The sin of Adam and Eve affected all of creation?

[Aloysium]

Aloysium, I know you are just speculating . . . why would the God of love punish an act of love from his own created image? . . . So did Adam truly love his Eve as you seem to say, because if he did, he would have continued to state that, rather than put blame onto her?

If you are married, it hasn’t been for very long. You may find that you end up hating your spouse. A commitment to God, to one’s word and the person you married will be the reason for not only maintaining, but improving the relationship. Love is demonstrated in those acts that will bring you back together. Having overcome the worst imaginable, the couple will be rewarded with a love far deeper than what existed before.

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Adam could have eaten the apple because:

• He was convinced as was Eve by the serpent.
• He and Eve were of one mind.
• He knew that Eve would be taken from him, and he could not let her go.
• for other motivations.

The attraction of the fruit is the same as the attraction of Eve. He wanted to maintain union with her.

Gen 2:23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”

I understand the Greeks had four words for love:

• storge, relating to family relations
• philia, or friendship
• eros, a passionate spiritual or physical desire for the beloved, seen as beautiful
• agape, a giving of oneself without ulterior motives
  We also read of charity:
• a love of God above all things, from which arises a love of our neighbor as ourselves.

Everything God creates is good. It is good because of God’s love. If we take God out of the picture, everything becomes dross.

Out of everything that is good, God wills certain things that are good for us. There are intrinsically good things that are bad for us.

Whatever Adam’s motivations, once the relationship with God was damaged, once we failed to reciprocate God’s love, the capacity to love was diminished within us.

Gen 3:12-16 The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.” 1Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” . . . your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Created as self-and-other, in love, man now finds himself in conflict with the other, whom we no longer know and whom we fear, aware that we are other to his self.
Not loving and not trusting we control , dominate and blame the other.

 

[simpleas]

If you are married, it hasn’t been for very long. You may find that you end up hating your spouse. A commitment to God, to one’s word and the person you married will be the reason for not only maintaining, but improving the relationship. Love is demonstrated in those acts that will bring you back together. Having overcome the worst imaginable, the couple will be rewarded with a love far deeper than what existed before.

Adam could have eaten the apple because:

• He was convinced as was Eve by the serpent.
• He and Eve were of one mind.
• He knew that Eve would be taken from him, and he could not let her go.
• for other motivations.

The attraction of the fruit is the same as the attraction of Eve. He wanted to maintain union with her.

I understand the Greeks had four words for love:

• storge, relating to family relations
• philia, or friendship
• eros, a passionate spiritual or physical desire for the beloved, seen as beautiful
• agape, a giving of oneself without ulterior motives
  We also read of charity:
• a love of God above all things, from which arises a love of our neighbor as ourselves.

Everything God creates is good. It is good because of God’s love. If we take God out of the picture, everything becomes dross.

Out of everything that is good, God wills certain things that are good for us. There are intrinsically good things that are bad for us.

Whatever Adam’s motivations, once the relationship with God was damaged, once we failed to reciprocate God’s love, the capacity to love was diminished within us.

Created as self-and-other, in love, man now finds himself in conflict with the other, whom we no longer know and whom we fear, aware that we are other to his self.
Not loving and not trusting we control , dominate and blame the other.

To me this is quite a bizarre answer, forgive me, I don’t really understand how it can be that before O.S Adam loved his Eve, and then after disobeying God, he blames her. Love is very strong, not everyone who marries finds that they hate their spouse? That they need to work to improve their relationship, many people find love, commitment, God from the moment they meet. I don’t think any relationship is perfect, but love of another would be strong until death for some people, and they wouldn’t blame each other when they made a wrong choice.

But what I was getting at was how a loving God would punish an act of love? But not only for the creature he made in his image, but also for the whole of creation too.

 

[Aloysium]

God is Love.

 

[simpleas]

God is Love.

That I do not doubt.

 

[grannymh]

Aloysium, I know you are just speculating here, but you say Adam loved Eve more than God, and so took the fruit to so that he would not be separated from Eve. Both first parents (and us of course) are made in the image and likeness of God. So in loving Eve, Adam loved God.
If his love of Eve was pure and strong, that he broke the rule in order to be with her, why would the God of love punish an act of love from his own created image?

Then you say it went sour because Adam blamed Eve, without true love it always does. So did Adam truly love his Eve as you seem to say, because if he did, he would have continued to state that, rather than put blame onto her?

Let’s step back from speculations for a moment.

Original Sin is between Adam and God. Adam loving Eve is an action between two humans; therefore, it is not part of Adam’s Original Sin. Original Sin occurred because Adam loved himself more than God; therefore, in Original Sin, he placed himself above God’s commandment and against the requirements of his creature status.

Obviously, Adam could sin against Eve; but, again it is an action between two humans which goes against God’s commandments. Recall that Adam and Eve were subject to the moral norms that govern the use of their human freedom. Over and above that, Adam’s position as the first human being is the reason that his Original Sin is catastrophic.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Original Sin is between Adam and God. Adam loving Eve is an action between two humans; therefore, it is not part of Adam’s Original Sin. Original Sin occurred because Adam loved himself more than God; therefore, in Original Sin, he placed himself above God’s commandment and against the requirements of his creature status. . .

My original post provided an interpretation of Genesis that spoke of a possible motivation that, expanded, might serve to understand how things go wrong in human relations (sin) and what is the cure (Jesus).
It was primarily meant to illustrate how love is central to existence.

My understanding of the reality of our original parents, includes their existence as individual human beings and as humanity itself.
As a person, Adam was a lot smarter than I, and in that interval between Eve offering the fruit and his eating it, more than I can imagine, went through his mind.
In Adam, as mankind, one thought that we considered and decided against was the reality of Christ.
We would not submit ourselves to the loving will of God. We failed to trust God and refused not only to to acknowledge our total dependency on Him, but refused to return His love outright.

God is love; without Him, we have nothing of true value.
Love enables us to unite with the beloved, that which is ultimately created by and loved by God.

In the Garden, we were given everything we needed. In disobeying God, in our refusal to return to Him the love he had given us, we damaged our relationship.
Without God, without love, whatever fame and success we achieve, whatever power we may wield, all earthly pleasures turn out to be empty.
In Eden, as did the prodigal son, we spent what God had given us on ourselves and were left spiritually impoverished.
All that was needed was to refuse the fruit, to thereby acknowledge God’s will and give back, in love, what was not even ours, His rightful ownership of the friuit of the tree.

Like the servant who buried his talent, love given to us and not returned to its Source, where it is replenished many-fold times, is taken away from us.

And that is where we were, but through the sacrifice of the Lamb, we are freed from sin and live in the hope of eternal life in God.

 

[Achilles6129]

God is Love.

That I do not doubt.

And what, exactly, is love?

Clearly, the Biblical definition of “love” is not something that human nature would recognize as “love.” So when we say that God is love, we must recognize that this is something totally foreign to human nature.

 

[simpleas]

Let’s step back from speculations for a moment.

Original Sin is between Adam and God. Adam loving Eve is an action between two humans; therefore, it is not part of Adam’s Original Sin. Original Sin occurred because Adam loved himself more than God; therefore, in Original Sin, he placed himself above God’s commandment and against the requirements of his creature status.

Obviously, Adam could sin against Eve; but, again it is an action between two humans which goes against God’s commandments. Recall that Adam and Eve were subject to the moral norms that govern the use of their human freedom. Over and above that, Adam’s position as the first human being is the reason that his Original Sin is catastrophic.

Yes that catastrophic that it not only broke union with the divine, but it affected the whole of creation.

I see it as Adam’s sin, not that he took the fruit from Eve because he loved her more than God, he listened to the voice of his wife. I believe Eve was thought of as the worst sinner of the two in some writings.

Anyway, we believe God is love, only in our human way can we understand what love is or should be. So if God saw Adam’s love for his Eve even in the act of disobedience he would not have punished them and the whole of creation for them wanting to be together…

 

[simpleas]

My original post provided an interpretation of Genesis that spoke of a possible motivation that, expanded, might serve to understand how things go wrong in human relations (sin) and what is the cure (Jesus).
It was primarily meant to illustrate how love is central to existence.

My understanding of the reality of our original parents, includes their existence as individual human beings and as humanity itself.
As a person, Adam was a lot smarter than I, and in that interval between Eve offering the fruit and his eating it, more than I can imagine, went through his mind.
In Adam, as mankind, one thought that we considered and decided against was the reality of Christ.
We would not submit ourselves to the loving will of God. We failed to trust God and refused not only to to acknowledge our total dependency on Him, but refused to return His love outright.

God is love; without Him, we have nothing of true value.
Love enables us to unite with the beloved, that which is ultimately created by and loved by God.

In the Garden, we were given everything we needed. In disobeying God, in our refusal to return to Him the love he had given us, we damaged our relationship.
Without God, without love, whatever fame and success we achieve, whatever power we may wield, all earthly pleasures turn out to be empty.
In Eden, as did the prodigal son, we spent what God had given us on ourselves and were left spiritually impoverished.
All that was needed was to refuse the fruit, to thereby acknowledge God’s will and give back, in love, what was not even ours, His rightful ownership of the friuit of the tree.

Like the servant who buried his talent, love given to us and not returned to its Source, where it is replenished many-fold times, is taken away from us.

And that is where we were, but through the sacrifice of the Lamb, we are freed from sin and live in the hope of eternal life in God.

So did they make the choice together? As Man and wife in grace, before any negative feelings or thoughts about one another ever existed, they were more than capable of seeing what eating from the tree would do to their relationship with the divine and all of creation.
Neither one would have gone behind the others back and listened to satan, because doubt, jealously etc wasn’t part of their “make up”.
Seems they made the decision together in order to experience what the snake had proposed to them.

I’m starting to think that Adam and Eve did not stop loving God, they made what was always going to be, the human mistake of thinking they could “go it alone” and have the knowledge that was offered.

By the way, I don’t think God ever leaves us, we just need to be able to find him, amongest the crazy, noisy, selfish race we belong to.

 

[simpleas]

And what, exactly, is love?

Clearly, the Biblical definition of “love” is not something that human nature would recognize as “love.” So when we say that God is love, we must recognize that this is something totally foreign to human nature.

God created us, so he would be the one that understands what way we little humans love each other.

People describe God’s love in different ways, I can only understand the way I have known God’s love. It may well be very different from God’s actual love, but I think not, as we were made in his image and likeness, yet we can never know him fully.

 

[onenow1]

You’re welcome to a faith based upon a theological ‘maybe’ that isn’t good enough for me. I’m sure God can do better!

So you want God to do better ? I did not know you were His advisor.

God Bless.

 

[Achilles6129]

God created us, so he would be the one that understands what way we little humans love each other.

People describe God’s love in different ways, I can only understand the way I have known God’s love. It may well be very different from God’s actual love, but I think not, as we were made in his image and likeness, yet we can never know him fully.

The point I was making was that the true definition of love would be shown by God’s statements/actions in Scripture and also by reality.

 

[Ion]

The church allows for a literal interpretation of the Genesis, for example one can believe that a day of creation was literally a day.

 

[simpleas]

The point I was making was that the true definition of love would be shown by God’s statements/actions in Scripture and also by reality.

Yes and you also said God’s love was foreign to human nature.

Some of what is written in the O.T isn’t like the God we know in the N.T. God never changes, his love remains the same, but the way we interpret that love has changed through out the ages.

 

[RCCB]

The point I was making was that the true definition of love would be shown by God’s statements/actions in Scripture and also by reality.

The question is have we understood correctly the nature of Love? Does human nature even come equipped with such understanding? Probably not. There is certainly as much contention and confusion over that idea as there is over the nature of God. And religious tradition would appear part of the problem rather that the source of any secure understanding. The current debates between ‘gay’ and ‘strait’ love aptly demonstrate there is yet to be any definitive insight into what remains an unrealized, aspirational ideal.

One would think that if there was any single topic in which God should have the last word, ‘Love’ would be it. I’m still waiting.

 

[grannymh]

The question is have we understood correctly the nature of Love? Does human nature even come equipped with such understanding? Probably not. There is certainly as much contention and confusion over that idea as there is over the nature of God. And religious tradition would appear part of the problem rather that the source of any secure understanding. The current debates between ‘gay’ and ‘strait’ love aptly demonstrate there is yet to be any definitive insight into what remains an unrealized, aspirational ideal.

One would think that if there was any single topic in which God should have the last word, ‘Love’ would be it. I’m still waiting.

John 3: 16-17

 

[grannymh]

I don’t understand how having knowledge of good and evil equals a fall from grace.

The reason that you don’t understand “how having knowledge of good and evil equals a fall from grace.” is because that bit of nonsense is not Catholic teaching even though a few “interpreters” insist on a similar explanation for that forbidden tree.

Why is knowledge non-grace-ful?
God and the angels and the saints etc. have knowledge of good and evil, and they are “graceful”, yes?
Is the message that people should not seek knowledge of their own?

When reading the first three chapters of Genesis, it becomes apparent that Adam has a rational mind and therefore, he would logically seek knowledge on his own. Gardeners are constantly learning from the ground up.

And also…if Adam and Eve did not know about good/evil and therefore did not suspect this snake was suggesting something bad, why would they be punished for this? For being trusting souls? (and everyone else is punished, forever and ever, too? This seems rather extreme.)

If Adam did not know about good/evil, he would not be a human person.

In this mortal world, all it would take after taking a bite of fruit from a tree you were told not to touch is an “I’m sorry” and a confession to be absolved of this mistake, which was not done on purpose or with malice or bad intent at all.

Just like the story about George Washington and the cherry tree. The difficulty is that like George Washington and his father, Adam was not on the same level as his Creator. I am not sure why some, not all, people find it hard to relate to the difference between Creator and creature.

 

[simpleas]

I don’t understand how having knowledge of good and evil equals a fall from grace.
Why is knowledge non-grace-ful?
God and the angels and the saints etc. have knowledge of good and evil, and they are “graceful”, yes?
Is the message that people should not seek knowledge of their own?

And also…if Adam and Eve did not know about good/evil and therefore did not suspect this snake was suggesting something bad, why would they be punished for this? For being trusting souls? (and everyone else is punished, forever and ever, too? This seems rather extreme.)
In this mortal world, all it would take after taking a bite of fruit from a tree you were told not to touch is an “I’m sorry” and a confession to be absolved of this mistake, which was not done on purpose or with malice or bad intent at all.

.

I get what you are asking because I have asked something of the same. Gen 3:22 seems to say that Adam had become “like” God with his knowledge of Good and Evil.

You may find this interesting :

It seems that God is asking humanity to live inside of a cosmic humility, as God also does. In that holding pattern, we bear the ambiguity, the inconsistencies, and the brokenness of all things (which might be called love), instead of insisting on dividing reality into the supposed good guys and the certain bad guys as our dualistic mind loves to imagine. Such non-dual consciousness is our ultimate act of solidarity with humanity and even the doorway to wisdom. With this mind we realize, as Martin Luther wisely put it, we are simul justus et peccator, simultaneously both sinner and saint. Only the mind of God can hold these two together.

We read the story of humanity’s original sin in Genesis. There Yahweh says, “Don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17). Now why would that be a sin? It sounds like a good thing, doesn’t it? We were actually trained to think that way.

In the seminary we took serious courses on “moral theology” to help us rightly discern who was good and who was bad. Unfortunately, this usually only emboldened the very judgmental mind that Jesus warned us against (see Matthew 7:1-2). Some then thought that this was the whole meaning of Christianity—religion’s purpose was to monitor and police society in regard to its morals. Religion became all about morality instead of being a result and corollary of Divine Encounter. As such, this was much more a search for control or righteousness than it was a search for truth, love, or God. It had to do with the ego’s need for certitude, superiority, and order. Is that what Jesus came for? Jesus never said, “You must be right,” or much less, “You must be sure you are good and right.” Instead he said, “You must love one another.” His agenda is about growing in faith, hope, and love while always knowing that “God alone is good.”

I guess God knew that dualistic thinking would be the direction religion would take. So the Bible says right at the beginning, “Don’t do it!” The word of God is trying to keep us from religion’s constant temptation and failure—a demand for certitude, an undue need for perfect explanation, resolution, and answers, which is, by the way, the exact opposite of faith. Such dualistic thinking (preferring a false either/or to an always complex reality) tends to create arrogant and smug people instead of humble and loving people. Too much “eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” might just be the major sin of all religion—especially Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Bible’s first warning has consistently been ignored.

It shed alittle light on how it may be thought of, for me.

If Adam knew full well that what he would do, would cause bad effects to his human nature, his Eve’s the whole human race, including creation, and he still went and did it, he was already a God, because he could “see” the out come and rejection of God. His thoughts were already of bad intent, because doing something like rejecting God and causing the impact of a fallen nature doesn’t come from an all graceful person…I don’t think so anyway?
Then if Adam and Eve were just two innocent humans, graceful and tricked by satan, because they had no clue as to what disobeying God would mean, then God wasn’t really with them or they with God in the beginning.
Genesis can be thought of as just a story to tell the people that if you do bad and reject God, bad things will happen to you, if you do Good and love God, good things will happen to you.
But as I’ve learnt on CAFwe don’t think, either/or , it’s, both/and. So I think the story can be thought of as both = seeking knowledge when we shouldn’t really because it gets us into trouble sometimes and to love God as best we can, because he loves us for who we are. (even if we keep eating from the tree!!)

 

[grannymh]

We read the story of humanity’s original sin in Genesis. There Yahweh says, “Don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:17). **Now why would that be a sin? **

Very good question which I put in bold. A show stopper for sure.

I believe the answer refers to why the Ten Commandments exist.

 

[simpleas]

grannymh:
Very good question which I put in bold. A show stopper for sure.

I believe the answer refers to why the Ten Commandments exist.

The commandments teach us what we should do, not do etc, only when sin had entered the world.
Before that the only thing Adam needed to do was tend to the garden and not eat from the tree.
Having the commandments doesn’t explain why it was wrong to eat from a tree that gives knowledge of Good and Evil, because they are only inforced after the sin and is why they are then needed to help people remain with God.
God wanted Adam to be able to choose, so in order to choose we have freewill, Adam chose wrongly, but he would have needed to choose between God and not God.
So why having knowledge of both Good and Evil is wrong I don’t understand.
Knowing not to disobey I get, but only after knowing why.