The shift in Catholicism (Wash Times)

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Furthermore, I think if we insist on arguing for ONE political solution as being the ONLY authentic Catholic one, rather than trying to witness ACROSS the political spectrum for a consistent ethic of life, we will be squandering a valuable opportunity.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that abortion is ALWAYS “intrinsically evil”. While it defines the “justice” of war in very narrow terms, it does NOT say that it is always “evil”.

I find your “moral equivelence” argument to be a problem. I understand what you are trying to say: Truly pro-life people are anti-life, anti deathpenalty, anti-euthanasia, AND anti-war. But the problem is, the Church allows for war and the death penalty, maybe narrowly, but morally allowed nonetheless. With abortion and euthanasia…never.

You materialy cooperated with pre-meditated murderers last November. You may argue, by voting for Bush, that I materially cooperated with murderers (soldiers of war??) who are fighting terrorists overseas. But there are distinctions here. Aren’t there??
 
She isn’t typically just going to the opposite extreme of rolling out liberal talking points, but rather engages in an often informative and entertaining dialogue with a perspective not generally available on this board. Really, there isn’t anybody else here who offers what she does. Her presence makes for a fascinating read and a better message board, then. Even though I don’t always agree with her, I consider her posts to be must reads and good conversational material in a field of much same ol, same ol
I very much agree. But since her last return, she did not engage like she used to. In fact, it was disappointing to to see her recent posts, most often short, snippy, and snide. It’s too bad.
 
Lisa N:
I don’t think it’s disagreeing that makes for an inflammatory post but the way the message is delivered. If someone starts calling other posters names or overstating the case, it’s not dialogue IMO, it’s a monologue. It doesn’t advance the discussion very far. FWIW I disagree politically with the liberals on the board but some like Philip can disagree without being disagreeable. I didn’t find that K2 could hold off on the cliches and name calling. While she does have a very interesting and very sincerely held set of convictions, sometimes it’s hard to see through the delivery to the message. JMO.

Lisa N
Admitedly, katherine employs a satirical stylistic. But, frankly, I enjoy it and take it for what it is, not as being intended for personal insult but for effect of communicating a message. Though, understandably, some people don’t like satire.

That said, I don’t think that there is any lack of calling other posters names and overstating cases on both sides of argumentation here. I won’t defend anything in particular which may have gotten katherine suspended (as I honestly have no idea what that was), but I do find her style to generally be refreshingly conversationalist rather than pseudo-academic. I also find that she often brings a wealth of experience, perspective, and information to the discussions which others don’t often have readily available. And that makes for an interesting and worthwhile read which can forward a discussion rather than just being the same old parroting of things which we’ve all heard a million times.
 
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jlw:
I very much agree. But since her last return, she did not engage like she used to. In fact, it was disappointing to to see her recent posts, most often short, snippy, and snide. It’s too bad.
She’s an older lady, no? Sometimes a little understanding goes a long way in equalizing such concerns.Mainly, I think that she just didn’t have Vern as a partner to play off of this round. 😉
 
Here is a cut from a letter from Fr. Pavone of Priest for Life in September 2004 regarding the prominance of abortion above every issue:

**To permit abortion, but then to cry out for the right to work, housing, education, health care, and so forth, is to say that these other rights belong to some people but not to all. They obviously do not belong to those who were snuffed out by abortion. **

Therefore, these rights cannot be human rights, because you have already said that not all humans have a claim on them. This trivializes those other rights and puts them on an obscure and questionable foundation.

If you permit abortion, then, on what basis do you defend the other rights? Why do we care for the poor? Because they have a right to food, clothing, and shelter. But why do they have a right to those things? Because they have a right to live. Why are we concerned about unemployment? Because people have a right to make a living. Why do they have that right? Because they have a right to live. It all comes back to that foundational right. Abortion is not the only issue, but neither is the foundation of a house the only part of a house. Take it away, however, and see how well you can build the rest.

The reason that being wrong on abortion makes it impossible to be right on other issues is that the heart and soul of every “issue” is precisely the dignity of the human person, whose right to life is not under the dominion of any other person. A person’s dignity comes from the fact that he or she is human, not that someone else decides to grant that right at some point in time. Any human right begins when human life begins; otherwise, it isn’t a human right, but rather some kind of benefit bestowed for another reason.

Now if you can take the right to life away from some humans, as abortion does to the children in the womb, then obviously you can take away from those same humans all their other human rights, because none of those other rights made such a claim upon your respect that you had to let those people live to possess it.

This is why the Pope has said that when the right to life is not protected, cries for other human rights are “false and illusory.” When one is wrong on abortion, one cannot be right on anything else.
 
So what did a Catholic voice say about Kerry’s Catholic stance on non-negotiable Catholic issues. Open the link and read for yourself!

aboutjohnkerry.com/resources/catholic.htm

Now that you have the Catholic perspective from Priest for Life (above post) and facts about Kerry, what decision do you really think was keeping in line with the Catholic Faith???
 
Well, if I were down at the Supreme Court protesting in FAVOR of keeping abortion competely unrestricted, or if I held the current state of affairs as a positive good to be perpetuated into eternity, I agree that there would be a serious problem in my position. But surely you don’t think you must agree with EVERY decision of a candidate to support him or her? More to the point, surely the context - that is, candidate A compared to candidate B, is important? I honestly don’t believe Bush will accomplish much on abortion. Why, then, should I vote for him based on abortion?

I do realize that the election is long over, but I think it’s helpful to have these discussions as I am sure we will face similar situation in the future. I don’t know who I’m voting for in 08 (we don’t even know who’s running yet, and I don’t believe in party loyalty. If Kerry had won and disappointed me, you can bet I’d be happy to vote him out in 08).

Here’s the larger point, though. Elections aren’t the only time we’re called to be responsible citizens. Bush is president until 08, and the GOP in charge of Congress until at least 06, for better or worse. We have a duty, regardless of past voting behavior, to pressure our elected representatives to live up to a consistent ethic of life. The GOP talked the pro-life talk during the election - we ought to force them to back it up. If I may borrow a sports analogy, victories are won in the off-season. The election is over and the real business of governing is now going on. Let’s make sure that “culture of life” means something more than an election gimmick.
 
Philip P:
Well, if I were down at the Supreme Court protesting in FAVOR of keeping abortion competely unrestricted, or if I held the current state of affairs as a positive good to be perpetuated into eternity, I agree that there would be a serious problem in my position. But surely you don’t think you must agree with EVERY decision of a candidate to support him or her? More to the point, surely the context - that is, candidate A compared to candidate B, is important? I honestly don’t believe Bush will accomplish much on abortion. Why, then, should I vote for him based on abortion?

I do realize that the election is long over, but I think it’s helpful to have these discussions as I am sure we will face similar situation in the future. I don’t know who I’m voting for in 08 (we don’t even know who’s running yet, and I don’t believe in party loyalty. If Kerry had won and disappointed me, you can bet I’d be happy to vote him out in 08).

Here’s the larger point, though. Elections aren’t the only time we’re called to be responsible citizens. Bush is president until 08, and the GOP in charge of Congress until at least 06, for better or worse. We have a duty, regardless of past voting behavior, to pressure our elected representatives to live up to a consistent ethic of life. The GOP talked the pro-life talk during the election - we ought to force them to back it up. If I may borrow a sports analogy, victories are won in the off-season. The election is over and the real business of governing is now going on. Let’s make sure that “culture of life” means something more than an election gimmick.
Did you vote for Kerry because of his position on the war?

I saw no real difference between him and Bush in this regard.

Do you honestly think Kerry would have done anything different given the circumstances?

Peace
 
Dear Philip P,

We certainly do not have to agree with every decision a candidate makes to support her/him. However, when it comes to decisions the candidate makes regarding 5 non-negotiable Catholic issues, her/his decisions before are likely to continue after being elected.

Here are a few quotes from Fr. Pavone of Priest for Life, an arm of the National Counsel of Catholic Bishops: “Statements of the Pope, various Vatican officials, committees and officials of the USCCB, and the entire body of US bishops, all point to abortion as the fundamental human rights issue of our day. Even Cardinal Joseph Bernardin, who during his life was a key spokesperson for the “consistent ethic of life,” pointed out repeatedly that the fundamental right is the right to life.”

Catholic Answers provides Catholic’s a voter guide catholic.com/library/voters_guide.asp Here are a couple of quotes:
“Some things always are wrong, and no one may deliberately vote in favor of them. Legislators, who have a direct vote, may not support these evils in legislation or programs. Citizens support these evils indirectly if they vote in favor of candidates who propose to advance them. Thus, to the greatest extent possible, Catholics must avoid voting for any candidate who intends to support programs or laws that are intrinsically evil. When all of the candidates endorse morally harmful policies, citizens must vote in a way that will limit the harm likely to be done.”

“Where ever candidate endorses positions contrary to non-negotiable principles, choose the candidate likely to do the least harm. If several are equal, evaluate them based on their views on other, lesser issues.”
“In some political races, each candidate takes a wrong position on one or more issues involving non-negotiable moral principles. In such a case you may vote for the candidate who takes the fewest such positions or who seems least likely to be able to advance immoral legislation, or you may choose to vote for no one.”

“Unfortunately, today many Catholics have not formed their consciences adequately regarding key moral issues. The result is that their consciences do not “sound off” at appropriate times, including on election day.”
Thus, we have a primary responsibility to progress Catholic values, especially the non-negotiable like abortion. So, we must vote for and strive to put into office the candidate who is most likely to advance these values, and we must vote against the candidate and keep out of office the candidate that would do the most harm regarding these values. The second point is important because this implies that if we are to keep a candidate out of office, we must vote against him and for the candidate who best promotes catholic values who is most likely to defeat such a candidate.

What do you think?

Love & peace,
Bob

Well, if I were down at the Supreme Court protesting in FAVOR of keeping abortion competely unrestricted, or if I held the current state of affairs as a positive good to be perpetuated into eternity, I agree that there would be a serious problem in my position. But surely you don’t think you must agree with EVERY decision of a candidate to support him or her? More to the point, surely the context - that is, candidate A compared to candidate B, is important? I honestly don’t believe Bush will accomplish much on abortion. Why, then, should I vote for him based on abortion?

I do realize that the election is long over, but I think it’s helpful to have these discussions as I am sure we will face similar situation in the future. I don’t know who I’m voting for in 08 (we don’t even know who’s running yet, and I don’t believe in party loyalty. If Kerry had won and disappointed me, you can bet I’d be happy to vote him out in 08).

Here’s the larger point, though. Elections aren’t the only time we’re called to be responsible citizens. Bush is president until 08, and the GOP in charge of Congress until at least 06, for better or worse. We have a duty, regardless of past voting behavior, to pressure our elected representatives to live up to a consistent ethic of life. The GOP talked the pro-life talk during the election - we ought to force them to back it up. If I may borrow a sports analogy, victories are won in the off-season. The election is over and the real business of governing is now going on. Let’s make sure that “culture of life” means something more than an election gimmick.
 
I honestly don’t believe Bush will accomplish much on abortion. Why, then, should I vote for him based on abortion?
Good Lord , Philip.

Would Kerry or Gore signed a Partial Birth Abortion Ban?? Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore cut off contraception money to the UN. Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore nominated pro-life or pro-death judges?? Wild guess??

Would Kerry or Gore said adamantly that NO public funds would go to pay for abortions??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to ANY right-to-life causes??

Would Kerry or Gore have disallowed future PUBLIC funding to destroy embryos for research purposes??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to Terri Schiavo??
 
Planned Parenthood Founded Institute Admits Abortion Rates Down Under Bush Administration

WASHINGTON, May 31, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) has published a new report which demonstrates that, contrary to several claims made in the last year, abortion rates in the US have continued their decline under the Bush administration. The AGI was founded in honour of a former Planned Parenthood president and therefore has no personal interest in proving Bush’s pro-life policies to be successful.

lifesite.net/ldn/2005/may/05053101.html
 
As I understood it Planned Parenthood (who pushed the pro-abortion agenda) was against Bush and strongly support Kerry for the 2004 elections. Am I wrong here?

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
 
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trailblazer:
As I understood it Planned Parenthood (who pushed the pro-abortion agenda) was against Bush and strongly support Kerry for the 2004 elections. Am I wrong here?

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
You are right on the money. PP made a big deal that they had never previously endorsed a candidate (and makes me wonder about their exempt status) But because they found Bush such a threat, they threw in their lot with Kerry as consistently voting for abortion.

Lisa N
 
Philip P:
I honestly don’t believe Bush will accomplish much on abortion. Why, then, should I vote for him based on abortion?
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jlw:
Good Lord , Philip.

Would Kerry or Gore signed a Partial Birth Abortion Ban?? Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore cut off contraception money to the UN. Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore nominated pro-life or pro-death judges?? Wild guess??

Would Kerry or Gore said adamantly that NO public funds would go to pay for abortions??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to ANY right-to-life causes??

Would Kerry or Gore have disallowed future PUBLIC funding to destroy embryos for research purposes??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to Terri Schiavo??
Phillip’s defeatist attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy. “I won’t support the pro-life candidate, because he won’t end abortion (actually because I hate Republicans).” But how will the pro-life candidate end abortion without strong political support? How will both parties ever get the message that Catholics mean business if half of us keep voting for baby killers? It’s shameful. How do these traitors sleep at night?
 
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jlw:
Good Lord , Philip.

Would Kerry or Gore signed a Partial Birth Abortion Ban?? Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore cut off contraception money to the UN. Nope.

Would Kerry or Gore nominated pro-life or pro-death judges?? Wild guess??

Would Kerry or Gore said adamantly that NO public funds would go to pay for abortions??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to ANY right-to-life causes??

Would Kerry or Gore have disallowed future PUBLIC funding to destroy embryos for research purposes??

Would Kerry or Gore have lent his voice to Terri Schiavo??
My position has never been that Kerry was a BETTER anti-abortion candidate than Bush, but rather than NEITHER candidate seemed to offer much on this issue. For me, abortion was essentially a wash in 04. On the partial birth abortion ban, I’m glad it passed, but we’ll have to wait and see if it really gets significant results. Also, I think failure at the national level would not have ruled out action on the state level (especially since Webster), so it’s not like a Kerry or Gore presidency would have made an advance here impossible. Judges, well we’ve been discussing this on another thread, but for everyone else reading, I just don’t have a great deal of confidence in anyone’s ability to predict the actions of a judge. Embryo research…um, taken a look at the Republican House lately? I don’t think Bush can stop it there, and he definitely can’t at the state level.

Essentially, though, what it comes down to for me is that Bush never really connected abortion to a wider ethic of life, despite his use of JPII’s “culture of life” rhetoric. How can you claim to defend the most vulnerable, yet push budgets that put tax cuts before services target at society’s poor and vulnerable (especially when you’re fighting a long and expensive war. On fiscal principles alone I couldn’t support Bush).

We’ll see what 08 brings. Between now and then, though, we ought to be agitating for a Consistent Ethic of Life from all our candidates, regardless of party.
 
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miguel:
Phillip’s defeatist attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy. “I won’t support the pro-life candidate, because he won’t end abortion (actually because I hate Republicans).” But how will the pro-life candidate end abortion without strong political support? How will both parties ever get the message that Catholics mean business if half of us keep voting for baby killers? It’s shameful. How do these traitors sleep at night?
There’s more to politics than elections. Parties will get the message of a consistent ethic of life when public opinion gives it to them. Discussions such as these help (I’m sure Karl Rove has people looking through sites like these, as should teh Dems if they’re smart). Statements emphasizing a consistent commitment to the full spectrum of life from the hierarchy help (like it or hate it, Burke and Chaput caught a lot of attention). And you know what, it’s not all gloom and doom - there has been a continuing move toward more restrictions on abortion, especially at the state level. Until we as a society turn away from killing as a solution, though, whether that’s killing prisoners, babies, or old people, and whether through active killing or indifference, we can’t expect a breakthrough on abortion. Politics is only one aspect of the problem; we need to be active in the realm of public morality and culture as well.
 
If there is a Pro-life Democrate running for President in '08 I will vote for him.

Peace
 
Likewise, if their is a pro-abortion pilitician running for office, i’ll vote against her/him. This is the Catholic duty.
 
Philip P:
There’s more to politics than elections. Parties will get the message of a consistent ethic of life when public opinion gives it to them.
Parties will get the message on baby killing when Catholics start treating it with a sense of urgency and voting with a unified voice. If we don’t take the lead on this, who else will? After all, we have the words of eternal life. How many more years of 1.5 million dead babies are we willing to tolerate?
Philip P:
Discussions such as these help (I’m sure Karl Rove has people looking through sites like these, as should the Dems if they’re smart). Statements emphasizing a consistent commitment to the full spectrum of life from the hierarchy help (like it or hate it, Burke and Chaput caught a lot of attention). And you know what, it’s not all gloom and doom - there has been a continuing move toward more restrictions on abortion, especially at the state level. Until we as a society turn away from killing as a solution, though, whether that’s killing prisoners, babies, or old people, and whether through active killing or indifference, we can’t expect a breakthrough on abortion. Politics is only one aspect of the problem; we need to be active in the realm of public morality and culture as well.
This kind of talk keeps us divided by taking the focus off priorities. But to really get anything done, we need leadership, we need to set priorities, and we need to take action. What kind of a moral and cultural message are we as Catholics sending when half of us continue to vote for baby killers with little correction from our shepherds? I find this whole situation thoroughly disgusting.
 
Philip P:
My position has never been that Kerry was a BETTER anti-abortion candidate than Bush, but rather than NEITHER candidate seemed to offer much on this issue. For me, abortion was essentially a wash in 04. On the partial birth abortion ban, I’m glad it passed, but we’ll have to wait and see if it really gets significant results. Also, I think failure at the national level would not have ruled out action on the state level (especially since Webster), so it’s not like a Kerry or Gore presidency would have made an advance here impossible. Judges, well we’ve been discussing this on another thread, but for everyone else reading, I just don’t have a great deal of confidence in anyone’s ability to predict the actions of a judge. Embryo research…um, taken a look at the Republican House lately? I don’t think Bush can stop it there, and he definitely can’t at the state level.

Essentially, though, what it comes down to for me is that Bush never really connected abortion to a wider ethic of life, despite his use of JPII’s “culture of life” rhetoric. How can you claim to defend the most vulnerable, yet push budgets that put tax cuts before services target at society’s poor and vulnerable (especially when you’re fighting a long and expensive war. On fiscal principles alone I couldn’t support Bush).

We’ll see what 08 brings. Between now and then, though, we ought to be agitating for a Consistent Ethic of Life from all our candidates, regardless of party.
BONEHEADED!!

Forgive me, Philip. “Wider ethic of life”???

I’m praying for you man, because you are deluding yourself. Abortions should go completely unchecked, and working FAMILIES (Of which, you don’t have?) should keep less of what they EARN for their WORK??? Sounds compassionate to me. :confused:

Don’t give me “tax cuts for the rich” garbage either. Alot of “rich” people EMPLOY working families. A post-9/11 economy of consumer inactivity folded quite a few “rich” employers who didn’t have the money to keep the doors open AND keep all their employees.

This is getting a little off-topic, so unless you have something you want to say in reply, we can get back to the original subject.
 
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