The Slaughtering of Animals in Factories. Moral dilemmas in the modern world

[springbreeze]

stanley123:

I desire peace and quiet, because I don;t get it now, with the dogs barking all night long. I was hoping that heaven might be a little better than it is here, with the neighbor’s dogs growling and barking and threatening to attack me at any time when I walk in the neighborhood. And the dogs biting at my legs, when I go for a bike ride?

Apparently, you and Michelle Arnold are hoping for animals in heaven. I don;t see how this could be. First of all, would it be all of the animals, or just some of them? And which ones would be chosen if it were not all of them? I don’t know why anyone would want pitbull dogs in heaven. Haven’t they attacked innocent children? I know that some cities ban the pitbull dogs. Now you and Michelle Arnold are hoping to find pit bull dogs in heaven? This doesn’t make much sense to me, really.

Dear friend

The state of humanity dictates it doesn’t make much sense for any of us sinners to be in heaven either, but it is by God’s grace, forgiveness and mercy that any single one of us may find ourselves in heaven.

Even if someone should not like dogs, that doesn’t mean they won’t be in heaven, every creature of every kind is possible to be found in heaven. People don’t like murderers, adulterors, fornicators, theives, etc even to their own hypocrisy, but by God’s forgiveness, mercy and grace all of those people may be found in heaven. Who can be saved? None. It is only by the perfect sacrifice Christ Jesus, that any are saved.

It makes no sense for any human to go to heaven, no sense at all, we are such weak sinners, it only makes sense in context with the Passion of Christ Jesus and His death and ressurrection.

By the way, the Peace of Christ Jesus is available to the soul now, it is not a peace the world can offer and it is a peace that is found even in the midst of trial. If you desire peace of heart, then desire to give it yourself in love and kindness to all people and to all beings and forget about your own self, His peace is born out of suffering and love, then maybe you will have peace yourself, yes even in this life, ‘My peace I leave you, My peace I give you.’

As for Michelle Arnold’s standpoint on this, I do not know what it is, so you will have to take up with her whatever she says about this as you have so clearly taken up with me, my standpoint on this.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[aurora77]

Dang, Vern, you’re starting to sound like the poster child for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement that was being discussed in another thread. I give up, you win. I’m pathetic, I shouldn’t be occupying any space whatsoever on this planet, I should never use any resources. I shouldn’t have any opinions whatsoever on environmental issues or animal welfare issues b/c I don’t deer hunt. You’re better than me. Happy now?

 

[seeker63]

Vern, I’ll repeat myself. I’ll explain it again.I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.

1-Some trolls on this thread are dismissing those who don’t agree with them as wackos, whose beliefs are not even worthy of consideration. And I’m apparently one of them. I’m on the defensive here against these trolls.

2-If the Church was as hateful and God as legalistic and merciless as these trolls would have us believe, I would not want to believe in either that God or that Church. But I think the trolls are wrong.

3-I think there are people on this thread who are just trying to rattle other people’s cages, anger them, show off their supposed erudition, fuel their own arrogance, and just generally be nuisances, as in the definition I provided above of “troll.”

4-As far as the matter of how I treat others’s opinions, these trolls are not stating opinions. They state their positions are facts, are hard and fast doctrines of the Church, and that anyone who suggests anything contrary is a heretic in danger of damnation. Of course, that’s an easy way brush aside arguments.

 

[coyote]

Pug:

Fergal,

I agree with you, as I said below. I have the same experience. Perhaps humans and animals are seen as equals, in some sense, or in most senses. Thus, what goes for one, goes for the other. If you can kill an animal to relieve suffering, so too with a human (a tiny baby), etc.

Are you saying that aborted infants in the womb are “suffering” and we are doing them a kindness by killing them???!!!

 

[coyote]

batteddy:

Of course they can “feel” pain and happiness. Those are just bio-chemical electrical reactions in the physical organ of the brain!

That does NOT mean they have an immortal spiritual soul or are conscious of their feelings or Self…or conscious of their consciousness of their feelings, etc…something that cannot be derived from any purely material explanation.

Animals, if there is a justifiable good use for people, may be slaughtered or even made to feel pain.

What is wrong is to be cruel purely for the sake of being unnecessarily cruel. But even this is not wrong because the animals are actually conscious (which they aren’t) but because of the depravity that would be involved in a human doing such an act for some sort of sick pleasure on their part.

Also, as Pope Benedict said, the use of animals for human purposes must not promote a materialistic or consumeristic culture. Its not that its intrinsically wrong to genetically modify animals or keep them in tight quarters to grow them or even to break a calf’s legs to make its meat better IF there is a justifiable human use for such things. Whats wrong is not that such things are cruel (because the animals are not conscious) but that such things are unneccessary and NOT justifiable. They are decadent luxeries. Materialistic, consumeristic ventures that exploit our stewardship over nature and turn it into some sort of gluttony. Its not an “animal rights” issue with the Pope, but a stewardship and materialism issue.

Your insensitivity is showing.

Give me an example of “justifiable” cruely.

Animals are not conscious? What archaic thought rot.

 

[coyote]

batteddy:

You aren’t understanding what I mean by conciousness. Aborted babies may not have developed enough THOUGHT or SENSE organs…but they have a soul, and are human life.

Because they are programmed to do such things. They defend their young to the death to pass on their genes. But it has nothing to do with a soul. That is a completely material program in their physical brains. A soul has nothing to do with that in animals or even humans, necessarily. They rescue humans because of similar motives. Perhaps the humans are the ones who care for them. This is not a spiritual issue.

Animals are conscious of their environment, so to speak, but they aren’t conscious of their consciousness, or conscious of their consciousness of their consciousness etc. An irreducible soul is needed for such things. There can be no “evidence” for it even in humans. Animals are like highly complex robots. They are a wonderful organic creation of God, but ultimately they are sort of like organic robots. Pre-programmed, though taking in data through sensors to effect their actions, and ultimately unconscious and unsouled.

You speak as from a position of authority. Are you a veterinary physiologist? What empiracle proof can you offer to support your hypothesis on the consciousness and/or self awareness of animals?

 

[coyote]

stanley123:

I desire peace and quiet, because I don;t get it now, with the dogs barking all night long. I was hoping that heaven might be a little better than it is here, with the neighbor’s dogs growling and barking and threatening to attack me at any time when I walk in the neighborhood. And the dogs biting at my legs, when I go for a bike ride?

Apparently, you and Michelle Arnold are hoping for animals in heaven. I don;t see how this could be. First of all, would it be all of the animals, or just some of them? And which ones would be chosen if it were not all of them? I don’t know why anyone would want pitbull dogs in heaven. Haven’t they attacked innocent children? I know that some cities ban the pitbull dogs. Now you and Michelle Arnold are hoping to find pit bull dogs in heaven? This doesn’t make much sense to me, really.

Having worked in the veterinary field as a licensed technician I have experienced more aggression from cocker spaniels and small poodle and terrier mixes than from pit bull type dogs.

 

[coyote]

How many events in Christ’s life pointedly involved animals? Didn’t the Holy Spirit appear in the form of a dove? Since this is the case, can it be that animals are inconsequential to the Glory or plans of God?

 

[coyote]

stanley123:

In the apology forum Michelle Arnold has written:
“As animals are part of the “visible universe,” it seems possible that they too might share “their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.” It might be possible that God might also re-create those animals who have been a pleasure and comfort to man in his earthly journey. We don’t know in this life, but it is something for which we can hope.”
Apparently she says we can hope for animals in heaven???
Personally, I would hope not. I have been trying to sleep at night, and the next door dog is barking all the time, keeping me awake. Also, it is hard for me to concentrate on what I am reading with all this barking going on. Further, if I am coming back home, as I am walking to the door, the dog barks viciously and looks like he is about to attack. Further, I have been severely bitten in the leg by a dog as I was riding my bicycle. I wonder if it would be better to stay in a Limbo without vicious animals, rather than to be put in a heaven with this type of vicious animals, ready to attack you at any time.
I notice that Michelle says that we can hope for these animals to be heaven? I wonder if this signals that the RCC is now changing its mind on whether or not animals will be in heaven. They have changed so many other teachings, such as on slavery, or on capital punishment, or on what is required for annulments.

Maybe part of purgatory for you will be making peace with this dog.

 

[Adonis33]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Everything that lives and moves and has a being has so in God and therefore has a soul. No soul on earth is like that of the human soul, the human is created in the Image of God, set apart as the height of creation. This height of creation, man, is truly made in the Image of God, we were given much so as to exercise the Image of God within us, to love each other, to love God and to love creation and be stewards of it as God is Supreme Steward and Creator of all of Creation, so we partook in His likeness, partaking in creating and stewardship, so as the uncreated, the pure Spirit, God, is shepherd of the spiritual created and materially created, the spiritual created is shepherd of the spiritually created and the materially created and as such the life of the spiritual created soul is intimately united to God in the created and in the spiritual. The height of creation that betrayed God and the rest of creation at the fall and all of creation now suffers the fall in this broken world because of Man’s sin such was the partaking in man’s stewardship of God’s creation, that sin of pride that man himslef would like to be as God knowing good and evil. Well we can truly say, we now know good and evil in every aspect of our lives, but truly we are not our own god.

What St Thomas has concluded by intellecual deduction is that souls created in the Image of God can in, by and through Christ Jesus go to heaven,. because their soul is spiritual and animals because they possess a material soul do not go to heaven.

I disagree and I am free to disagree because even though St Thomas concluded this, it is not taught carte blanche infallible as Church Doctrine.

I disagree for many reasons, one of them being that all creatures lived in union with God in, by and through Man’s union with God and union with God is heaven. When man as steward fell from union with God through sin, so did all of creation, since Christ Jesus reconciles all things in, by and through Himself all things are reconciled to God and this must be completed by man’s return to God and repentance, by man partaking in his own salvation and therefore as steward reconciling within himself all that is entrusted to him by God.

Animals have no free-will, they worship God by their very being, but their nature is broken even though they are capable of no sin, it is ourselves that are responible for the salvation of all that is entrusted to us, our own souls, each other and all of the created material world of which none is possible without God’s grace.

Christ Jesus is not simply Saviour of humanity, He is Saviour of the World, of all creation, He is the Light of the World. Our betrayal of this was most profound, not simply because we brought about our own demise, but also the demise of all creation and ultimately offended God. We in this original sin, rejected all that was gifted to us, we fractured our relationship with God, with each other and with creation, of which prior to the fall all was most intimately woven in Love with the Creator, our Truine God.

Our stewardship may not be seen merely as a hired hand, we are the shepherds of what we have been set over and we must not abandon it. Our responsibility is not merely to save our own souls, but those of other people by prayer and sacrifice as well as the whole of creation. If this is the case, and I believe it to be so, then even though those souls of animals and all other creatures are of material value, their value exists in our stewardship and the responsibility that lies therein and by God’s grace our merit will win for us, not only our own personal salvation, but the salvation of others by God’s grace and the salvation of the whole of creation.

That is the weight of sin, that is what our Lord bore, the Salvation of the World, the world upon Himself in one glorious, blessed and brutal Cross.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

You cannot back this up with any Catholic theological work.

 

[stanley123]

coyote:

Having worked in the veterinary field as a licensed technician I have experienced more aggression from cocker spaniels and small poodle and terrier mixes than from pit bull type dogs.

However, according to
(Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. .Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998 JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.) ,
. “Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996…[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998.”
Why do some Catholics now want to have either pitbull dogs or Rotweiler dogs in heaven? I personally hope that the RCC will not change its teaching on this.
According to:
dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite
There is a dog bite epidemic in the United States. There are almost 5 million victims annually – about 2% of the entire population. 800,000 need medical attention. 1,000 per day need treatment in hospital emergency rooms. Between 15 and 20 die per year. Most of the victims who receive medical attention are children, half of whom are bitten in the face.

 

[seeker63]

Why would an animal in heaven necessarily be a danger or aggressive? Wouldn’t we all be behaving in a kind manner, glorifying God? I certainly hope my worst characteristics don’t make it through the pearly gates.

 

[stanley123]

Getting back to the thread - if people are concerned about the inhumane treatment of animals, why not become vegetarian - if not 100%, at least as much as possible - give up eating meat… Another thing, is that you should try to raise your own animals, such as chickens or pigs and when you or your family must eat a bit of meat, you would slaughter these animals humanely (as humanely as it would be possible), and at least you would know that they had been treated humanely during their lifetime. In any event, there should be concern for education in the vegetarian way, if not 100% vegetarian, there should be an effort made to convince people of how healthful it is to eat as much vegetables as possible, and of course, I am including fruits, whole grains, and nuts. Such a diet rich in fruits and veggies will be high in fiber and low in fat, which are factors known to improve cardiovascular health. For the nutirional, ethical, environmental, social, and religious motivation of vegetarianism, please see the online encyclopedia, wikipedia at:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

 

[Al_Masetti]

God is Infinite… He is INFINITY itself…

We humans are extremely finite…

[We only have three dimensions - how primitive - God has an infinite number of dimensions… If we only existed in one dimension, how would be explain or describe some being with three dimensions? And, in turn, how would a three-dimensional creature explain a being with infinite dimensions?]

So how do we finite-ians decide what THE INFINITE is allowed to do or not do… or admit to Heaven or not admit to Heaven.

DeStefano’s book, “A Travel Guide to Heaven” makes for interesting reading. And it is scripturally based. Worth the read. A useful tool in this discussion. He talks about animals…

 

[springbreeze]

Adonis33:

You cannot back this up with any Catholic theological work.

Dear friend

Thank you for your one single sentence to slam what I have said and I say to you , you cannot back up what you say with any Catholic work either, because it has not been fully addressed by the Catholic Church, further to this an in-depth study of Sacred Scripture will reveal our stewardship, will reveal our responsibility for ourselves, for each other and for the whole of creation we are set over.

Christ Jesus is the Saviour of the World, the Light of the World and all things are reconciled in Him and this is also is scriptually held.

God is Creator and Steward, ‘I am the Good Shepherd’ We are not abandoned, if we were we would perish. We are in the Image of God, to be in His likeness and so we are to be the good shepherds also, to each other and for all creation, this is our stewardship.

Friend, I don’t claim to be a theologian, I’m not. It’s just common sense to me and glaringly obvious. I am convicted to what I am convicted to and you are convicted to what you are convicted to by the power of the Holy Spirit. None of it is error as the Church has not spoekn definitively on this, however it has said we are to be good stewards of God’s Creation and no matter how much people on this forum huff and puff about it, they cannot escape their stewardship and they will be held accountable for it to God.

I’ve gone over and over this time and time again in post after post and it seems to me people are just looking for excuses to be poor and lazy stewards of creation.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Pug]

stanley123:

Getting back to the thread - if people are concerned about the inhumane treatment of animals, why not become vegetarian - if not 100%, at least as much as possible - give up eating meat… Another thing, is that you should try to raise your own animals, such as chickens or pigs

For most of us, this is not possible. It is illegal to do it in most cities. Even if you have room in your garage or next to it, no rabbits can be raised for slaughter. I say rabbits because they are not a noise issue. The vast majority of people cannot do this by ordinance, unless I’ve just lived in places with odd laws?

 

[stanley123]

Pug:

For most of us, this is not possible. It is illegal to do it in most cities… The vast majority of people cannot do this by ordinance, unless I’ve just lived in places with odd laws?

Right, this would be possible in countryside areas for the most part. In any case, still, if you are concerned about the issue of pain in slaughterhouses, I don’t see why you do not spend a little more time reflecting and sharing with us on the value of a vegetarian diet. If you cannot go 100% vegetarian, why not cut back on meat products as much as possible. Like I said, it has been shown that a diet rich in fruits and veggies will be high in fiber and low in fat, which are factors known to improve cardiovascular health. Please see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

 

[Pug]

stanley123:

I don’t see why you do not spend a little more time reflecting and sharing with us on the value of a vegetarian diet. If you cannot go 100% vegetarian

I’ve been medically ordered on a low fiber diet. I have increased my meat intake as a result. I used to eat a diet heavy in vegetables, but I cannot digest them these days. I’m often bad, and still eat them, because I like them very much. I can cook Vedic food (vegan) and often it does not bother me, but my family will not eat this (except in lent, which is when I have traditionally served it).

Of course, the switch to meat has made eating cheaper. However, some days I look at meat or some other mushy, anti-crisp item and I rebel and want to order a spinach salad. I did that a few months ago and paid the price.:crying:

So I guess I’m really not in the market for switching back toward how I used to eat, even if it is evironmentally sound. My vegetable garden is now weeds, except for the tomatoes, which keep coming back, and the leeks, which are indestructible. Yes, I suppose I could be more on top of it, prepare two meals for each meal and everything, but honestly, that isn’t going to happen with me. I’m lucky to do the things that I do do.

I guess I’m down today. Sorry.

 

[springbreeze]

Pug:

I’m lucky to do the things that I do do.

I guess I’m down today. Sorry.

Dear friend

No need to be sorry, it sounds like you’ve had an awful time. I’ll keep your health in my prayers.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Fox]

Pug
It is ok to eat meat, dairy, and eggs and all just try your best to find kosher foods or try your best to find out if the animal needlessly suffered. Free range and organic meats and dairies are possibly the best type. A few calls on the packaging could help you out.