The sin of Adam and Eve affected all of creation?

[simpleas]

Think my question is this :

How do we understand that by Adam and Eve’s sin, the whole of the world was affected?

But by the time I write what I’m thinking there will probably by more questions!!

I’m considering that as God created the universe, the earth, the animal kingdom, and then A&E. I assume God made the animals from the earth, as did he make A&E.

He made A&E unique as he made them in his image and likeness.

By committing an offence to God and disobeying his command to not eat of the tree, they do and gain knowledge of Good and Evil.
They fall from grace, as they are made in Gods image.
The animal kingdom is not made in Gods image, but is a part of what God made, as with the earth and the universe.

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected?

The animals and humans were not meant to die, through sin animals and humans die.
But where does the earth being affected come into it? When it’s noted that work is a burden now, that before A&E didn’t have to work hard for food and water, does it mean just that, and not that the earth would naturally have at the time before sin, been created with earthquakes, volcano’s etc. Considering what we know now about our planet, how natural disasters (unfortunately kill people and animals) they also formed alot of places in our world which we consider to be beautiful.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

 

[theCrow]

Perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is not to be taken LITERALLY.

Thus that would explain many things.

 

[davidv]

Perhaps the story of Adam and Eve is not to be taken LITERALLY.

Thus that would explain many things.

A better perhaps is to understand the literal meaning as the original author intended it to mean.

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two *senses *of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

 

[Havard]

Think my question is this :

How do we understand that by Adam and Eve’s sin, the whole of the world was affected?

But by the time I write what I’m thinking there will probably by more questions!!

I’m considering that as God created the universe, the earth, the animal kingdom, and then A&E. I assume God made the animals from the earth, as did he make A&E.

He made A&E unique as he made them in his image and likeness.

By committing an offence to God and disobeying his command to not eat of the tree, they do and gain knowledge of Good and Evil.
They fall from grace, as they are made in Gods image.
The animal kingdom is not made in Gods image, but is a part of what God made, as with the earth and the universe.

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected?

The animals and humans were not meant to die, through sin animals and humans die.
But where does the earth being affected come into it? When it’s noted that work is a burden now, that before A&E didn’t have to work hard for food and water, does it mean just that, and not that the earth would naturally have at the time before sin, been created with earthquakes, volcano’s etc. Considering what we know now about our planet, how natural disasters (unfortunately kill people and animals) they also formed alot of places in our world which we consider to be beautiful.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

I think this seems to answer your question in the affirmative:

CCC §408: “The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”. This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.”

A better perhaps is to understand the literal meaning as the original author intended it to mean.

To that, I’d add:

CCC §390: “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.”

 

[littlestsouls2]

I think the following words of Our Lord from the Revelations of St. Bridget are quite relevant. I don’t presume to judge their authenticity; but several Popes and many saints have declared them to be worthy of pious belief.

“You ask why animals suffer infirmities. This is because there exists a disorder in them as in the rest of creation. I am the maker of every nature and have given to each its own temperament and order in which each one moves and lives. However, after man, for whose sake all things were made, set himself against his lover, that is, against me his God, then disorder entered all the rest of creation, and all the things that should have been afraid of man began to set themselves against him and oppose him. Because of this defective disorder many troubles and difficulties befall humankind as well as animals.

Besides, sometimes animals also suffer because of their own natural immoderation or as a curb to their ferocity, or as a cleansing of nature itself, or sometimes because of human sins in order that human beings, who have a greater use of reason, might consider how much punishment they deserve, when the creatures they love are plagued and taken away. But if human sins did not demand it, animals, which are under human charge, would not suffer in so singular a manner.

But not even they suffer without great justice. Their suffering occurs either to put a quicker end to their lives and lessen their wretched toils that consume their strength or on account of a change in seasons or out of human carelessness during the process of work. People should therefore fear me, their God, above all things, and treat my creatures and animals more mildly, having mercy on them for the sake of me, their Creator. I, God, accordingly decreed the Sabbath rest, because I care for all my creation…

As to why a child carries the sins of his father, I answer: Can anything clean come from that which is unclean? When he lost the beauty of innocence due to disobedience, the first man was thrown out of the paradise of joy and was enveloped in unclean things. There is no one to be found who can regain this innocence by himself. For this reason, I, merciful God, appeared in the flesh and instituted baptism, by means of which a child is freed from perverse uncleanness and sin."

Bl. Anna Maria Taigi showed a great tenderness towards animals, saying: “They have their Paradise on earth.”

 

[chimo]

Think my question is this :

How do we understand that by Adam and Eve’s sin, the whole of the world was affected?

But by the time I write what I’m thinking there will probably by more questions!!

I’m considering that as God created the universe, the earth, the animal kingdom, and then A&E. I assume God made the animals from the earth, as did he make A&E.

He made A&E unique as he made them in his image and likeness.

By committing an offence to God and disobeying his command to not eat of the tree, they do and gain knowledge of Good and Evil.
They fall from grace, as they are made in Gods image.
The animal kingdom is not made in Gods image, but is a part of what God made, as with the earth and the universe.

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected?

The animals and humans were not meant to die, through sin animals and humans die.
But where does the earth being affected come into it? When it’s noted that work is a burden now, that before A&E didn’t have to work hard for food and water, does it mean just that, and not that the earth would naturally have at the time before sin, been created with earthquakes, volcano’s etc. Considering what we know now about our planet, how natural disasters (unfortunately kill people and animals) they also formed alot of places in our world which we consider to be beautiful.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

I do not think one needs to explore too much on what Adam and Eve had done. Their sin did bring certain changes to the rest of humanity but I would not speculate this with the animal kingdom. For instance we know that dinosaurs had existed before man was created because of the evidence that was left behind. These dinosaurs had eventually died off. We must look at the story of Adam and Eve and how it applies only to us. Forget about the rest because it was the spiritual nature of humanity that only concerns our own relationship with God. Adam and Eve lived in a spiritual paradise but after they had sinned this paradise within them was no longer there at least in the way they had started. The earth had volcanoes and earthquakes long before the creation of our first parents. How do you think we got these continents, mountains and valleys from? It was certain that God used stars, asteroids and meteors to make our earth. No there was great changes that God allowed from the very beginning to create this earth. Look at the moon and its many craters. It was certain that our earth was also bombarded the same as the moon. Remember that for Adam and Eve God had put them into a special garden first. When Adam and Eve sinned, there was a change in them that had brought physical death and suffering to them as to the rest of humanity. There was no need for them to stay within this spiritual garden since the Lord will help restore it to them as He would for the rest of humanity by the sending forth of His Son.

 

[simpleas]

I do not think one needs to explore too much on what Adam and Eve had done. Their sin did bring certain changes to the rest of humanity but I would not speculate this with the animal kingdom. For instance we know that dinosaurs had existed before man was created because of the evidence that was left behind. These dinosaurs had eventually died off. We must look at the story of Adam and Eve and how it applies only to us. Forget about the rest because it was the spiritual nature of humanity that only concerns our own relationship with God. Adam and Eve lived in a spiritual paradise but after they had sinned this paradise within them was no longer there at least in the way they had started. The earth had volcanoes and earthquakes long before the creation of our first parents. How do you think we got these continents, mountains and valleys from? It was certain that God used stars, asteroids and meteors to make our earth. No there was great changes that God allowed from the very beginning to create this earth. Look at the moon and its many craters. It was certain that our earth was also bombarded the same as the moon. Remember that for Adam and Eve God had put them into a special garden first. When Adam and Eve sinned, there was a change in them that had brought physical death and suffering to them as to the rest of humanity. There was no need for them to stay within this spiritual garden since the Lord will help restore it to them as He would for the rest of humanity by the sending forth of His Son.

Thanks.

The garden being a spiritual place, a “paradise” of sorts while A&E were innocent, the garden was not the world, but a special place. So when they were no longer innocent, they are put out of the garden, and into the hostile, dangerous earth we have known.

The animals were in the garden also, and I would think at peace with A&E.

As I can understand the sin of the two humans affecting their nature, I don’t see how it would affect the animals. Unless, the animals being put out of the garden also, some how changed their nature too, and that is how disharmony started among animals with animals and with humans.

 

[chimo]

Thanks.

The garden being a spiritual place, a “paradise” of sorts while A&E were innocent, the garden was not the world, but a special place. So when they were no longer innocent, they are put out of the garden, and into the hostile, dangerous earth we have known.

The animals were in the garden also, and I would think at peace with A&E.

As I can understand the sin of the two humans affecting their nature, I don’t see how it would affect the animals. Unless, the animals being put out of the garden also, some how changed their nature too, and that is how disharmony started among animals with animals and with humans.

Perhaps the animals had left Adam and Eve alone meaning there was no direct confrontation with them. Yet I cannot speculate that all animals were vegetarians since some of the animals had bigger teeth than others. God must have tended for some animals to be vegetarians while others were not. I prefer not to speculate about the animals but more on the “spiritual garden” which can occur within the hearts of every person. God can build this “garden of Eden” in us, within each heart of every human being. The “garden of Eden” is to be found within our hearts where the Lord Jesus can make His home in us. The Lord Jesus is making another “garden of Eden” as the Holy Spirit is establishing our hearts to come to know of the love which we can receive from God.

 

[Gold_Star]

The question revolves around the meaning of death. The natural idea of death is the separation of body and soul. Animals have a spirit of the species animating them but no individual soul. But beyond the first or physical death is the second death, the death of the soul. Eze. 18:4, 20 “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” See also Rev.20:6, 20:14, and 21:8. The greater emphasis in the Bible as a spiritual book has always been on the death of the soul rather than the death of the body.

In Gen 2:7 “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” So, the original sin involved the death of the soul, which was never true of the animals. Death in its full Biblical sense never pertained to animals. They have been physically dying from the time they were created. Eternal life through the tree of life was for the human soul primarily and the body secondarily. Those who believe animals never physically died before original sin happened are in error.

 

[aragonjohn1]

Thanks.

The garden being a spiritual place, a “paradise” of sorts while A&E were innocent, the garden was not the world, but a special place. So when they were no longer innocent, they are put out of the garden, and into the hostile, dangerous earth we have known.

The animals were in the garden also, and I would think at peace with A&E.

As I can understand the sin of the two humans affecting their nature, I don’t see how it would affect the animals. Unless, the animals being put out of the garden also, some how changed their nature too, and that is how disharmony started among animals with animals and with humans.

nature does not have Harmony because the animals and creaturettes lose their more than harmony ( thank you ) they want and sometimnes desire what and where they did find.

beautifull

God Bless of You

• john

 

[aragonjohn1]

A better perhaps is to understand the literal meaning as the original author intended it to mean.

interpersonal rock Got soul.

 

[aragonjohn1]

A better perhaps is to understand the literal meaning as the original author intended it to mean.

interpersonal rock’s Got soul.

 

[simpleas]

nature does not have Harmony because the animals and creaturettes lose their more than harmony ( thank you ) they want and sometimnes desire what and where they did find.

beautifull

God Bless of You

• john

So if nature doesn’t have harmony, that means the animals were dangerous in the garden before the fall. That the garden A&E lived in before sin was just as the world is now.
The animals could have harmed A&E, the garden could have been just as dangerous, hostile. But I was thinking it was a garden of peace, safety, harmony with the animals etc.

 

[Aunt_Raven]

It was said by some medieval philosopher I forget that Man is “Crown of Creation” and also “Soul of the Earth.”

If the head is stricken, the whole body is sick. It seems only logical that if Man, the sentient mind of the world, makes a choice to disobey the creator, the world in all its parts must logically suffer with him. That means the animals and the plants, and the whole of the earth, which was made for Man, also partook of his disobedience, and the divine order of nature was disturbed so that It “brought forth thistles and thorns”, and death as we know it became a fearful reality. Man had been one in harmony with nature before the fall; and now all nature shares man’s disharmony with God’s will until there is a new heavens and a new earth at the Parousia.

Sometimes we understand a concept better through poetry than science; this question is one of those instances.

I do note that when a great saint attains union with God even in this life, s/he demonstrates the recovery of primal innocence with relation to nature around him-- vide St Francis taming the wolf of Gobbio; his preaching the birds, and the fish. Hermit St Seraphim of Sarov had as a companion a wild bear who loved him. St Ana Maria Taigi had compassion for sick or injured animals which she healed with a touch of her hand.
In saints like these we get glimpses of Paradise restored by individual holiness of saints who mirror the grace of Christ restoring divine order even in this life.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

The earth is an ecological system. There is every reason to suppose this has always been the case. Animals exist solely in time. They live, die and surrender themselves to feed each other.

Although they had not commited themselves to God, Adam and Eve were in an original state of holiness.
If you have ever been around a holy person, you will know that there is a sense of peace about them, like St. Francis.
So, in their presence (reflecting the original connection between man and God), there was no want and creation was in harmony.
Also, the beingness maintained by God in time, was that source of their eternal life.
Our being both spirit and matter, had we chosen to live in a loving filial relationship with God, we would have brought the universe (of which we are a part and expression) itself into that same communion. As it is, we fell, and the world fell.

In Christ, who in the Eucharist embraces matter itself, this fallen world is brought into God’s love.
The entire universe rejoices through the Word, in praise of our Creator.

 

[RCCB]

Think my question is this :

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

In spite of catholic doctrine, I would agree wholly with this sentiment. It is difficult to look at the state of what is called ‘civilization’ and believe that there is an active God involved. We are self evidently incompetent stewards of the natural order. And this suggest a corruption in our ethical perception that has yet to be corrected by evolution or God. And if that is indeed the case, we can hardly consider ourselves in the image and likeness of our creator, but to the contrary.

Human nature remains an unfinished entity. Unable to realize our highest spiritual aspirations in spite of two thousand years of a ‘Christian’ presence. Speaking as an ex-catholic, but one who hasn’t given up on the potential for and of God, I must presume that His plan for our species remains unfulfilled.

The only question I have is when the process of completion with begin. Maybe that is what the second coming is for?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Speaking as an ex-catholic, but one who hasn’t given up on the potential for and of God, I must presume that His plan for our species remains unfulfilled. The only question I have is when the process of completion with begin. Maybe that is what the second coming is for?

Does this imply that you are waiting for the second coming for you to personally know God. I’m not sure but it may then be too late. Just sayin’.

 

[Frankenfurter]

I had the same question:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=865816

The answer is clearly yes. But few folks seem understand this.

 

[simpleas]

I had the same question:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=865816

The answer is clearly yes. But few folks seem understand this.

Thanks for the link

I was just pondering on that, we know God created man in his image and man alone, and in doing so, mans fall could not have caused a wounded effect on other creatures, because they are not spiritual like man. But if man as I think is, is connected to all of the universe, earth, the planets, creatures etc, then when he fell, because he was fully connected with God and everything, all was wounded. (apart from God that is).

Anyway, its an interesting thought.

 

[Achilles6129]

Think my question is this :

How do we understand that by Adam and Eve’s sin, the whole of the world was affected?

But by the time I write what I’m thinking there will probably by more questions!!

I’m considering that as God created the universe, the earth, the animal kingdom, and then A&E. I assume God made the animals from the earth, as did he make A&E.

He made A&E unique as he made them in his image and likeness.

By committing an offence to God and disobeying his command to not eat of the tree, they do and gain knowledge of Good and Evil.
They fall from grace, as they are made in Gods image.
The animal kingdom is not made in Gods image, but is a part of what God made, as with the earth and the universe.

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected?

The animals and humans were not meant to die, through sin animals and humans die.
But where does the earth being affected come into it? When it’s noted that work is a burden now, that before A&E didn’t have to work hard for food and water, does it mean just that, and not that the earth would naturally have at the time before sin, been created with earthquakes, volcano’s etc. Considering what we know now about our planet, how natural disasters (unfortunately kill people and animals) they also formed alot of places in our world which we consider to be beautiful.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

Outstanding question. I think you’ve hit upon something that’s very important: theology has overlooked the magnitude of the sin committed by Adam/Eve. I personally believe that they destroyed the entire cosmos itself. I think that modern Christianity has a very watered-down interpretation of what happened at the tree of the knowledge of good/evil.

What is more interesting, in my opinion, is that human beings obviously inherit this nature at conception. We could ask if this is in fact just or not.