t referring to the Catholic Church, but the then extant Roman Empire which was persecuting Christians very brutally.

And the Vatican now encloses, as far as I know, only one hill. And these cranks who constantly misinterpret Revelation and the Catholic Church as the ant-Christ need to do a bit of thinking for themselves for a change, instead of recycling all of this gumph.

Apparently they don’t realise the Vatican doesn’t even rule Rome, let alone a secular empire.
 
I believe that when such individuals use Scripture to malign other people by such false hoods, and using the Sacred Word of God to do it, are in sin, and doing the work of Satan.

There is the image of the locusts…vain men with long hair who have the power to poison souls with heresy preventing them from entering into the life of Christ through the Eucharist.

Ancient Christians who lived in those times, who witnessed the brutality of the Roman Empire with its enslavement of people and to its own flesh, found a brand new life, discovered holiness, in coming to Christ and being made one with Him in the Breaking of the Bread, the Eucharist. They experienced such a profound life in God through Christ, that it was as if they themselves, sharing in the life of Christ, were part of God Himself.

Such was a profound experience, that many wanted nothing more of this life than Christ, and chose to live celibate lives.
 
Irishmen10, to begin with, if you have a Catholic or mainstream Protestant background, the way in which Mormons interpret Revelations is entirely different than how we do. There’s is similar to how Fundamental Evangelicals interpret Revelations.

With that in mind, Mormons interpret that particular passage as prophecy of something to come, rather than what it is, which is relating something that is happening at the time that it was written.

At the time it was written, Christians were being persecuted by the Roman emperor. Mormonism assigns these contemporary events to prophecy, with the interpretation that the events are talking about themselves. In this case, they are trying to prop up their doctrine of a “great apostasy”. Referencing also their extant scriptures of “a great and abominable church”, which was taught to LDS as being the Catholic Church. Until relatively recently they have toned down the anti-Cathoilc rhetoric, at least when they are speaking to Catholics. Among themselves, these teachings persist, as you can see.
 
Irishmen10 said:
Rome is known as the city of “Seven Hills”. I personally have never been to Rome and don’t know what these “hills” look like or the locations of them. I was talking with a friend a few days ago and he mentioned to me that Rome (the city of seven hills) was the prophesy of John in Revelation 17:9.
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This is correct.
ad was written a name, a cryptic name: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of all the prostitutes and all the filthy practices on the earth.’
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Babylon was a city, not a religion/church therefore it can only be code for another city.
And so, my friend claims that because the Catholic Church is the Church of Rome and Rome is the city of Seven Hills, that the Catholic Church is the women described in the revelation.
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The Catholic Church is not the Church of Rome, but the Universal Church. That would be the understanding of the early Christians too. Also remind your friend that St. John who wrote Revelations was a Catholic. :signofcross:
 
Irishmen10 said:
Rome is known as the city of “Seven Hills”. I personally have never been to Rome and don’t know what these “hills” look like or the locations of them. I was talking with a friend a few days ago and he mentioned to me that Rome (the city of seven hills) was the prophesy of John in Revelation 17:9.

(…)

God Bless!
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Well… on one side of the Tiber, there are the seven hills of pagan antiquated Rome… (where the city was in the 1st century, naturally its borders and size grew). On the other side is the Vatican. Why don’t you try swimming the Tiber and coming over to the side of Christ’s Church.

http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/2053/133397-o_brother3_super.jpg
C’mon in boys, the [Tiber] is fine!
 
And so, my friend claims that because the Catholic Church is the Church of Rome and Rome is the city of Seven Hills, that the Catholic Church is the women described in the revelation. I would like to hear the point of view of Catholics and non-Catholics alike in their explanation of this passage. I myself am not saying that my friend is right or wrong, but I have contemplated this theory for a while and am wondering if there are any answers out there.
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He is DEAG WRONG! Your friend has the slighest clue about history, in particular Roman History. Simply because the RCC is inside of Rome does not prove or mean it is the women in Revelation. Vatican Hill was NOT part of the seven hills Romans referred to throughout history. People really should learn history before making the most absurd claims and arguments. All your friend did is parrot an anti-Catholic statement that even a college freshman taking Western Civilization 101 can rebuke as nonsense.
 
That is the problem with Mormonism and anti-Catholic fundamentalists is that they do not know history, geography, anthropology…and some do not want to know.

There is such a thing as sinful ignorance.
 
Yes, I second it…Mormons, and all the others who were taught to believe our Church the great beast, the ********, pray to the Lord for strength of faith to seek truth.

We Catholics must pray very much for them. Reasoning can only go so far.

God bless everyone.
 
Mwok…

Yes, the Mass is the final link for people to understand Scripture…then Everything comes together.

Irishman…I would forget about the 7 hills stuff.

I am glad you are here…but seek the Truth, Veritatis Splendor…the Splendor of Truth that never fails. We fail, God knows that, But He is always here to restore us to Him.

It is about Christ, not us.

If you want to believe in a man made religion, you will bear the fruit of man. If you want to bear the fruit of Jesus Christ, then join the Church that only He alone established.
 
They are entertaining their own imagination with zero basis of truth. At the expense of fragile followers. Thats whats sad. You’ll trading in the living God for some nuts imagination. Avoid all that if it distracts you.

I recently seen a fellow on you-tube promoting the message of Fatima and calling the CC evil all in one 15-minute video. How could that be possible? Geez Simple logic defeats most of these so called prophets.
 
Time for the Church now to start its own evangelization, but without teenage missionaries.
 
Irishmen10 said:
Rome is known as the city of “Seven Hills”. I personally have never been to Rome and don’t know what these “hills” look like or the locations of them. I was talking with a friend a few days ago and he mentioned to me that Rome (the city of seven hills) was the prophesy of John in Revelation 17:9.
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Pagan Rome was a terrible enemy to Christianity. But the Vatican is built on the other side of the river from the seven hills, so I don’t think that description could reasonably describe the Roman Catholic Church.

If your source is LDS, then you might want to consider an LDS view more up to date with available scholarship.

For example:
The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all.
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RebeccaJ said:
From here: “He [Joseph Smith] also declared: “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors.” (DHC, vol. 6, p. 57.)”
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[to others] DHC is the history of the church, not to be confused with D&C (Doctrine and Covenants) which is canonical LDS doctrine.

To Rebecca: Thank you. You just helped prove the very point that you were disputing, i.e. that LDS members are standing up and disagreeing with leaders’ noncannonical statements – even those that come from Joseph Smith himself:
The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all.
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The link I provided you comes from BYU, the main LDS university. I’ll bet that you would be able to find it on the LDS church site as well.

So that’s a direct repudiation of something that Joseph Smith said.

IIRC, Smith didn’t know many Catholics, so yes, it’s likely that he picked up an unfair view from his upbringing. Just as Brigham Young was indoctrinated with various racist myths about Ham that trace back to Origen, Augustine and the Talmud.
 
Cowboy_Pete said:
[to others] DHC is the history of the church, not to be confused with D&C (Doctrine and Covenants) which is canonical LDS doctrine.

To Rebecca: Thank you. You just helped prove the very point that you were disputing, i.e. that LDS members are standing up and disagreeing with leaders’ noncannonical statements – even those that come from Joseph Smith himself:

The link I provided you comes from BYU, the main LDS university. I’ll bet that you would be able to find it on the LDS church site as well.

So that’s a direct repudiation of something that Joseph Smith said.

IIRC, Smith didn’t know many Catholics, so yes, it’s likely that he picked up an unfair view from his upbringing. Just as Brigham Young was indoctrinated with various racist myths about Ham that trace back to Origen, Augustine and the Talmud.
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Do you think your Church’s official website is a good source of its teachings?
 
KathleenGee said:
Yes, I second it…Mormons, and all the others who were taught to believe our Church the great beast, the ********, pray to the Lord for strength of faith to seek truth.

We Catholics must pray very much for them. Reasoning can only go so far.

God bless everyone.
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Yes alot of prayer. To those who see the Catholic Church as anti-christ it’s a good bet that the son of perdition will come on the scene ( if he does) as a victor over her. To them he will seem to be fulfilling scripture and be the messianic figure that was waited for, the hero who destroys the false church and it’s anti-christ that has been decieving the world for centuries.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Do you think your Church’s official website is a good source of its teachings?
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A great source.

But if you really meant, do I think that everything on the official church website is a correct statement of official LDS doctrine, well, **of course not. ** The church website contains the History of the Church, which includes many theories that the church has not accepted as doctrine, and some that have been completely rejected as doctrine.

It also contains the book “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” which is a compilation of hearsay attributed to Joseph Smith, and compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, who IMO was racist. (Which is probably where the racist hearsay got attributed to JS in the first place.) You’ll also find an Ensign article on the church website discussing the horrible hearsay problems in the “teachings” book.

You want canonical doctrine, stick to Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price. Everything else might be nothing more than opinion.
 
Well Cowboy Pete, that is kind of funny, and a good way to end the evening. lol.

A great source, but not free from doctrinal error. You’re killing me.
 
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