The Slaughtering of Animals in Factories. Moral dilemmas in the modern world

[vern_humphrey]

Ella:

Well, Vern, what do you think about using frogs as baseballs for a game, or killing kittens for fun? Is this moral? Or is it sin?

Are you accusing me of doing that?

I’d like to see your proof if you are.

Ella:

If it’s not moral, then why not?

It is as immoral as accusing others by implication.

 

[Ella]

vern humphrey:

Are you accusing me of doing that?

I’d like to see your proof if you are.

No I’m not accusing you of doing that. What made you think I was accusing you? I’m asking your opinion. I posted about seeing boys play baseball with frogs as the balls, and hearing them brag about killing kittens. I wanted your opinion - is it moral to do these things? If it’s not moral, why is it not moral?

 

[Pug]

I do not know the precise extent to which I may quote for this purpose, if it is too extensive, please tell me. Here are portions of the relevant passage in Living a Christian Life, by Germain Grisez, Vol 2 of The Way of the Lord Jesus (a seminary text for moral theology). This is not in the public domain to my knowledge:

Since animals are part of the subpersonal creation over which humans have dominion, they may be used in any way which truly and justly serves the basic goods of persons.

He then lists many things which can be okay, like food, medical experimentation, art materials, games and sports, etc. Naturally, he requires the action to pass all other tests of morality. He then says,

a person may kill them, harm them, and/or inflict pain on them to the extent either necessary for the purpose or unavoidable without imposing significant burdens on human beings.

He then discusses waste in use of animals, which is at a higher standard than with non-sentient things, and cruelty, and mentions that we ought to protect animals. Also,

some feeding and slaughter of animals for meat misuses them because that meat is not part of a healthy diet and/or because the agricultural capacity used in producing meat could be used more efficiently to provide more people with and adequate vegetarian diet.

Lastly, he mentions that it is an abuse for a man to hunt and kill animals, “for mere self-magnification, not for food or even for sport involving real skill and, perhaps, fellowship.”

Also, I checked out the Summa Contra Gentiles (by St. Thomas Aquinas). He helpfully points to a scripture reference which we do not currently have on the thread (unless I missed it, highly possible, if so, I apologize):

6 "If you chance to come upon a bird’s nest, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting upon the young or upon the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;
7 you shall let the mother go, but the young you may take to yourself; that it may go well with you, and that you may live long.

If anyone requests, I can type out what I have from the SCG; it is short.

I plan on answering you (Stanley) after lunch. This post was just quotes that some might find helpful.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ella:

No I’m not accusing you of doing that. What made you think I was accusing you? I’m asking your opinion. I posted about seeing boys play baseball with frogs as the balls, and hearing them brag about killing kittens. I wanted your opinion - is it moral to do these things? If it’s not moral, why is it not moral?

What did you think my opinion was going to be?

Simply to ask such a question is an imputation of guilt – how would you like it if someone on this forum asked you, “what do you think about using children as sex objects” would you not be offended? Would you not consdier this a slur cast on you – a pretense that you were a person who would approve of such a thing?

 

[Pug]

I’m not sure what the specific Christian men that you refer to were doing while hunting ducks and not eating the ducks. I cannot speak to their particular. Let’s hope they were on the up and up!

I believe that there is value in learning and practicing how to hunt and how to handle yourself in the wilderness. However, if one kid says to another, “I dare you to go kill a duck,” and the kid goes to kill a duck for that purpose, that is wrong. It is emotion, and not reason, that lead to the kid killing the duck. Emotion is not a reason to act. (I assume the kid does it so as to not feel stupid).

Maybe it depends on what is “sport”. There is cockfighting and there is deer hunting. The ability to hunt deer efficiently is a useful skill in controling deer populations. If you have ever driven a highway and seen about 12 dead deer in the guardrails along your trip, you can appreciate that. Skill or population control are reasons to act.

I doubt “showing off”, as I understand it, is a reason to act. It is against the virtue of humility.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pug:

I’m not sure what the specific Christian men that you refer to were doing while hunting ducks and not eating the ducks. I cannot speak to their particular. Let’s hope they were on the up and up!

The post in question is so full of errors (from ducks with “bullet wounds” to “aiming” shotguns, to hunters not eating the ducks they bag), it’s clear that it’s a product of imagination, not of actual observation of real hunters and hunting.

 

[stanley123]

Pug:

Lastly, he mentions that it is an abuse for a man to hunt and kill animals, “for mere self-magnification, not for food or even for sport involving real skill and, perhaps, fellowship.”.

“some feeding and slaughter of animals for meat misuses them because that meat is not part of a healthy diet and/or because the agricultural capacity used in producing meat could be used more efficiently to provide more people with and adequate vegetarian diet.”
These quotes seem to make sense to me. I would try to avoid extremes on one side or another of this issue.

 

[stanley123]

vern humphrey:

What did you think my opinion was going to be?

Simply to ask such a question is an imputation of guilt –

My personal opinion is that Vern is correct here. He is not advocating this type of unfocused cruel activity (mentioned by Ella) at all. Also, Vern informs us that hunters generally eat what they kill, this is a completely different situation from what Ella was talking about.

 

[Ella]

vern humphrey:

What did you think my opinion was going to be?

Simply to ask such a question is an imputation of guilt – how would you like it if someone on this forum asked you, “what do you think about using children as sex objects” would you not be offended? Would you not consdier this a slur cast on you – a pretense that you were a person who would approve of such a thing?

I see your point! I guess it came off as a ‘So have you stopped beating your wife’ kind of question, and that’s not what I meant. I think perhaps hunters and those against factory farming aren’t that far off in opinion.

 

[Al_Masetti]

All three volumes of Germain Grisez’s series on Moral Theology are available from Franciscan Press. Just visit their Web site and click on Moral Theology. $35 each.

Amazon has some also.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ella:

I see your point! I guess it came off as a ‘So have you stopped beating your wife’ kind of question, and that’s not what I meant. I think perhaps hunters and those against factory farming aren’t that far off in opinion.

Thank you.

Hunters are the people who are responsible for the continued existance of wildlife in this country – they pay taxes (the Pittman-Robinson tax) to buy and maintain habitat, conduct studies and restocking wildlife where it has vanished and so on.

When I was a boy in Arkansas, there were no turkeys or bear (although at one time Arkansas had so many bears it was called “The Bear State.”) Now we have abundent wildlife – including a flock of turkeys that walks through my yard every so often, and several bears inhabit the valley where my farm is located.

 

[seeker63]

Well, there are hunters and there are hunters. My father and grandfather were the more respectful kind, but they knew others who were just jerks, who’d go out to the woods, get drunk, and be a menace.

This one guy used to buy these expensive German rifles (my dad called them “elephant guns”) . One weekend he and his buddies went out to a lease my father operated, parked on one side of a power highline right-of-way, and spent the day trying to get their rifles sighted in for deer season. They got drunk and started sighting in on a tree across the right-of-way and began shooting at it. This was a big tree, BTW. They shot at it all day long until they finally cut it down. My father was disgusted by this and thought it a needless waste.

 

[vern_humphrey]

seeker63:

Well, there are hunters and there are hunters. My father and grandfather were the more respectful kind, but they knew others who were just jerks, who’d go out to the woods, get drunk, and be a menace.

This one guy used to buy these expensive German rifles (my dad called them “elephant guns”) . One weekend he and his buddies went out to a lease my father operated, parked on one side of a power highline right-of-way, and spent the day trying to get their rifles sighted in for deer season. They got drunk and started sighting in on a tree across the right-of-way and began shooting at it. This was a big tree, BTW. They shot at it all day long until they finally cut it down. My father was disgusted by this and thought it a needless waste.

Your father should have called the sheriff. People shooting and handling firearms while drunk is a matter he would have dealth with.

 

[Santa_Cruz]

HelpingHands:

From the Catholic Catechism:

**Respect for the integrity of creation **

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.[194] Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.[195]

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.[196] Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.[197] Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice, if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

Well that settles the point for me.