The Sin of Shirk.

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Patrick_Joshua

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I have been studying Islam, I will be debating a few Muslim friends in a couple of weeks.

Although, I think, I have fount a really startling contradiction that pretty much jumps out of the pages.

According to Islam,
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians – whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)
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From the above passage, we agree that Jews,Christians and Sabians (Who are Sabians?) are saved, because we believe in God, the last days, and we “try” to do good.
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah** forgives all sins**: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. – Sura 39:53
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Allah Forgives all Sins, according to (Sura 39:53)

But here becomes the problem, according to Qu’ran, Allah, does not forgive the Sin of Shirk.
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. – Sura 4:48
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Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). – Sura 4:116
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So according to Islam, Allah forgives all sins (Sura 39:53), yet he does not forgive the Sin of Shirk. ( Sura 4:116) & (Sura 4:48).

Here is the other problem, Allah will save Jews aswell as Christians (2:62)

Also mentioned in (5:82) & (61:14) which I have not posted.

So we come to the conclusion Christians are saved. Yet according to Islam;
… (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).
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According to Islam we practice the sin of Shirk.***
…Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
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***According to Islam we practice the sin of Shirk.
Yet it says in (Sura 39:53) all sins are forgivable. Yet it states in (Sura 4:48) he does not forgive the sin of Shirk.

It also says; Christians shall be saved, (2:62), (5:82) & (61:14). Yet it says Christians practice the sin of Shirk (According to Islam), (4:171), (9:30-31).
 
I believe the “Sabians” are the followers of John the Baptist…they may have been the ancestors of the Mandeans of Iraq.

John the Baptist was a charismatic leader in his own right…many believed him to be the messiah. As I remember reading, they believe Jesus usurped John’s message after John was beheaded. There were “disputes” between John’s and Jesus followers…some is hinted in Acts when “Christians” insisted that the “baptism of John” was not adequate.
 
I believe the “Sabians” are the followers of John the Baptist…they may have been the ancestors of the Mandeans of Iraq.
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John the Baptist was a charismatic leader in his own right…many believed him to be the messiah. As I remember reading, they believe Jesus usurped John’s message after John was beheaded. There were “disputes” between John’s and Jesus followers…some is hinted in Acts when “Christians” insisted that the “baptism of John” was not adequate.
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Not sure thats accurate. My personal professor, Wikipedia, told me otherwise. 😃

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians

God Bless.
 
some christians dont practice shirk,it was specially so during the prophets time,sure today most christians practice shirk,you should read the sura more carefully,cuz it states:

"Surely** those who believe**, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians – whoeve**r believes in God **and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

,it doesnt state just christians,it states christians who believe…according to islam we know what it is-one God(no trinity).So its about christians that believe in one God,very few but they exist
 
Patrick_Joshua said:
I have been studying Islam, I will be debating a few Muslim friends in a couple of weeks…
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To be honest mate, if your friends know their stuff you’ll get pasted. The Qur’an has a unique style and uses lots of ellipses, so you’ll get a reference to something and then you may get a further detail to it somewhere else. Maybe one verse abrogates another or one is specific and one is general. Also Islam is belief in God and Muhammad (pbuh) so you cannot discount the Prophets words (hadith) or life (sirah) to explain the verse. Then you have the stumbling block of Arabic. Its hard to get a comprehensive knowledge of the Qur’an, whilst some verses are clear and easy to understand some are much more difficult, primarily because they are talking to experts. No person should try and read the Qur’an by itself and then hope to understand Islam. I would try and help you with you questions, but I’m just a bit busy, although I recommend you look at the commentary (tafsir) by Mufti Shafi Usmani (generally considered best and detailed complete tafsir translated thus far) found at: islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm (sorry the format is a bit unhelpful). You could try ibn Kathir’s at www.tafsir.com, but its had the petro-dollar makeover so don’t believe everything you read (check against first link).
On a last point. You should know that only the terrorists and heretics do this sola scriptura reading of the Qur’an everyone else uses tradition. So the logical question is, should Islam answer for an interpretation which it never had in mind and which no (legitimate) Muslim has ever used?
This was meant to be helpful, I hope it was 🙂 Thanks for the early spread of Catholicism in the UK post… any chance you could give me a link for further reading 😃
 
But Christians do believe in one God. It is upon the nature of that one God that we disagree with Islam. So, does the Sura speak of forgiveness of all monotheists, or only those monotheists who reject the Trinity (a doctrine that is consistent with Monotheism, albeit inconsistent with specific Islamic tenets). For if the latter, then the sura is largely inconsistent with the fundamental tenets of Christianity that proclaimed Jesus the Second Person of the Godhead, and loses all meaning. Is this not so?

Peace,
Robert
 
I think the evidence I layed out my Muslim friend is pretty much right. Maybe the odd word is wrong, since the original source is Arabic but the message is the same.
Then you have the stumbling block of Arabic.
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This is the usual argument from Muslims is “look at the original Arabic”. I’m pretty sure the English translations of the Qu’ran have not drifted that far away from the original writings. It is probably the same message. We have pretty good translators these days.

Muslims are pretty smart people, you cannot claim “look at the Arabic”. Do you see Christians say “look at the Koine Greek” for the Bible. Both Scriptures have been pretty much translated to “near perfection” these days.

It’s the 21st century, we have electric toothbrushes!

But I don’t want to drift of this subject.

According to Islam, Christians are condemned to the “abode of Fire” due to their belief that “God is Christ the Son of Mary” (5:75). The only unpardonable sin in Islam is not acknowledging the Unity of God (The Sin of Shirk) (Which Islam condemns Christians of doing, as I posted in my earlier posts). Since Christians are guilty of this sin their condemnation is assured.

But yet the Qu’ran will also state;
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. – Sura 39:53
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Sura 39:53 forgot to mention the sin of Shirk. It clearly says “Allah forgives ***ALL ***sins”.

Aswell as many verses claiming Christians are saved. ( Sura 5:69) for example states; "Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret. "

But just three verses further in the text it says
Code: 
Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72
I think the Qu’ran sums it up well;

“Let there be no compulsion in Religion; Truth stands out clear from error!” (Sura 2:256)

And The Gospel of John also states “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free” (John 8:32)

Does the truth set you free, my Muslim friend?
 
I just want to add that the definition of shirk is associating partners with Allah and it is the only sin that Allah absolutely will not forgive. According to Islam if you die committing shirk no one can pray for you at all and you are going to hell automatically. They also deny you funeral rites as well.I have been debating shirk with my Muslim friends as well. It doesn’t matter we say that we believe in one God because the Islamic prophet Mohammed taught that Christians are Polytheists because of the Trinity doctrine. The Islamic prophet Mohammed actually taught his followers to give tidings of hellfire when they walked by graves of Polytheists.

When Passing by the Graves of the Polytheists (152)
Salem related that his father said: A Bedouin came to the Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah my father used to maintain the ties of kinship, and he was so, and he was so. So where is he? He said: In Hell-fire. He said: It was as if that disturbed him, so he said: O Messenger of Allah, where, then, is your father? The Messenger of Allah then said: Wherever you pass by the grave of a polytheist give him tidings (171) of Hell-fire. He said: The Bedouin later accepted Islam and said:The Messenger of Allah has given me an assignment. I would not pass by the grave of a Kãfir except that I would give him tidings of Hell-fire.
Footnotes
(171) Allah The Exalted said <> Surah Barã’ah (#9), V. 3

Reporters
At-Tirmidhi said it was comely and Al-Albãni agreed. Al-Albãni said An-Nisã’ee and Ibn Majah also reported it with sound ascription and he included it in The Authentic of Good Sayings

qss.org/archives/asop/152.html
 
Howdy!

Hopefully I can add something helpful to you. There are nuances of the Arabic which a translation won’t be able to capture, however, it is not that difficult to explain what seems to you to be a contradiction.

Shirk is what Muslims call associating partners with the one true God. Claiming that God has a son, for instance, falls under that category.

So does Allah forgive it? Or not? The explanation comes if you continue reading the passage. Allah says, in 39:53 that He forgives all sins. And then right after that it tells the listener to repent to Him before the punishment comes because after that he won’t be helped. In other words, repent before it’s too late. Because Allah does forgive you if you repent. But if you persist in the sin, and you die before repenting, then you don’t get a chance to repent after that. And after a person dies? Even then, some sins might still be forgiven, but the one what won’t be, that’s shirk.

About whether Christians will be “saved” or not, you also need to read the entirety of the ayah, because it further specifies the requirement. Being a Jew, or being a Christian, is not enough to suffice, according to the Qur’an.

5:72 would be a useful one for you:
“They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary,” while the Messiah has said, “O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Indeed, he who associates others with Allah–Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.”
 
Howdy!
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Dia Duit.
Shirk is what Muslims call associating partners with the one true God. Claiming that God has a son, for instance, falls under that category.
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I know what Shirk is, I’ve been studying Islam for awhile now.
So does Allah forgive it? Or not?
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According to this
Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah*** forgives all sins:*** for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. – Sura 39:53
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  • Yes he forgives ALL, which includes the sin of Shirk. This is a non-debatable passage we clearly says he forgives ALL sins.
But then he does not forgive the sin of Shirk;
Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right). – Sura 4:116
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But then in the same Sura he forgives them sin of Shirk.
… Yet they [the Israelites] worshipped the calf even after Clear Signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. – Sura 4:153
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Sura 4:17 says he forgives if sins were done in ignorance, but 4:153 says he forgave them even though they clearly knew what they were doing and worshiped the idol anyway.

It’s a complete contradiction, you cannot even debate this. He rather forgives shirks or not, so which one is it?
About whether Christians will be “saved” or not, you also need to read the entirety of the ayah, because it further specifies the requirement. Being a Jew, or being a Christian, is not enough to suffice, according to the Qur’an.
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Do you even read your own Qu’ran or is this some lame attempt to re-kindle some kind of self-acknowledgement that im reading this wrong?
Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
– Sura 5:69
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But just three verses further in the text it says
Code: 
Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72
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So, are Christians believers or unbelievers? Are they allowed to remain as Christians (knowing they worship Christ) as long as they do what is right, or are they condemned outright for their faith? Do we have to worry or not to worry according to the Qur’an?

Now, the obvious answer that a Muslim would give is that the “true” Christians do not worship Jesus as God. Hence there is no contradiction. But the first verse does not specify that. It only talks about the belief in the existence of God and in the (Judgment of the) Last Day and doing right. Any serious Christian will fall in this category.

Muslims try to save the Qur’an by claiming that any Trinitarian is not a true Christian and hence verse 72 does not apply to them. But the problem is only shifted. Either the contradiction is as above, or, with the shift, the contradiction is with reality. It is historical fact that Christianity has always considered Jesus to be the LORD, to be of the same nature of God.

Therefore, either the Qur’an contradicts itself, or it shows itself very ignorant of historical Christianity.
 
Hi Sister Amy
could you please address why Prophet Mohammed would tell his followers to give tidings of hell to Polytheists? Is this still practiced in Islam today to your knowledge? Thank you
 
Patrick_Joshua said:
I think the evidence I layed out my Muslim friend is pretty much right. Maybe the odd word is wrong, since the original source is Arabic but the message is the same.

This is the usual argument from Muslims is “look at the original Arabic”. I’m pretty sure the English translations of the Qu’ran have not drifted that far away from the original writings. It is probably the same message. We have pretty good translators these days.

Muslims are pretty smart people, you cannot claim “look at the Arabic”. Do you see Christians say “look at the Koine Greek” for the Bible. Both Scriptures have been pretty much translated to “near perfection” these days.

It’s the 21st century, we have electric toothbrushes!

But I don’t want to drift of this subject.

According to Islam, Christians are condemned to the “abode of Fire” due to their belief that “God is Christ the Son of Mary” (5:75). The only unpardonable sin in Islam is not acknowledging the Unity of God (The Sin of Shirk) (Which Islam condemns Christians of doing, as I posted in my earlier posts). Since Christians are guilty of this sin their condemnation is assured.

But yet the Qu’ran will also state;

Sura 39:53 forgot to mention the sin of Shirk. It clearly says “Allah forgives ***ALL ***sins”.

Aswell as many verses claiming Christians are saved. ( Sura 5:69) for example states; "Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret. "

But just three verses further in the text it says
Code: 
Unbelievers are those that say:
"God is the Messiah, the son of Mary." For the Messiah himself said:
"Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord."
He that worships other gods besides God, God will deny him Paradise,
and the fire shall be his home. None shall help the evil-doers.
-- Sura 5:72
I think the Qu’ran sums it up well;

“Let there be no compulsion in Religion; Truth stands out clear from error!” (Sura 2:256)

And The Gospel of John also states “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free” (John 8:32)

Does the truth set you free, my Muslim friend?
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I have noticed that Muslims use the “divertionary” spiel of “You’re reading a bad translation” a LOT when called up on inconsistencies regarding certain passages in the Koran. I guess Muslims have a sort of “Talking Points Memo” like everybody else does. :rolleyes:
 
Hi Petrick
I think she knows that you know the definition of shirk. I think she gave the definition for the benefit of others who might not be familiar with it. Anyway the part of the Quran that you cited where it talks about Allah forgiving shirk actually means Allah will forgive shirk only if you repent and convert to Islam. I heard this explanation from an Islamic scholar.
Peace
 
Maybe one verse abrogates another or one is specific and one is general. Also Islam is belief in God and Muhammad (pbuh) so you cannot discount the Prophets words (hadith) or life (sirah) to explain the verse. Then…
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I really don’t have the time my friend sorry. I could give you a basic answer, but I think you want something a little more detailed which compares the evidence etc. Please check out those links because they will compare with the ‘conflicting’ verses and give more evidences. The Arabic was just an after thought hence the ‘then,’ its the abrogation, specific/general, Prophetic commentary that was my main point. Good luck 🙂
PS: If I do find an hour then I’ll write something.
 
Hi Patrick
I think she knows that you know the definition of shirk. I think she gave the definition for the benefit of others who might not be familiar with it. Anyway the part of the Quran that you cited where it talks about Allah forgiving shirk actually means Allah will forgive shirk only if you repent and convert to Islam. I heard this explanation from an Islamic scholar.
Peace
Reply With Quote
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Verily, Allah*** forgives not ***that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. (Sura 4:48). This Islamic Scholar needs to read his own Qu’ran.

Typical, “oh the Sin of Shirk, can be cleared if you become Muslim”

It clearly states that Allah does not forgive the the sin of Shirk. ( but then it does:confused:)
 
It’s real simple, let me break it down for you.

Just remember, pretending that the truth isn’t there won’t make it go away.

Does Allah forgive شرك shirk? If, and only if you repent before you die.

Many of the first Muslims started their lives as mushrikeen. (مشركين) One prominent Muslim, 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab evern talked how he worshiped idols before he became Muslim. And he was promised Paradise. So… what’s the deal? He repented from his sin, became Muslim when presented with the truth of Islam, and abandoned the shirk. So Allah forigves him.

But there were other people of Makkah who did not embrace Islam, and who persisted in shirk, and who died on shirk–and they are the ones whom Allah says He will not forgive.

So they can’t just keep worshiping their idols and say, well, if I’m really doing a bad thing then Allah will forgive me later. They need to stop. And if they don’t, then they won’t receive forgiveness after they’re dead, not for shirk.

It’s really very simple. If you read these passages, even the ayah right after 39:53, which says Allah forgives all sins, it talks about repentence. Clearly the forgiveness of shirk is dependent upon repentence. So what the ayah you quoted is telling the Muslims is that no matter how evil was something that they did, that they can still repent from it, turn back to Allah and Allah will forgive them.

The text itself is resisting the meaning you’re trying to hoist upon it, as 39:53 is clearly directed to the believers, people who are already Muslims. يا عبادي means “O my slaves!” It’s not talking to anyone who is doing shirk, but only to the people who are already submitting willingly exclusively to Allah. That’s pretty clear by using the word عبد.

But the passages where Allah says he does not forgive shirk, explicitly, did you read the previous ayaat? In fact, 4:48 is coming amid a passage talking to people of the book! Talking to you! To the people who are not Muslim, who have not yet believed in what was sent down–i.e., the Qur’an, Allah tells them to believe! Believe in what Allah sent down because a time of punishment is coming and Allah is not going to forgive their shirk. Unless they repent. Which is how it starts: يا أيّها الذين أُوتوا الكتاب ءامنوا بما نزّلنا “O People who were given the book, believe in what we sent down.”
 
Aydan said:
Hi Sister Amy
could you please address why Prophet Mohammed would tell his followers to give tidings of hell to Polytheists? Is this still practiced in Islam today to your knowledge? Thank you
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Hi Aydan,

I’m sorry but I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I tried a quick search of the Qur’an and didn’t find any instance of that right away, so could you give me an example? Thanks!
 
I’m not, I was just explaining the text. The OP is trying to debate the issue and his argument is flawed. I’m presenting the counter argument, based on an accurate and contextual reading of the text, which I felt necessary to provide and explain.

Hardly preaching. 🙂
 
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