The sin of Adam and Eve affected all of creation?

[RCCB]

Outstanding question. I think you’ve hit upon something that’s very important: theology has overlooked the magnitude of the sin committed by Adam/Eve. I personally believe that they destroyed the entire cosmos itself. I think that modern Christianity has a very watered-down interpretation of what happened at the tree of the knowledge of good/evil.

The question becomes even more important in that if our understanding of the Fall is so watered down, as religion is unable to define specifically the nature and act of that first disobedience, then our understanding of our return to grace and salvation is equally suspect! Tradition is not part of any criteria for truth and equally capable of perpetuating error as any claim to wisdom. History has yet to judge?

 

[onenow1]

The question becomes even more important in that if our understanding of the Fall is so watered down, as religion is unable to define specifically the nature and act of that first disobedience, then our understanding of our return to grace and salvation is equally suspect! Tradition is not part of any criteria for truth and equally capable of perpetuating error as any claim to wisdom. History has yet to judge?

In my opinion disobeying God no matter the cause is a grave matter; for instance if a child does not understand the consequences of a harmful action and does it anyway, correction is mandated for sure. The way I see it God gave dominion to man until he thought of himself as god with the prompting of the accuser, mankind has to come to grips that God is an awesome God and there is no other.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[edwest2]

We all inherit Original Sin. As far as creation:

biblehub.com/romans/8-21.htm

biblehub.com/romans/8-22.htm

All of Creation suffered after The Fall.

Peace,
Ed

 

[hasantas]

Think my question is this :

…

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

Whole world did not affected. Adam and all other creatures were created on the world. The plants and animals were created before Adam. We know God settled Adam and Eve in Heavens although of which we cannot know the property exactly but that issue is in all scriptures.

Animals suffer or how much they suffer is an other issue.

The removal of Adam from Heavens is for a task. That task is to examine mankinds. God intended to exam humanbeing to distinguish the bad and the good. God know with His eternal knowledge that Adam would commit that sin. But that not means that God imposed Adam to commit sin. God provide humanbeing a free will. Adam choosed to disobey by deception of Devil. Already God would examine humanbeing as God examined Adam and Eve. And the Heavens is not appropriate place for that. But the world is exactly suitable for that.

Humanbeing’s temperament is fond of to sin as Adam did. Humanbeing is not sinful because of Adam’s sin but humanbeing inherit from Adam(God created that nature) the nature which could commit sin easily. God does not want/intend humanbeing to never commit sin but God want humanbeing to repent and ask for forgiveness allways. Adam asked and repent and God forgave Adam.

 

[steve_b]

Think my question is this :

How do we understand that by Adam and Eve’s sin, the whole of the world was affected?

But by the time I write what I’m thinking there will probably by more questions!!

I’m considering that as God created the universe, the earth, the animal kingdom, and then A&E. I assume God made the animals from the earth, as did he make A&E.

He made A&E unique as he made them in his image and likeness.

By committing an offence to God and disobeying his command to not eat of the tree, they do and gain knowledge of Good and Evil.
They fall from grace, as they are made in Gods image.
The animal kingdom is not made in Gods image, but is a part of what God made, as with the earth and the universe.

So could it be that we are one with the animals, earth and the universe, that by the humans choice to disobey God, not only was human nature wounded, the animals, the earth and possibly the universe was affected?

The animals and humans were not meant to die, through sin animals and humans die.
But where does the earth being affected come into it? When it’s noted that work is a burden now, that before A&E didn’t have to work hard for food and water, does it mean just that, and not that the earth would naturally have at the time before sin, been created with earthquakes, volcano’s etc. Considering what we know now about our planet, how natural disasters (unfortunately kill people and animals) they also formed alot of places in our world which we consider to be beautiful.

Discussion and thoughts welcome from all.

A & E were created perfect. No sin in them. Once they sinned they couldn’t unring that bell. Therefore they couldn’t pass on to their offspring what they lost before their fall into sin. The CCC puts it this way 405

 

[Achilles6129]

A & E were created perfect. No sin in them. Once they sinned they couldn’t unring that bell. Therefore they couldn’t pass on to their offspring what they lost before their fall into sin. The CCC puts it this way 405

Why couldn’t they “unring that bell”? Something must have changed in their DNA. The tree of the knowledge of good/evil must have infected their DNA and they pass it on to their descendants.

 

[modofac]

Well, was a Baptist, I used to ask this question, and I was assured that before the Fall, lions ate grass…

When I was a teenager, I realized that lions had sharp teeth and claws, and always had sharp teeth and claws, else they wouldn’t be lions.

When I was in college, I read Twain’s “Diary of Adam and Eve” and laughed out loud at the ‘animal battle’, where Adam sees all of the peaceful animals fall upon each other in mortal combat at the moment of Eve’s sin.

This is a children’s religion. For those who wish to have it, it is available. It is called ‘Fundamentalism’. I’m not a Fundy. Not anymore. I’m a Catholic. The teaching of our holy Popes and Ecumenical councils allows me to affirm that physical death already existed in the animal kingdom…and had for billions of years…at the time of the Fall.

 

[wmw]

The story takes place in Eden not earth, a place we can never go. The sin of Adam and Eve had to have such a great effect that it effected all of history too. The world was made from decaying elementary particles formed in the initial seconds of creation. Eden is out of place, out of time, another universe, or fictional, but since Adam sinned this is how it has always been and the animals have grown and become from part of this decaying world to be adapted and part of the decay. Yet, what God wanted was perfection, sin made that impossible. Not that God could not do something else, but He saw that the best way was to let the wheat grow among the thorns for the later harvest.

 

[hasantas]

The story takes place in Eden not earth, a place we can never go. The sin of Adam and Eve had to have such a great effect that it effected all of history too. The world was made from decaying elementary particles formed in the initial seconds of creation. Eden is out of place, out of time, another universe, or fictional, but since Adam sinned this is how it has always been and the animals have grown and become from part of this decaying world to be adapted and part of the decay. Yet, what God wanted was perfection, sin made that impossible. Not that God could not do something else, but He saw that the best way was to let the wheat grow among the thorns for the later harvest.

So Christians think all animals fall from Heavens? İs there anything about that subject in Bible? Adam and all other earthly alives were created on the world. We cannot know How God took Adam and Eve to Eden but they were on the world initially.

1. From the (earth) did We create you, and into it shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again. Quran 20:55
2. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay: Quran 38:71
3. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.” Quran 2:30
4. And We said: “O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.” Quran 2:35
5. When We said to the angels, “Prostrate yourselves to Adam”, they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused.
6. Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.
7. But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, “O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?”
8. In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and fell into error. Quran 20: 116,117,120,121

 

[RCCB]

In my opinion disobeying God no matter the cause is a grave matter;

That is to avoid the question. Not only is existing theology and tradition unable to clearly define precisely the nature of that first, SINGLE disobedience; a ‘sin’ so grave and unlike any other that it separates us from the grace and favor of God; it is also unable to define the the original first and SINGLE command of God.

Religion in the purest sense must be about our return to God. And yet without knowing how that relationship was lost, how can the re-establishment of that relationship be found?

The two most important elements of understanding both ourselves and God are missing from religious tradition. Lost somewhere in the shifting historical sands of theological exegesis. Yet until that understanding is complete, all religious claims remain suspect.

 

[simpleas]

Thanks all for your thoughts.

About the garden : Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.

I took this to mean that the garden was in the east on earth. Man was made from the earth. The earth and every living thing upon the earth most likely was pure, perfected, no more toxic gases that science tells us once was part of how our earth was created. Yet we accept that the earth had to have earthquakes, volcanoes to form itself and is still doing so. And we know about the sun and other planets.

If we think of the garden being in the east of the heavens, not of the earth, then man would not have been made from the earth, he would have been made of the heavens. Then A&E come supernatural almost, a higher type of human being if you like. When they turned away from God, God sends them to the earth as punishment along with satan. Man then has to turn toward God, to accept a supernatural experience and become perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . without knowing how that relationship was lost, how can the re-establishment of that relationship be found? . . t.

:twocents:

The relationship has been broken, or you would not be asking these questions. You would be communing with God.

What you are asking is complex and involves many other questions.
One of these has to do the nature of man in that we exist as individuals and as one body.
Thus through the act of the first person, individual and as all humanity, we fell.
In Christ, who is man and God, who is the Way in whom we grow in love, who is the one true vine, we re-establish our relationship with God.
In a sense we were asked in Eden whether we wished to participate in the Trinity (I apologize that I do not have better words to describe this).
The Father gives all He is to the Son, who returns the Love through His obedience, to the point that He took on all sin within Himself.
The Son, in becoming flesh, brings us to that same filial, loving relationship He has with our Creator.
In becoming man and in the eucharist, the Word embraces the material world; Thereby He brings all creation back into communion with the Godhead.

Something like that.

 

[steve_b]

Why couldn’t they “unring that bell”?

They were no longer perfect.

If Jesus sinned even ONCE, even the littlest sin, would He have been able to be the perfect offering to the Father for us?
A:

Something must have changed in their DNA. The tree of the knowledge of good/evil must have infected their DNA and they pass it on to their descendants.

as the Catechism points out,

Their sin deprived them and in extension us, of original holiness and justice, because they can’t pass on to their offspring what they lost. The nature they had in it’s original unblemished state, has been corrupted but not totally: Their nature and so in extension ours, is wounded now, in the natural powers proper to it, now subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". While we blame A & E for this, it’s obvious someone sometime would have blown it and we would be talking about THEM the same way we talk about A & E. Baptism imparts the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

ergo right after the fall

God gives us good news (proto evangelium) Genesis 3:15 the plan to crush Satan through Mary and Jesus the new Adam and new Eve thus a new creation story to come

 

[wmw]

So Christians think all animals fall from Heavens? İs there anything about that subject in Bible? Adam and all other earthly alives were created on the world. We cannot know How God took Adam and Eve to Eden but they were on the world initially.

I said they could well have been on this earth, part of the time or the whole time. Christians are not required to believe either and not that they or the animals
came about all at once or over billions of years. Please don’t reinterpret my words so wrongly.

Exactly, the method of how the world changed from the initial sins of Adam and Eve are not made clear, but the degree of change was enormous and from the very roots of creation. Not knowing exactly the changes are not important because we are not our own spiritual Doctors, but Christ is and all we need to know and follow is His prescription.

 

[onenow1]

That is to avoid the question. Not only is existing theology and tradition unable to clearly define precisely the nature of that first, SINGLE disobedience; a ‘sin’ so grave and unlike any other that it separates us from the grace and favor of God; it is also unable to define the the original first and SINGLE command of God. .

Maybe this ? Man was created as a friend, in His image in a preternatural state with free will to accept Him or not to accept as a friend. I believe the sin was the devils lie, they would be like God. Eve accepted the half truth, Adam did not protect her from this evil, he stood silent. Could this be cowardice on Adams part not protecting what God freely gave to him the authority over nature itself, was he afraid of the devil rather then being obedient to God ? I think Jesus gave us the answer when He said satin was a liar from the beginning. The dominion of God requires justice and a request for mercy they did not repent.

God Bless

 

[Aloysium]

Maybe this ? Man was created as a friend, in His image in a preternatural state with free will to accept Him or not to accept as a friend. I believe the sin was the devils lie, they would be like God. Eve accepted the half truth, Adam did not protect her from this evil, he stood silent. Could this be cowardice on Adams part not protecting what God freely gave to him the authority over nature itself, was he afraid of the devil rather then being obedient to God ? I think Jesus gave us the answer when He said satin was a liar from the beginning. The dominion of God requires justice and a request for mercy they did not repent.

God Bless

Scripture doesn’t actually say why Adam ate the apple too.
I wonder if it he wanted to share the same fate as Eve.
He would not leave her.
He loved her more than he loved God and did not trust that God would make it right.
That perhaps is why Abraham had to demonstrate his love and obedience to God - however wondrous God’s creation, it does not surpass it’s Creator - Love Itself.
Merely speculating, but it sure would be reason why we might be worth saving.

Of course it all went sour; without true love, it always does. It was all her fault after that; at least that’s how he wanted to think it.

 

[Achilles6129]

Scripture doesn’t actually say why Adam ate the apple too.

For starters, there’s no proof it was an apple. Second, Scripture does say why Adam ate of the fruit:

“17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’” Gen. 3:17 (NIV)

Adam ate from the fruit in direct disobedience to God’s commands.

 

[RCCB]

Maybe this ?

You’re welcome to a faith based upon a theological ‘maybe’ that isn’t good enough for me. I’m sure God can do better!

 

[Aloysium]

. . . a faith based upon a theological ‘maybe’ that isn’t good enough for me. I’m sure God can do better!

I think i’m misunderstanding, but of course God can do better. He created onenow1 didn’t He. God loves you anyway - O ye of little faith.

The first letter of Paul to the Corinthians popped into mind:

13: If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[simpleas]

Scripture doesn’t actually say why Adam ate the apple too.
I wonder if it he wanted to share the same fate as Eve.
He would not leave her.
He loved her more than he loved God and did not trust that God would make it right.
That perhaps is why Abraham had to demonstrate his love and obedience to God - however wondrous God’s creation, it does not surpass it’s Creator - Love Itself.
Merely speculating, but it sure would be reason why we might be worth saving.

Of course it all went sour; without true love, it always does. It was all her fault after that; at least that’s how he wanted to think it.

Aloysium, I know you are just speculating here, but you say Adam loved Eve more than God, and so took the fruit to so that he would not be separated from Eve. Both first parents (and us of course) are made in the image and likeness of God. So in loving Eve, Adam loved God.
If his love of Eve was pure and strong, that he broke the rule in order to be with her, why would the God of love punish an act of love from his own created image?

Then you say it went sour because Adam blamed Eve, without true love it always does. So did Adam truly love his Eve as you seem to say, because if he did, he would have continued to state that, rather than put blame onto her?