The sin of pride

[carol_marie]

askeptic:

Especially if they gave up happiness and a good life in order to avoid hell.

I can’t imgine a “happy or good life” apart from God. True happiness & contentment always comes from doing the will of God. Everything else is fleeting. Material possessions - they break, get old, rust - people can disappoint & fail us - but God is always faithful - always loving.

It makes me so sad as I type of all this to know that since you describe yourself as “agnostic” - all of this must sound so foreign to you? I can’t relate - at all - to the thought that maybe God exists - maybe He doesn’t - don’t know… don’t really care… just as you probably can’t relate to how much I LOVE God… KNOW without any doubt whatsoever that He loves me & look forward to spending all of eternity with Him. God isn’t a mystery to me in the least - I feel as close to Him as I feel to any of my own children. That sort of knowing gives me a peace that I can’t even describe. I’m sad that you must not know what that feels like?

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

I don’t see any value in obeying an unjust authority. For instance, in the Old Testament “God” frequently orders that people be stoned for things like breaking the Sabbath rules.

If God told you to stone somebody who was gathering wood on the sabbath, would you do it?

With a God like that, one wonders who needs the devil.

why would a catholic think in such a manner?

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?”

“This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him.”

“But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.”

“And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.”

“When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?”

“She said, No man, Lord.”

“And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”

 

[askeptic]

carol marie:

I can’t imgine a “happy or good life” apart from God. True happiness & contentment always comes from doing the will of God. Everything else is fleeting. Material possessions - they break, get old, rust - people can disappoint & fail us - but God is always faithful - always loving.

It makes me so sad as I type of all this to know that since you describe yourself as “agnostic” - all of this must sound so foreign to you? I can’t relate - at all - to the thought that maybe God exists - maybe He doesn’t - don’t know… don’t really care… just as you probably can’t relate to how much I LOVE God… KNOW without any doubt whatsoever that He loves me & look forward to spending all of eternity with Him. God isn’t a mystery to me in the least - I feel as close to Him as I feel to any of my own children. That sort of knowing gives me a peace that I can’t even describe. I’m sad that you must not know what that feels like?

There was a time in my life when I was Catholic, so I have some idea of what you are talking about. I am glad that your religion gives you peace, and I wish you all the happiness in the world.

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

HAHAHA!

I quote exactly what Christ said about the kingdom of God and you say the exact opposite.

It is after all coming out of your mouth and you have rejected Christ.

You won’t find any followers here Satan. In the name of Christ move on and sow your weeds someplace else

Actually, what we have are men telling us what Jesus said.

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

There was a time in my life when I was Catholic, so I have some idea of what you are talking about. I am glad that your religion gives you peace, and I wish you all the happiness in the world.

If you are catholic then you will always be a child of God.

God does not abandon his childern even if they abandon him.

 

[carol_marie]

askeptic:

There was a time in my life when I was Catholic, so I have some idea of what you are talking about. I am glad that your religion gives you peace, and I wish you all the happiness in the world.

Thank you. And I wish the same for you.

Maybe someday you’ll come back to your Catholic roots? Regardless of where your life takes you, God will always welcome you home to His Church. And we, your brothers & sisters, will celebrate on that day.

God bless you,
CM

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

why would a catholic think in such a manner?

The quote you provided highlights of of the many contradictions found in the supposed word of God. First God tells people to stone everyone who in the slightest way breaks a commandment, and then he tells them not to do it.

It doesn’t make sense.

On the other hand, if the Old Testament is a human attempt to organize society, and if human beings back then were primitive and violent, then it makes far more sense for them to have made harsh and unforgiving rules to maintain order.

Later on as culture became more sophisticated some revolutionaries fought to change those rules to be more sensitive to human beings.

One might argue that in modern times these changes are still going on, and people are working harder and harder for human rights, quality of life, and human happiness, and becoming more and more forgiving and accepting of human beings (i.e. consider homosexuality).

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

Actually, what we have are men telling us what Jesus said.

All I have to say it that you will never find the kind of proof that you are looking for about God. You will search for it but you won’t find it . The truth is a hidden treasure that is only found by those with faith.

Faith does not require physical proof of anything. Its foundation is based on love.

Love requires faith.

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

All I have to say it that you will never find the kind of proof that you are looking for about God. You will search for it but you won’t find it . The truth is a hidden treasure that is only found by those with faith.

Faith does not require physical proof of anything. Its foundation is based on love.

Love requires faith.

Could be. I presume that teaching came from men?

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

The quote you provided highlights of of the many contradictions found in the supposed word of God. First God tells people to stone everyone who in the slightest way breaks a commandment, and then he tells them not to do it.

It doesn’t make sense.

On the other hand, if the Old Testament is a human attempt to organize society, and if human beings back then were primitive and violent, then it makes far more sense for them to have made harsh and unforgiving rules to maintain order.

Later on as culture became more sophisticated some revolutionaries fought to change those rules to be more sensitive to human beings.

One might argue that in modern times these changes are still going on, and people are working harder and harder for human rights, quality of life, and human happiness, and becoming more and more forgiving and accepting of human beings (i.e. consider homosexuality).

It makes perfect sense. Christ is the example of God reaching out toward us. The Old Testament is an example of Man trying to find God. That is the difference.

Christ comes to us in love and dies for us all out of love. Christ came to set us right and walk with us on the path to eternal life.

People who are confused about Christianity often site examples from the Old Testament to invalidate the New Testament. The truth is the exact opposite. You can’t understand the old estimate with out the New Testament.

So there is no contradiction

The problem is that the word of God (Christ) was rejected the moment it was spoken.

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

Could be. I presume that teaching came from men?

It came from Christ. And his word is self evident. You can’t ever argue that his word isn’t the path of love

Love is the truth that is self evident in the world.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

It makes perfect sense. Christ is the example of God reaching out toward us. The Old Testament is an example of Man trying to find God. That is the difference.

Christ comes to us in love and dies for us all out of love. Christ came to set us right and walk with us on the path to eternal life.

People who are confused about Christianity often site examples from the Old Testament to invalidate the New Testament. The truth is the exact opposite. You can’t understand the old estimate with out the New Testament.

So there is no contradiction

The problem is that the word of God (Christ) was rejected the moment it was spoken.

Are you Catholic? Because the Catholic Church has the following to say about OT:

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism). Catechism of Catholic Church

And this is what Jesus himself says about OT:

Mark 7:

8 You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition."
**9 He went on to say, “How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition!
10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’ **
11 Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’ 4 (meaning, dedicated to God),
12 you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother.
13 You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.”

And for the record, here is the passage Jesus references:

Leviticus 20:
8 Be careful, therefore, to observe what I, the LORD, who make you holy, have prescribed.
9 "Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life.

Deutoronomy 21:

18 **"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they chastise him, ** 19 6 his father and mother shall have him apprehended and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city,
20 where they shall say to those city elders, ‘This son of ours is a stubborn and unruly fellow who will not listen to us; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
**21 Then all his fellow citizens shall stone him to death. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel, on hearing of it, shall fear. **

Would you be willing to obey these teachings and stone people who curse their parents or refuse to listen to/obey their harepnts?

Why doesn’t Jesus condemn those teachings?

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

It came from Christ. And his word is self evident. You can’t ever argue that his word isn’t the path of love

Love is the truth that is self evident in the world.

Would it be safe to say man told you that? If not how did you learn it?

 

[LeahInancsi]

Black Jaque:

It seems like Pride is the most difficult sin to spot because it can be so insidious. When I look around me, most people have the sense to admit they do not deserve heaven. However I see a lot of people who do think they are too good for hell. Is that a sin of pride?

I’ll take another shot at this topic.

While heaven is not a gift (free) and most all of us will probably have to spend some time in Purgatory, I don’t think many of us deserve hell. Therefore, most of us will eventually get to heaven. Whether or not we deserve it or not, Jesus died to enable us to go heaven and in the end, it is out of our hands.

 

[JamesG]

Aquarius:

Would it be safe to say man told you that? If not how did you learn it?

Jesus who is a man told us that. So it is partly correct that a man did tell us that.

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

Are you Catholic? Because the Catholic Church has the following to say about OT:
And this is what Jesus himself says about OT:
And for the record, here is the passage Jesus references:

explain how it is this passage that jesus references? Does his words in my previous quotation not directly instruct us that it is wrong?

For the record you are completely wrong about the teaching of christ.

Would you be willing to obey these teachings and stone people who curse their parents or refuse to listen to/obey their harepnts?

Never.

I would only do what Jesus has instructed us to do. This is against the teachings of jesus. In fact they once tried to stone Jesus.

It was this very mentality that resulted in the death of Jesus.

Why doesn’t Jesus condemn those teachings?

Jesus condems this passage every time he teaches us about forgivness. There are countless examples of this through out the Gospel.

Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1
18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23

Forgiveness is at the center of Jesus’ teachings. And he practiced it himself, as he was dying on the cross, when he prayed and forgave the people who had just brutally tortured him and were killing him, saying, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.”

There are many texts in the OT that are still valid today. Following the message of christ does not make those texts invalid. A catholic as a different perspective on the OT. That perspective is based on the word and actions of Jesus. I never said that the NT invalidates the OT like you acused me of.

 

[JamesG]

JamesG:

Jesus who is both man and God told us that. So it is partly correct that a man did tell us that.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

explain how it is this passage that jesus references? Does his words in my previous quotation not directly instruct us that it is wrong?

For the record you are completely wrong about the teaching of christ.

Hmm, it seems to me that Jesus is affirming Moses’ law in those words. Stonings for various offenses such as disobeying parents and breaking the sabbath are a part of Moses’ law.

Never.

I would only do what Jesus has instructed us to do. This is against the teachings of jesus. In fact they once tried to stone Jesus.

It was this very mentality that resulted in the death of Jesus.

What if you were a Jew living around the time of Moses and were told by Moses/God to stone someone who picked up sticks on a sabbath, would you do it?

Jesus condems this passage every time he teaches us about forgivness. There are countless examples of this through out the Gospel.

Scripture: Matthew 18:21-19:1
18:21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.23

Forgiveness is at the center of Jesus’ teachings. And he practiced it himself, as he was dying on the cross, when he prayed and forgave the people who had just brutally tortured him and were killing him, saying, “Father, forgive them; they know not what they do.”

There are many texts in the OT that are still valid today. Following the message of christ does not make those texts invalid. A catholic as a different perspective on the OT. That perspective is based on the word and actions of Jesus. I never said that the NT invalidates the OT like you acused me of.

Forgiveness is a great teaching, and I’m very glad that most Christians today don’t take the stoning passage from OT seriously. But they are there, and they are attributed to God.

What do you say to that?

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

Hmm, it seems to me that Jesus is affirming Moses’ law in those words. Stonings for various offenses such as disobeying parents and breaking the sabbath are a part of Moses’ law.

please explain what passage you are talking about. When did Christ ever affirm stoning?

You only have to read the words of christ to know that his message is the message of Love.

What if you were a Jew living around the time of Moses and were told by Moses/God to stone someone who picked up sticks on a sabbath, would you do it?

Well now you are trying to change me into something I am not so that you can have a reason to condem my faith.

The mistakes that people made about the nature of God in the OT are the very evils that Jesus came to correct.

John 5:1-18 — The Gospel of John has some additional stories about Jesus’ Sabbath activities, and they reinforce the emphases we have already seen. On the Sabbath, Jesus healed a man who had been an invalid for 38 years. And he told the man, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk” (verse 8). The Jews accused the man of breaking the Sabbath because he was carrying his mat.

The synagogue ruler (most synagogues were run by Pharisees) complained, saying that healing was a work that could be done on the other six days and was not appropriate for the Sabbath (verse 14). "The Lord answered him, `You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?’ " (verses 15-16).

Forgiveness is a great teaching, and I’m very glad that most Christians today don’t take the stoning passage from OT seriously. But they are there, and they are attributed to God.

What do you say to that?

They are attributed to God by some men, but Jesus came to correct those messages. In fact, he had many battles with the Pharisees over these very issues. They even killed him for it.

 

[Aquarius]

JamesG:

Jesus who is a man told us that. So it is partly correct that a man did tell us that.

If you spoke to him, that’s amazing. If he spoke to you, that’s even more amazing. But, I bet someone told you he said those things. I think the group that claims the authority to do that is the Church. I bet an agent of the Church told you those things.