"The shame of the catholic church" - A TV show aired in Ireland tonight.

[saveusfromhell]

It must be hard for those not in ireland to understand the sheer intensity of the Catholic Church here… The faith is life here in many ways.

The church in a very real sense created Ireland after the famine. As Rome planned and intended.

i’m starting to doubt you live in Ireland, seriously are you dreaming this stuff.

 

[Hopemercy]

Well Hopemercy I have had enough of both media slander and bleeding hearts flung in my face over this issue. We here in the United States have been patiently letting people rub our faces in this issue for over a decade and now it’s time to move on.

How dare you attack me for calling the media’s bluff.

How dare you.

If you’re going to play the criminal law card, then tell Boland’s parents that their refusal to go to the police themselves is an insult to every child who was abused there in Ireland and also demonstrates why this goes on now.

How dare you.

No need to shout, young person. Or to repeat yourself… yourself… yourself…

Your words merely reinforce what I said. A child abused say 40 years ago is now still alive and still suffering. They cannot" move on".and it is they who matter.

Many in the media care deeply and are still like us waiting to see some real humility.

How dare I? Because people matter and truth and purity matter. I am very old now and more than ever these things matter.

er… as someone else has said ( have you read the Irish reports by the way? If not please do; they are all online.) any child or parent who reported abuse was fobbed off. I know of such personally.Parents tried over and over again. There are records of this over and over again. Look at Cloyne in recent years.

The gardai were in the Church’s pocket.

If you don’t know these things then clearly you should.

I work with survivors.

 

[Hopemercy]

i’m starting to doubt you live in Ireland, seriously are you dreaming this stuff.

?? what stuff? Please explain as you puzzle me and in turn I wonder where YOU live.

if it is the history angle, look up Paul Cardinal Cullen and post famine Ireland.

If it is the part the Church has in life here, come and see our rural areas.

 

[saveusfromhell]

The gardai were in the Church’s pocket.

I work with survivors.

no wonder your view is so strange. guards not doing their job is the states fault not the church, judges failing to act again the states, politicans again the states,thats why the state had to pay out.
youalso want to blame the church for teachers abusing kids, wow

 

[Hopemercy]

no wonder your view is so strange. guards not doing their job is the states fault not the church, judges failing to act again the states, politicans again the states,thats why the state had to pay out.
youalso want to blame the church for teachers abusing kids, wow

Have you read the various reports? They state as I do very clearly indeed.

Church and state too closely intertiwned and inbred.

You need also to bone up on Irish social and educational history. The ignorance appalls me frankly.

Up to you, but i begin to understand how this whole mass happened.

Ostrich syndrome…

At that time, the Church were the teachers; period.

 

[saveusfromhell]

?? what stuff? Please explain as you puzzle me and in turn I wonder where YOU live.

if it is the history angle, look up Paul Cardinal Cullen and post famine Ireland.

If it is the part the Church has in life here, come and see our rural areas.

it’s the whole piece i quote you thats how this works

It must be hard for those not in ireland to understand the sheer intensity of the Catholic Church here… The faith is life here in many ways.

The church in a very real sense created Ireland after the famine. As Rome planned and intended.

i’m sorry but your dreaming this stuff up.yes i’m from rural ireland.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not other members. If you feel a member has violated a forum rule, please report the post using the red triangle in the upper right corner of the post. Please specify the exact rule you feel they are violating.

Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.

Everyone, online and offline, deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully. However, some posters seem to feel that clergy and religious are fair game.

If you have an issue with them, take it up in private, not on this forum or any of our forums.

You may cite something from another source, if you are not using it to further an agenda. Agenda posting is not allowed.

If we deem that you are disrespectful to our clergy and religious, you will receive an infraction or even a ban.

Proof what you write before you post.

You may not make disparaging remarks about:

• Vatican II
• Clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) of any group
• Religious (brothers, sisters, and nuns) of any order or congregation
• Lawful actions and disciiplines by the Church including the historical excommunication of the SSPX. It happened. Rome explained why it happened. End of story. Rome did not put it out there for debate by the faithful.
• Another poster or his/her ideas. You can disagree. You cannot attack,insult, ridicule or dismiss as unimportant. His opinion is as important to him as your opinion is to you.
• Parishes, pastors, civil leaders.
• Other religions – if you’re unsure how to speak in public about other faiths, look at the Pope Benedict XVI. He is fraternal, polite, and intellectual in discussing religious differences.

Avoid arguments that will lead to violations of charity. You don’t have to like what you read and others do not have to like what you post. But you must be civil toward each other and those who are not on the forum.

 

[eireannq]

I think that this is one of those things where everyone is guilty to, some degree, of something. The priests are guilty of being pedophiles. The Church clergy are guilty of covering it up. The media is guilty of pouring salt in an already open wound. And we ourselves (including me) are guilty of fuelling the fire on this forum.

The children are guilty of nothing. It seems we are forgetting that most important fact. Some people instead are focusing on protecting the individuals and the institution who abused children. Thank God that this crime was finally exposed, because if no one told, it would have continued on forever. If even one child’s life and soul is saved by this explosive exposure, it is worth it. The victims did nothing wrong.

 

[pepipop]

Not sure what point you are making.

NB the church ran almost all the schools etc in that era.

O’Brady?

My point was in reference to world wide handling of child abuse in the '70’s, not just Ireland. It was unheard of, there was never any reference in the papers/news etc… of child abuse, but you can be rest assured it was and has been going on since time began.

I recall one girl at my parish in the 70’s waiting outside the church door and was abused by a strange man - needless to say it was all hushed up, i don’t know the facts. Whether the police were brought in or not, I do not know - there was no newspaper coverage, mind you her parents would not have wished to bring shame to their daughter by doing so. One catholic male in my hearing ( I was a child at the time), said ‘she probably led him on’ or words to that effect, so the attitude to ‘child abuse’ was IMO viewed very differently in the '70’s. Children were seen and not heard or believed for that matter!

 

[Tony2255]

The children are guilty of nothing. It seems we are forgetting that most important fact. Some people instead are focusing on protecting the individuals and the institution who abused children. Thank God that this crime was finally exposed, because if no one told, it would have continued on forever. If even one child’s life and soul is saved by this explosive exposure, it is worth it. The victims did nothing wrong.

I have to disagree it was not the institution that abused children. Individuals used the institution to abuse children. I believe people are trying to defend the Catholic Church not the abusers.

Schools, Churches, community programs can implement every possible safety measure to protect children (which the Catholic Church is trying to do, as are many other organizations) and abuse will continue to happen.

These individuals will continue to populate these organizations because it allows them the greatest access to their targets. They will lie, sneek, hide, do anything to gain access.

The best thing we can do is participate and stay aware. Make sure policies and safety procedures are being followed. Play an active role in your child’s activities, restrict access.

Religious and educational systems are important building blocks to a healthy society, getting rid of them would do more harm then good. 98% of these programs work and because the crime is so horrible, that 2% ends up looking like the 98%. The foundation is solid, stay with it, and help repair the broken pieces.

 

[eireannq]

I have to disagree it was not the institution that abused children. Individuals used the institution to abuse children. I believe people are trying to defend the Catholic Church not the abusers.

Some may argue that a business is indeed responsible for the people they hire within their system. As a nurse, MY license is in jeopardy if an LPN or CNA under me is negligent and a patient gets hurt. As a mandated reporter, the law states that I can be put in jail if I do not report a crime that I know about. While the church itself did not abuse the children, the powers within had a moral responsiblity to report the abuse and remove guilty priests from ever having contact with children again. The families and the abused should not have had a gag order imposed on them. They should have been able to talk about it whenever they needed to. The church heirarchy is responsible for shuffleing perverts from parish to parish without supervision so they could re-abuse again and again and again. I do agree, however, that individuals, mainly priests, used the institution to abuse children. Innocent people lost their lives and their souls over this crime.

Schools, Churches, community programs can implement every possible safety measure to protect children (which the Catholic Church is trying to do, as are many other organizations) and abuse will continue to happen.

It is comon sense to know they should have been doing that all along. While abuse will still happen, we at least know that there will be lawsuits and media coverage now.

These individuals will continue to populate these organizations because it allows them the greatest access to their targets. They will lie, sneek, hide, do anything to gain access.

Agreed. And now we have to be even more vigilant in our awareness and protection of children.

The best thing we can do is participate and stay aware. Make sure policies and safety procedures are being followed. Play an active role in your child’s activities, restrict access.

And trust your instincts.

Religious and educational systems are important building blocks to a healthy society, getting rid of them would do more harm then good. 98% of these programs work and because the crime is so horrible, that 2% ends up looking like the 98%. The foundation is solid, stay with it, and help repair the broken pieces.

I think people would be more forgiving of the church if some did not try to defend the indefensible. There are no excuses, and it just angers people when excuses are made. If we are outraged, imagine how Jesus feels. I can’t imagine how sad he must be. Let’s try to repair the church without throwing victims under the bus, or bashing those that report abuse. Please don’t blame the victim and become outraged that priests and bishops are exposed in the media. Be outraged that children were raped.

 

[saveusfromhell]

I think people would be more forgiving of the church if some did not try to defend the indefensible. There are no excuses, and it just angers people when excuses are made. If we are outraged, imagine how Jesus feels. I can’t imagine how sad he must be. Let’s try to repair the church without throwing victims under the bus, or bashing those that report abuse. Please **don’t blame the victim and become outraged **B]that priests and bishops are exposed in the media

. Be outraged that children were raped.

it would helpif people were actually able to follow what is being said in the thread. not what they think is being posted.

i think you will find it impossible to find one person that is not sickened by what happened, but there is many with an agenda. obviously you don’t see that which is where the arguments start,

 

[pepipop]

The British Broadcasting Corporation - in case anyone missed the programme last night on BBC1, is airing it again on their other channel BB2 tonight. This IMO is overkill, the situation about paedophile Brendan Smyth and Cardinal O Brien has been brought up umpteen times over the past two years and I can only assume they have no new fodder to hit the CC with at the present time - or the SS marriage law must be getting ready to be passed soon and the catholic opinion will be seen as worthless to the GP.

I am not taking away from the seriousness of the abuse situation and the victims, however from a media viewpoint this is the equivalent of flogging an old horse to death.

 

[BListon]

The children are guilty of nothing. It seems we are forgetting that most important fact. Some people instead are focusing on protecting the individuals and the institution who abused children. Thank God that this crime was finally exposed, because if no one told, it would have continued on forever. If even one child’s life and soul is saved by this explosive exposure, it is worth it. The victims did nothing wrong.

Right… except the children of course, which is why I did not include them in the list.

 

[Slaney]

I watched this tonight (May 2nd) on BBC2 and agree with Fr Thomas Doyle, (cannon lawyer) who was on the programme, that Cardinal Brady “wasn’t a robot” referring as to why he didn’t report it to the proper authorities.
He did say he reported it to the Bishop, expecting those in higher authority to deal with it.

He (Fr Doyle )said "it was criminal " and doesn’t go with the excuse that Fr Sean Brady was just there as a note taker.
Yes it seems the shame of it all against the Church was difficult for many, but there can be** no excuse** for not protecting a child.

The Church was held with such esteem in Ireland that it would have been seen as unthinkable for anyone to accuse a priest, ( the children simply wouldn’t have been believed )

Fr Brady may have been a victim of red tape, but it doesn’t come anywhere near to what the children suffered, and more suffering could have been avoided if the civil authorities had been notified.

Is his position untenable ? probably, but that’s up to Cardinal Sean Brady to decide.

 

[Rainaldo]

I watched this tonight (May 2nd) on BBC2 and agree with Fr Thomas Doyle, (cannon lawyer) who was on the programme, that Cardinal Brady “wasn’t a robot” referring as to why he didn’t report it to the proper authorities.
He did say he reported it to the Bishop, expecting those in higher authority to deal with it.

He (Fr Doyle )said "it was criminal "

Investigate Doyle’s reputation before you rely on his opinion.

 

[Slaney]

Investigate Doyle’s reputation before you rely on his opinion.

There is good and bad in everyone, Cardinal Brady is a good man, but he unfortunately made a mistake, we all make mistakes.

I agree with Fr Doyle statement that he wasn’t a robot, not necessarily that the Cardinals actions where criminal, doesn’t mean I approve of Fr Doyles reputation, a broken clock is right twice a day…

I’m sure Cardinal Daly was/is a good man, a victim of the times I expect…

 

[feargalmac]

Why should Cardinal Brady resign? At the time he did what his bishop had asked him to do and trusted those who had authority over Brendan Smith, the Abbot of Kilnacrott, to do the right thing. Perhaps a reading of his statement would be helpful,

 

[saveusfromhell]

i’m not so sure i could agree with he shouldn’t resign. the greater good is probably served by him resigning. sort of reminds me of the end of a few good men.

youtube.com/watch?v=CQ5KZ0gh2hg

it’s early in the morning nightshift allow me some latitude

 

[trials]

The Church here is going through a lot of pain at the moment, and yes of course, awful mistakes were made that have lifelong consequences for the victims. Their pain will never go away and so it’s only natural that they will continue to vocalise it for their whole lives - like a crying baby that’s hungry. They will cry out as long as they are hurting and this is the path our Church is going to have to learn to walk along, however thorny it is. The victims are still suffering and cannot erase the abuse they endured from their memories.

Speaking from experience, I know that true healing can only come from Christ. years of therapy are no good, only God can heal this kind of hurt, but naturally, the Church is the last place they want to turn to because of what they associate it with - betrayal.

I don’t know if it will help if Cardinal Brady resigns - because for the reason explained above, no apology, no resignation, no amount of compensation will ever be enough, because it cannot erase their pain. And because these children were silenced for so long, they have to cry out now. Of course the media is using this as ammunition in their anti-Catholic agenda here, but unfortunately this is one wound which in our lifetimes will probably remain open and weeping.

The only thing I would say which the media is often slow to accept is that these stories of silenced abuse are characteristic of the whole of Irish society at the time, and not just within the Church. Abuse was not something that was talked about openly, very few were equipped to deal with it then. Now we know how to deal with abusers - criminal prosecutions - in those days, abuse of all kinds and at all levels was swept under the carpet. Not that this mitigates the Church’s responsibility in any way, but I know for a fact that there are other stories in Irish culture of abuse within families, trusted friends, etc. - and very few of those were reported either. Only in the last decade or so have we heard of fathers being brought to justice for years of child abuse for example.

God help us through this pain, help the victims, help the Church.