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famdigy
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Isn’t the catholic view that non-Christians will go to heaven if they are good, even if they don’t believe in Christ?
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inJESUS
Guest
rather it is non-Christians might go to heaven if they are good, even if they don’t believe in Christ.
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famdigy
Guest
Can you give more details as to why a non-Christian might not make it to heaven if they are good. Is there any additional clarificaiton given by the church or the bible on this matter?
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inJESUS
Guest
the church does not enumerate reasons nor does it present us with hypothetical situations of those who might and those who might not but leaves things to God’s mercy.
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inJESUS
Guest
Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned’ (Mark 16:15,16).
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6)
The church leaves to God’s mercy…there is difference between someone who never heard of Christianity or never owned a Bible or never knew about Jesus and someone who fully knows and attacks and rejects what Jesus did that is why the church leaves it to God’s mercy as He is the One who knows the hearts and situations of people.
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6)
The church leaves to God’s mercy…there is difference between someone who never heard of Christianity or never owned a Bible or never knew about Jesus and someone who fully knows and attacks and rejects what Jesus did that is why the church leaves it to God’s mercy as He is the One who knows the hearts and situations of people.
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Sam_777
Guest
The whole story is false :dts:.
First, Anglo Saxon Chronicle states that:
“A.D. 685:
The same year died Lothhere, King of Kent; and John was consecrated Bishop of Hexham, where he remained till Wilferth was restored, when John
was translated to York on the death of Bishop Bosa. Wilferth his priest was afterwards consecrated Bishop of York, and John retired to his monastery (21) in the woods of Delta. This year there was in Britain a bloody rain, and milk and butter were turned to blood.”
So that claim of bloody rain can be linked to the death of “Lothhere (King of Kent)” NOT Hussein.
Second, as indicated by LDNCatholic, Hussein died in 680AD NOT 685AD, according to these references (1,2,3).
First, Anglo Saxon Chronicle states that:
“A.D. 685:
The same year died Lothhere, King of Kent; and John was consecrated Bishop of Hexham, where he remained till Wilferth was restored, when John
was translated to York on the death of Bishop Bosa. Wilferth his priest was afterwards consecrated Bishop of York, and John retired to his monastery (21) in the woods of Delta. This year there was in Britain a bloody rain, and milk and butter were turned to blood.”
So that claim of bloody rain can be linked to the death of “Lothhere (King of Kent)” NOT Hussein.
Second, as indicated by LDNCatholic, Hussein died in 680AD NOT 685AD, according to these references (1,2,3).
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pnewton
Guest
The Catholic view is that they may or may not. We consider this issue one that rests with God alone as the sole judge of all. We trust that a God who wills the salvation of all, in ways known only to himself may achieve their salvation.
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neploho
Guest
I guess I feel like the sky raining blood would be better recorded that an obscure line from some old Anglo text. Did the Sunni record this event? Are there records of debates between the Sunni and the Shia as to the cause of this “blood rain”. More than that the Anglo line records more than the Hadith: that is food also turning to blood. That is not the same event being recorded.
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GraceDK
Guest
No, actually not.
Jesus says: “No one comes to the Father, except through Me”. That means that if you live and die without having accepted the atoment death of Christ on the Cross, who payed the penalty for your sins, then you will not enter Heaven. Your own sins and the penalty for them will stand in the way.
Christ alone is our justification and sanctification. He washes us pure… makes us Holy through His own Love and Grace. Nothing we can do can get us a seat in heaven, except for the acceptance of the Son of God that willingly laid down His life for our salvation,…just like Abraham loved God so much he would give his most beloved son, so it is said about our Father in Heaven: “For so God loved the world (you and me), that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have eternal life.”
What the Church has written at a council can never be a contradiction of the direct words of God in Scripture, so when the Church humbly says: “We dont know the state of the souls of certain people… they may be saved” it is due to humility and in consideration of certain circumstances but our serious guideline is that Christ is the Door to Heaven.
If people have heard the Gospel and they have rejected it, then there is little hope for them. If they have never heard the Gospel in their life, then the guidance from their conscience is very important… however, to choose ones own flawed conscience over the way of Christ deliberately is a very dangeous thing. The wages of sin is death… so who can stand the test?
Of course guilt and knowlege go hand in hand. Yet no one is without conscience and today most people have heard the Good News of Salvation.
Then there is a mystical tradition in the Church that says Jesus will appear to the dying sinner at least at the moment of death to ask: “Who do you choose?” This has happend to quite a few people, however it is not dogma but a very special grace, so I would not count on it.
The Bible has said clearly: Believe and you shall be saved.
Christ is the only mediator, the One who reconciles us to Himself.
If you study the Old Testament you will see the expectation of this kind of Messiah: Eg: “He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was put upon Him and by His wounds we are healed…”(Isaiah 53)
If you have not studied the many Old Testament prophesies about Jesus, describing His divinity and His atoning death in striking detail, then you must do it. These prophesies were written hundreds of years before Jesus of Nazareth walked on the earth. Its amazing.
Peace, and keep searching for the truth. The one who knocks sincerly… truly the Door will be opened to him.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
The sky rained blood because Hussain went straight to hell. Islam is a false religion. Whatever is not of Christ does not exist.
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GraceDK
Guest
Why? because they have not been reconsiled with the Father through the blood of Christ. Its that simple. You reject salvation, it does not matter how good you are. You are not innocent, even if you feel you are doing pretty good, you have made blunders, hurt people, hurt your self, been proud, lying, cheating, fornicating… whatever. You are a sinner, who needs not only forgiveness but also that the penalty of your sin is payed by someone who can do that on behalf of you. The only one who matches the criteria is God Himself, the only one who is wholly good, pure, holy and eternal, and in His Unfathomable LOVE He has done it. Now it’s up to you to reject the salvation or apply it to your life. You choose life or death, the door to life (Christ) or the door to perdition. Christ is holding out His hand to you, He wishes everyone be saved…
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Guyonthestreet
Guest
By what authority do YOU declare that Hussain is in hell??
The Catholic Church itself does not state who she thinks is in hell, based on the abiding truth that only GOD can judge and noone can know HIS judgement for any other person.
For you to call it that someone went straight to Hell is shocking. People like you do your church a great disservice.
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GraceDK
Guest
So … if we know nothing at all, then why not abolish the Sacred Scriptures?
We know something about a great many people, like Judas Iscariot and about many saints who we claim are in heaven based on their life.
If now we see a person who is openly a rebel against Christ and a sinner till the day he dies, never having confessed or repented, then we have indications that this guy probably didnt make it. The same with Hitler who left no letter of remorse when he shot himself after having caused the death of millions.
Lets not make the Gospel void because of one humble statement in a counsil document. None of us have any right to say there is salvation outside of Christ. He did not leave that up to us and He was very clear. “He who rejects me, rejects the One who sent Me”.
Ps. For you: www.catholicsforisrael.com if you are interested in a healthy Catholic view of the Jews and Israel instead of the substitution-theory that you seem to advocate which is against actual Church teachings…
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Guyonthestreet
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Regardless of what we know, or think we know about anyone, the final judgement is God’s and God’s alone and NOONE should declare anyone in Hell. Judge not lest you be judged, eh??? Period.
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Guyonthestreet
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PS - my sig is a quote from John Salza, a wonderful catholic apologist, author and broadcaster on EWTN. He’s catholic enough for me thanks.
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GraceDK
Guest
I see, so one apologet will define the truth about God’s covenant people for you without further investigation of the Church’s deep and beautiful teachings about the Jews as well as her recogntion of Israel.
Long live ignorance I guess…
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Guyonthestreet
Guest
The presumptions loaded in the above is incredible. What makes you think I havent conducted YEARS of investigation and study. Because I havent come to the same conclusions as you, so I mustnt have, or I must be wrong
This is off topic so Im not discussing it further in this thread. If you want to debate further, start a new thread.
Back on topic - noone can judge who is in Hell only GOD, so I stand by my original point, catholics like OTCA making such announcements when even the Catholic Church herself doesnt presume to do as much, does a great dishonor and disservice to the Catholic Church. OTCA makes pronouncements even the catholic church and its magisterum doesnt dare to and she has no right to do that. None what so ever.
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GraceDK
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I dont presume anything about your education. Chill okay. You are the one who said you relied on an apologet. I think thats a bit too little. Anyway… as you say, its not about what you study or conclude but about what Scripture and Church says, and both say the substitution-theory is an error. I thought it would be helpful to know especially if you, like me, would like to bring the Good News about the Jewish Messiah to the Jewish people. Nothing makes them stay away from the Church more effectively than the substitution-theory. But you are right… this is of topic.The presumptions loaded in the above is incredible. What makes you think I havent conducted YEARS of investigation and study. Because I havent come to the same conclusions as you, so I mustnt have, or I must be wrong
This is off topic so Im not discussing it further in this thread. If you want to debate further, start a new thread.
Back on topic - noone can judge who is in Hell only GOD, so I stand by my original point, catholics like OTCA making such announcements when even the Catholic Church herself doesnt presume to do as much, does a great dishonor and disservice to the Catholic Church. OTCA makes pronouncements even the catholic church and its magisterum doesnt dare to and she has no right to do that. None what so ever.
I think we can both agree that both saying a muslim is in hell or in heaven is too say too much.
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cerad
Guest
Indeed. Contrast this with the events that occurred after the death of Jesus. Earthquakes, temple vandalism, darkness at mid day, zombies etc. All meticulously documented for prosperity. Oh, wait a minute, I guess people did forget to write this stuff down. Never mind.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Hold on a minute here. Stop saying “even the Catholic church doesn’t agree with me…” is a totally ridiculous statement. It is written in the Scriptures that if you DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus Christ, ESPECIALLY one who worships OTHER GODS, you will be cast into Gehenna, which BTW is hell. I feel and others will agree that Islam is a religion that is pure evil and that is not of Christ. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this one out…The presumptions loaded in the above is incredible. What makes you think I havent conducted YEARS of investigation and study. Because I havent come to the same conclusions as you, so I mustnt have, or I must be wrong
This is off topic so Im not discussing it further in this thread. If you want to debate further, start a new thread.
Back on topic - noone can judge who is in Hell only GOD, so I stand by my original point, catholics like OTCA making such announcements when even the Catholic Church herself doesnt presume to do as much, does a great dishonor and disservice to the Catholic Church. OTCA makes pronouncements even the catholic church and its magisterum doesnt dare to and she has no right to do that. None what so ever.
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