The sin of pride

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

From the angle of a God who literally loves you into existance. Came and took that “stoning” on your behalf so you would have a second chance, and a 3rd chance, and a 4th and a 5th.

Of course God is not something you figure out, He’s a someone you get to know. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He’ll do it.

I admire your sincerity. I’d much more appreciate sincere atheists than so called cafeteria Catholics, or people who do not think about their faith life at all. In fact, I’d guess that if I had the experiences you had, I wouldn’t be Catholic either.

Well, if someone loved me into existence, and took a stoning on my behalf, I find it puzzling that he would want to have people stoned for picking up sticks or spend eternity being tortured. That’s not a hard angle to imagine.

 

[askeptic]

Black Jaque:

From the angle of a God who literally loves you into existance. Came and took that “stoning” on your behalf so you would have a second chance, and a 3rd chance, and a 4th and a 5th.

Of course God is not something you figure out, He’s a someone you get to know. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. He’ll do it.

I admire your sincerity. I’d much more appreciate sincere atheists than so called cafeteria Catholics, or people who do not think about their faith life at all. In fact, I’d guess that if I had the experiences you had, I wouldn’t be Catholic either.

But in the Old Testament the same God ordered the stonings! How can you just ignore this? It is contradictory. Why would God first order stonings, then a thousand or so years later come to change the rules? Why do not institute just laws from the beginning?

I have been asking God to reveal himself to me for quite a while. I used to be Catholic, but I am not any longer.

Never, not once, did God reveal himself to me. He is free to do that. If he did that I would become Catholic again.

 

[Reena]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1296504#post1296504

I am the same person as ASkeptic, and since my account was suspended I wrote my apology here.

 

[Black_Jaque]

But in the Old Testament the same God ordered the stonings! How can you just ignore this? It is contradictory. Why would God first order stonings, then a thousand or so years later come to change the rules? Why do not institute just laws from the beginning?

I’ll start with the last question first. The OT laws are just laws. Perhaps they are not very merciful. In most households the spankings are done by the same father that loves those children so dearly. Is it that difficult to imagine? And, finally why would a father spank his young children, then after they reach a certain age switch to giving them a lecture or grounding them? As human society matured we became more capable of understanding God’s intentions.

I have been asking God to reveal himself to me for quite a while. I used to be Catholic, but I am not any longer.

Never, not once, did God reveal himself to me. He is free to do that. If he did that I would become Catholic again.

What sort of revelation are you expecting? Are you expecting a miracle? Be careful about insisting on something great for proof, because to whom much is given much will be expected. 11 of the 12 guys who were given the privilege of hanging around Jesus ended up martyrs.

You ask some very challenging questions. And perhaps I lack the knowlege and intelligence to answer them to your satisfaction. Have you consulted experts? Have you tried the Ask an Apologist board? If even the experts can’t answer to your satisfaction, perhaps God is grooming you to be the one to write an answer to give mankind a better understanding to those questions.

Surely though this can’t be the only hang-up that has caused you to lose faith. For example, I can’t understand the ins and outs of black holes, and the relativity of time, but I have some faith in the experts who study these things. Therefore I believe black holes exist. My lack of understanding doesn’t interfere with my believing.

Why do I trust these astro-physicists? Because so much of what I can understand is true and comes from them. The earth is round, the solar system is heliocentric, yadda-yadda. The same with my Catholic faith. So much of it goes way over my head. But the stuff I can grasp all makes sense. And the more I plumb the depths the more sense it makes.

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

I’ll start with the last question first. The OT laws are just laws. Perhaps they are not very merciful. In most households the spankings are done by the same father that loves those children so dearly. Is it that difficult to imagine? And, finally why would a father spank his young children, then after they reach a certain age switch to giving them a lecture or grounding them? As human society matured we became more capable of understanding God’s intentions.

What sort of revelation are you expecting? Are you expecting a miracle? Be careful about insisting on something great for proof, because to whom much is given much will be expected. 11 of the 12 guys who were given the privilege of hanging around Jesus ended up martyrs.

You ask some very challenging questions. And perhaps I lack the knowlege and intelligence to answer them to your satisfaction. Have you consulted experts? Have you tried the Ask an Apologist board? If even the experts can’t answer to your satisfaction, perhaps God is grooming you to be the one to write an answer to give mankind a better understanding to those questions.

Surely though this can’t be the only hang-up that has caused you to lose faith. For example, I can’t understand the ins and outs of black holes, and the relativity of time, but I have some faith in the experts who study these things. Therefore I believe black holes exist. My lack of understanding doesn’t interfere with my believing.

Why do I trust these astro-physicists? Because so much of what I can understand is true and comes from them. The earth is round, the solar system is heliocentric, yadda-yadda. The same with my Catholic faith. So much of it goes way over my head. But the stuff I can grasp all makes sense. And the more I plumb the depths the more sense it makes.

Are you equating spankings with stonings?

 

[Black_Jaque]

Are you equating spankings with stonings?

Do you equate stealing cookies from a cookie jar with adultery?

There is something else that probably weighs in on our sense of judgement. That is the issue of culpability. Taking the Lord’s name in vain is a grave sin. The person who utters it may not be entirely culpable, because it is by force of habbit, but someone somewhere down the road will pay for it.

Does that mean that if you shout “Ow! God damn!” when you bump you head you’re going to hell? Not necessarily. You would have to examine the whole picture, coupled with the fact that we are all connected and hold some responsibility for each other’s salvation. So the person living in the U.S. in 2006 who takes to Lord’s name in vain doesn’t hold 100% culpability. This is because the exclamation of pain has been conditioned to his mind by hearing so many others say the same thing, under the same circumstances. So in a sense we all deserve the punishment to the extent that we’ve contributed to this person’s habbit.

Once you are aware that you have this habit, and that it is a grave sin, then you are obligated to take action to correct the habit. Whether you chose to take this action or not is certainly a more deliberate choice than the exclamation, and one you may well be held 100% culpable for.

And of course their are those in society who use the phrase rather deliberately. For example in making a movie, the director can include this phrase in the script, even insist on it being used. This is far from being “habit”. So that deliberate choice on the director’s part will go on to fuel that sense that “this is normal” in society as millions watch the movie.

Does it seem just that the director be held partly accountable for all the millions of “God-damns” that are uttered because his movies helped to trivialize the phrase? Perhaps there’s a special place in hell…

And of course if God’s name is trivialized in a society there will be lots of problems that arise from that. Exchanging vows in front of an altar loses meaning - which leads to divorce - which leads to screwed up kids - which leads to adult criminals - which leads to full prisons - which leads to a tax burden yadda-yadda.

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

Do you equate stealing cookies from a cookie jar with adultery?

There is something else that probably weighs in on our sense of judgement. That is the issue of culpability. Taking the Lord’s name in vain is a grave sin. The person who utters it may not be entirely culpable, because it is by force of habbit, but someone somewhere down the road will pay for it.

Does that mean that if you shout “Ow! God damn!” when you bump you head you’re going to hell? Not necessarily. You would have to examine the whole picture, coupled with the fact that we are all connected and hold some responsibility for each other’s salvation. So the person living in the U.S. in 2006 who takes to Lord’s name in vain doesn’t hold 100% culpability. This is because the exclamation of pain has been conditioned to his mind by hearing so many others say the same thing, under the same circumstances. So in a sense we all deserve the punishment to the extent that we’ve contributed to this person’s habbit.

Once you are aware that you have this habit, and that it is a grave sin, then you are obligated to take action to correct the habit. Whether you chose to take this action or not is certainly a more deliberate choice than the exclamation, and one you may well be held 100% culpable for.

And of course their are those in society who use the phrase rather deliberately. For example in making a movie, the director can include this phrase in the script, even insist on it being used. This is far from being “habit”. So that deliberate choice on the director’s part will go on to fuel that sense that “this is normal” in society as millions watch the movie.

Does it seem just that the director be held partly accountable for all the millions of “God-damns” that are uttered because his movies helped to trivialize the phrase? Perhaps there’s a special place in hell…

And of course if God’s name is trivialized in a society there will be lots of problems that arise from that. Exchanging vows in front of an altar loses meaning - which leads to divorce - which leads to screwed up kids - which leads to adult criminals - which leads to full prisons - which leads to a tax burden yadda-yadda.

I do not equate taking cookies with adultery. Nor do I think either deserves stoning.

Does saying, “God Damn” deserve either stoning or enending torture?

 

[Black_Jaque]

You do need to twist your thoughts a great deal to justify the idea of mudering a person by throwing rocks at him because he picked up some sticks on a sabbath.

Yes this is a very difficult stretch when one considers the Sabbath just another day. But consider the Sabbath as a sacred day and maybe the perspective changes.

Many husbands can’t understand why their wives get bent out of shape when the husband treats the anniversary like any other day. Two different perspectives.

The other thing is you and I may not be able to see, understand, or appreciate all the consequences of working on the Sabbath. But perhaps we can if we look.

Perhaps, Sam Walton’s father worked on Sunday. Sam witnessed this as a boy and when he grew to be a man, working on Sunday just seemed normal and inconsequential. So Sam expects all Wal-mart stores to be open for business. Since Wal-mart stores are open for business that means thousands of workers must go to work or be fired. That’s one less day that these workers can spend with their families. Family life becomes less important. Jobs and careers become over-exalted. Families break up because careers conflict with familial duties. Children get screwed up. And so on.

My appologies to Wal-mart, I realize they may not have started the trend but they contribute to it.

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

Yes this is a very difficult stretch when one considers the Sabbath just another day. But consider the Sabbath as a sacred day and maybe the perspective changes.

Many husbands can’t understand why their wives get bent out of shape when the husband treats the anniversary like any other day. Two different perspectives.

The other thing is you and I may not be able to see, understand, or appreciate all the consequences of working on the Sabbath. But perhaps we can if we look.

Perhaps, Sam Walton’s father worked on Sunday. Sam witnessed this as a boy and when he grew to be a man, working on Sunday just seemed normal and inconsequential. So Sam expects all Wal-mart stores to be open for business. Since Wal-mart stores are open for business that means thousands of workers must go to work or be fired. That’s one less day that these workers can spend with their families. Family life becomes less important. Jobs and careers become over-exalted. Families break up because careers conflict with familial duties. Children get screwed up. And so on.

My appologies to Wal-mart, I realize they may not have started the trend but they contribute to it.

If those poor Wal-Mart people had Sunday free, they could spend it shopping at Target.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Does saying, “God Damn” deserve either stoning or enending torture?

That depends on who God is. How great He is. How wonderful He is. If God is nothing much, no big deal, then using His name in vain isn’t a sin. However if God is a big deal, then abusing his name very well could be worth unending torture. Again, take into account the issue of culpability. If your utterance is due to habit that is propagated by hearing your father say it, then every utterance you make may be preparing your father’s place in hell - up to the point where you realize that you have the habit and should quit. Thereafter, you bear more responsibility.

 

[Black_Jaque]

If those poor Wal-Mart people had Sunday free, they could spend it shopping at Target.

Can you shop at Target earning a Wal-mart wage?

Anyway…

 

[Black_Jaque]

On the quasi-humorous note. Perhaps each infraction deserves whatever it says in the OT, but with the shared culpability figured in the stonings wouldn’t be as lethal.

For example: Wife gets neglected by husband. Wife feels lonesome. Another man shows interest in wife. Wife commits adultery.

Normally it takes 30 stones to kill a woman. Since the culpability is spread among the wife, the neglectful husband, and the other man they each get 10 stones and suffer a severe bruising but all are able to walk home.

Sound fair?

Or better yet, give the husband, the wife, and the other guy 10 stones each and let 'em have at it!

 

[Aquarius]

Black Jaque:

That depends on who God is. How great He is. How wonderful He is. If God is nothing much, no big deal, then using His name in vain isn’t a sin. However if God is a big deal, then abusing his name very well could be worth unending torture. Again, take into account the issue of culpability. If your utterance is due to habit that is propagated by hearing your father say it, then every utterance you make may be preparing your father’s place in hell - up to the point where you realize that you have the habit and should quit. Thereafter, you bear more responsibility.

OK. So under your view, does saying “God Damn” deserve stoning or enending torture?

 

[Black_Jaque]

OK. So under your view, does saying “God Damn” deserve stoning or enending torture?

Sure it deserves unending torture. It made number 2 of only 10 commandments that God wrote with his own hand - why would it be a trivial sin?

Do I understand it completely? No. I believe I’ve already illustrated how these minor things can have major implications when they become normalized in a society. Admittedly even with that I can’t entirely wrap my brain around why this is a mortal sin. But there are so many things in this universe that I can’t wrap my brain around yet I still believe.

Which brings us back to pride again. Could it be a sin of pride to insist that you will only believe that which you can understand?

 

[JamesG]

I think I would have to agree with Black Jaque.

Maybe people don’t realize how big a deal it is to sin against God.

Even the things that we might consider to be innocent could very well be deserving of death. After all our understanding of justice and punishment is transient.

I think we would first have to have a complete understanding of God from his perspective inorder to say that even the smallest sin is not deserving of physical death.

The other question that we have to ask is how does God understand physical death?

If every sin was deserving of death then it would only be Gods mercy that would allows us to live.

 

[Black_Jaque]

The other question that we have to ask is how does God understand physical death?

That’s a very good point. To which I will add that the OT stonings from God’s perspective may be cleansing the soul, even though it is killing the body. So that person stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath would have “paid the price” and now be allowed into heaven. See, stoning may only seem awful when you believe that death is final. If you believe in an eternal life, and moreover a resurection, then stoning is nothing more than a severe spanking.