The So-Called Unity of the Catholic Church

[Truthstalker]

I wrote this in March in response to someone:

All told, the rancor and theological divisiveness within the Catholic Church is far greater than that within Protestants. You have a superficial unity. Yet you claim to be one. Pelosi, animistic syncretists in Central America and dissident Catholics of all stripes and you drink from the same cup. Doesn’t that strike YOU as problematic?

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Now we see the spectacle of the head of Notre Dame, a Catholic priest, ordering campus police to arrest Catholic priests protesting the invitation and honoring of Obama. I note that what ND is doing is absolutely contrary to Catholic teaching and instruction. How can you claim to be one? There seems to be widespread disregard for official Church teaching and discipline (which, to this observer, is never enforced).

Notre Dame, premier Catholic institution. Notre Dame, honorer of Obama. The deep divisions within Catholicism are sharply shown to the world, and the Catholic leadership does little if anything about it.

Catholics point to divisions between Protestants, but it is nothing in comparison to the superficial unity among Catholics.

 

[NotWorthy]

While it is sad that Notre Dame is going through with this farce (I have purchased my last ND shirt/hat and watched my last game ever…), it does represent a problem among those that claim to be the faithful.

There is a big difference, though, Truthstalker.

Notre Dame is not saying we should lift the ban on abortion. They are just honoring someone who happens to be very pro-abortion.

The division that is often brought up regarding Protestant Faiths is a division of doctrines. Is baptism necessary? infant baptism? etc.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wrote this in March in response to someone:

---

Now we see the spectacle of the head of Notre Dame, a Catholic priest, ordering campus police to arrest Catholic priests protesting the invitation and honoring of Obama. I note that what ND is doing is absolutely contrary to Catholic teaching and instruction. How can you claim to be one? There seems to be widespread disregard for official Church teaching and discipline (which, to this observer, is never enforced).

Notre Dame, premier Catholic institution. Notre Dame, honorer of Obama. The deep divisions within Catholicism are sharply shown to the world, and the Catholic leadership does little if anything about it.

Catholics point to divisions between Protestants, but it is nothing in comparison to the superficial unity among Catholics.

Truthstalker-

The situation at Notre Dame points out the sad truth that many people who CALL themselves Catholic are not Catholic in their beliefs.

I think it’s time we starting hearing the truth from our pulpits:

Abortion is murder.
Artificial Birth Control is intrinsically evil.
Homosexuality is a sin.
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Women cannot be priests.
The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
Confession and absolution are required for those who have committed mortal sin.

If you don’t like these things, there’s the door. A Protestant church down the street will be happy to have you.

Cafeteria Catholicism is a cancer affecting the health of the entire body.

May God send us holy bishops and priests who know the truth and aren’t afraid to speak it.

Finally, it is ironic that you claim that Catholics do not have unity in their adherence to a single set of beliefs. When Catholics pick and choose what they believe and will or won’t accept, it is considered a problem. When Protestants do the same, it is considered normal.

In fact, isn’t that how most of your denominations got started?

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

Truthstalker-

The situation at Notre Dame points out the sad truth that many people who CALL themselves Catholic are not Catholic in their beliefs.

I think it’s time we starting hearing the truth from our pulpits:

Abortion is murder.
Artificial Birth Control is intrinsically evil.
Homosexuality is a sin.
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Women cannot be priests.
The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
Confession and absolution are required for those who have committed mortal sin.

If you don’t like these things, there’s the door. A Protestant church down the street will be happy to have you.

Cafeteria Catholicism is a cancer affecting the health of the entire body.

May God send us holy bishops and priests who know the truth and aren’t afraid to speak it.

Finally, it is ironic that you claim that Catholics do not have unity in their adherence to a single set of beliefs. When Catholics pick and choose what they believe and will or won’t accept, it is considered a problem. When Protestants do the same, it is considered normal.

In fact, isn’t that how most of your denominations got started?

AMEN TO THAT!!!

“In fact, isn’t that how most of your denominations got started”

 

[TobyLue]

“In fact, isn’t that how most of your denominations got started”

I would change this slightly to"how **ALL **denominations", KIM that the CC is NOT a denomination but THE CHURCH.

 

[TobyLue]

Catholics point to divisions between Protestants, but it is nothing in comparison to the superficial unity among Catholics.

Just another thought…
It was “former” Catholics to started denominations. The teachings of the CC remain, and have remained, constant. Its members rebel, change, and start their own denominations and from there others break away. Simply because some Catholics want to go their own ways, be disobedient, does not in effect change the teachings of the CC. Martin Luther a former Catholic didn’t like some of the teachings and he started his own. Did he remain Catholic? No. Same thing with Catholics now adays. They cease to be Catholic and they abandon the CC and start their own church with their own set of doctrines and beliefs. THEY ARE NO LONGER CATHOLIC. But do the teachings of the CC change because some leave? NO!! Is the Catholic Church going to change its doctrines because of some rebels? NO!! It cannot and it never will. The CC is NOT a democracy. The CC is Holy and protected by the Holy Spirit. Its members are sinful and have their free will whether to obey or not. If they will to disobey, they cease to be Catholics. We hear it all the times in the news about “division” among Catholics on Church Doctrines. What the media fails to reveal are the true teachings of the Catholic Church and show which are the faithful Catholics and which are the unfaithful who want to do their own thing. There is quite a distinction which the media will not report.

Some rebel Catholics may claim “Oh, I’m a very faithful Catholic, but I disagree with the Church’s position on abortion, on homosexual marriage, on women priest, and I believe the Eucharist is just a symbol” Is this a “faithful” Catholic? Not in the least!!! We have somebody who has abandoned the Church, and have no right to call themselves Catholics. But the media catches up on this and reports “A division among Catholics”.
All I have to say to this is “Bull Corn”!!

 

[ez3714]

Nothing like a little bombast to get the blood up, eh 'Stalker? You actually had me ready to praise Protestants…until I thought it through.

I would have praised Protestants for at least having the guts to come out and say, “I can’t hide my disagreement with this any longer, nor can I pretend there is any unity when I don’t feel it. I’m leaving.” Good for the Protestants!

And would I offer the same praise to a woman who utters those exact same words as she gets into a cab?

One of my favorite Protestant preachers (and I do still pray for them daily - as I do for Pope Benedict and my local Bishop - even though I can’t have Communion with Catholic or Protestant) said that one doesn’t merely join a church. One enters into covenant with it. Catholics fuss and fight, disagree, and do and say very stupid things. And for the ones who stay Catholic, I say “God Bless 'em, Every One.”

Oh. And as to your claim that Protestant infighting is not as mean. No offense, but I see by your “denominational tag” that you are from the quieter end of town. My friend, I was raised a Baptist, converted to Assembly of God, held membership in the Vineyard, and most recently identified with the Word Of Faith Movement. You just don’t know the hate I’ve had throwed at me. But, I’m certain that will let up as I explain to my former church-members that I’m likely converting to Catholicism, and as I explain to my new Catholic friends that they have not thought Pentecostalism or Word Of Faith all the way through yet.

 

[NotWorthy]

Oh. And as to your claim that Protestant infighting is not as mean. No offense, but I see by your “denominational tag” that you are from the quieter end of town. My friend, I was raised a Baptist, converted to Assembly of God, held membership in the Vineyard, and most recently identified with the Word Of Faith Movement. You just don’t know the hate I’ve had throwed at me. But, I’m certain that will let up as I explain to my former church-members that I’m likely converting to Catholicism, and as I explain to my new Catholic friends that they have not thought Pentecostalism or Word Of Faith all the way through yet.

From what I understand, there are few things as virulent as a church splitting up and forming two separate churches, and it seems to most often be over the most trivial matters.

 

[Truthstalker]

While it is sad that Notre Dame is going through with this farce (I have purchased my last ND shirt/hat and watched my last game ever…), it does represent a problem among those that claim to be the faithful.

There is a big difference, though, Truthstalker.

Notre Dame is not saying we should lift the ban on abortion. They are just honoring someone who happens to be very pro-abortion…

What kind of a distinction is that? In honoring someone they are honoring his position, including his position on abortion. When the Church stated that public officials should not be honored for their anti-Catholic positions, they had this kind of thing precisely in mind. Instead ND is teaching that Catholics are free to “pick and choose” what to obey and what isn’t. You cannot say that as a Catholic institution they do not teach the faith. These are people whose job it is to teach the faith.

The division that is often brought up regarding Protestant Faiths is a division of doctrines. Is baptism necessary? infant baptism? etc

The thread is about Catholic divisions and pseudo-unity in the Apologetics forum. It is interesting that you guys find no defense and instead are trying to turn it into an attack on Protestants. Protestants generally agree that other Protestants are Christians and have amicable and charitable relations.

 

[Truthstalker]

AMEN TO THAT!!!

“In fact, isn’t that how most of your denominations got started”

Snippy. Revealing again the typical lack of understanding of Protestants and distortion of the church they came from by converts to Catholicism and the prevalent Catholic myth that Protestant division arises solely from quarrels.

Catholic unity? Let’s see…The Nestorians, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, the Old Catholic, SSPX…If we learned to divide, we learned it from you. And now there are liberal Catholics, Catholics for choice, gay Catholics, Latin Mass Catholics who hate the NO, NO Catholics who hate the Latin Mass, as well as all manner of teaching and everyone insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is “not really Catholic.” Unity? Right…

The Church started in 33 AD. Apparently you didn’t get the news. My denomination is part of that. But let’s not turn this thread into a Catholic versus catholic thread.

 

[Truthstalker]

Just another thought…
It was “former” Catholics to started denominations. The teachings of the CC remain, and have remained, constant…

Yeah, right. You have never heard of doctrinal development, obviously.

Its members rebel, change, and start their own denominations and from there others break away. Simply because some Catholics want to go their own ways, be disobedient, does not in effect change the teachings of the CC. Martin Luther a former Catholic didn’t like some of the teachings and he started his own. Did he remain Catholic?

Same old tired Catholic myth about Luther. Boring. Read something that is not Catholic polemic against Luther and come back. Bainton’s book is pretty good. Modern Catholic scholars are more amiable to Luther than whatever sources you picked this up from - I am guessing unsubstantiated internet Catholic myths.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yeah, right. You have never heard of doctrinal development, obviously.

Same old tired Catholic myth about Luther. Boring. Read something that is not Catholic polemic against Luther and come back. Bainton’s book is pretty good. Modern Catholic scholars are more amiable to Luther than whatever sources you picked this up from - I am guessing unsubstantiated internet Catholic myths.

None of which addresses the real issue.

To speak of Protestant unity would be laughable if it weren’t so tragic since Protestants cannot agree amongst themselves whether infants should be baptized, whether baptism regenerates, whether Jesus is truly present in the Lord’s Supper, whether women or gays should be ordained as priests or bishops, and on and on and on.

Do some Catholics disagree on contraception? Do some think priests should be allowed to marry? Do some deny transubtantiation? Of course. But unlike the fragmented and fractured experience of Protestantism which has created numerous flocks with countless shepherds, the Catholic Church does offer a single postion that all are called to accept.

Any perceived or real disunity among (American) Catholics says more about those individuals than it does about the Church itself.

Perhaps instead of pointing out the speck in our eye, you might consider the plank in your own. Specifically, why is Presbyterianism so divided that its members jokingly refer to themselves as the “split peas”?

 

[Truthstalker]

Nothing like a little bombast to get the blood up, eh 'Stalker? You actually had me ready to praise Protestants…until I thought it through.

I would have praised Protestants for at least having the guts to come out and say, “I can’t hide my disagreement with this any longer, nor can I pretend there is any unity when I don’t feel it. I’m leaving.” Good for the Protestants!

The seeming Catholic lack of integrity in claiming they are unified in the face of the incredible divisions in the Catholic church smacks of a boldfaced lie. We admit we have doctrinal disagreements. You have exchanged honesty, it seems, for a loyalty to the Church that it seems most Catholics do not value at all, for a unity that seems to be more united in being divisive than in becoming more united.

And would I offer the same praise to a woman who utters those exact same words as she gets into a cab?

Huh?

One of my favorite Protestant preachers (and I do still pray for them daily - as I do for Pope Benedict and my local Bishop - even though I can’t have Communion with Catholic or Protestant) said that one doesn’t merely join a church. One enters into covenant with it. Catholics fuss and fight, disagree, and do and say very stupid things. And for the ones who stay Catholic, I say “God Bless 'em, Every One.”

We all say very stupid things. But the bar for bishops and priests is set very, very high by the Church, as the bishops are supposed to be the successors to the apostles, and so have teaching authority from God, and yet you must see the reality, and that is that they do not teach, and if they teach, they do not teach Catholicism. By Catholic standards it is worse than Protestants, as Protestants are not claiming to represent the true teaching of Rome.

In the present case, the lack of unity and the teaching of the Catholic Church is demonstrated as these priests and bishops teach by example: let dissension and defiance run through the land. Let priests defy official church teaching and endorse politicians who defy Church teaching. Bishops let these things go. Where is the example? Where is a bishop who actually fills the apostolic shoes, if they are the successors to the apostles? If they are such, they should act like it.

Oh. And as to your claim that Protestant infighting is not as mean. No offense, but I see by your “denominational tag” that you are from the quieter end of town. My friend, I was raised a Baptist, converted to Assembly of God, held membership in the Vineyard, and most recently identified with the Word Of Faith Movement. You just don’t know the hate I’ve had throwed at me. But, I’m certain that will let up as I explain to my former church-members that I’m likely converting to Catholicism, and as I explain to my new Catholic friends that they have not thought Pentecostalism or Word Of Faith all the way through yet.

I did not say it could not get ugly. But I think you will find that Catholics hate other Catholics even more than they hate Protestants. I’ve spent enough time around Catholics to know this. Even on this thread Catholics are stating that other Catholics are not worthy to be called Catholics. Wonderful unity. Wonderful witness.

 

[Truthstalker]

It is, I think, the actions (or non-actions) of the bishops here that is most troubling. Public offense requires public action. Action should have been swift. Jenkins should have been removed, or now, should be removed.

No doubt some idiot is going to call me an anti-Catholic or something. I would like to see the Church be all that it should be. It is the cold hearts and the apathy that speak most against the witness of the Church. I would like to see it as it should be, and the separation deeply bothers me, and the lack of morality. Jesus said he would rather we were hot or cold rather than lukewarm.

May your hearts be broken for the state of your church. Our church. The state of all who follow Christ. That we would be one.

 

[phoenix3212]

First off, I doubt any other Christian Tradition has produced a comprehensive catalog of beliefs on the level of the CCC.

You miss the point–the Catholic Church is united behind one Magesterium and one Pope. Obviously, there will be varying opinions between members of the Church, and some will even dissent to doctrinal teachings. However, their problems are mostly personal and represent no fracture in the Magisterium, which remains united. Diversity is accepted in the Catholic Church, and though there are unique tenets of the faith we must all agree upon, much breathing room exists for cultural differences and the like.

Saying the Catholic Church is divided is like saying Hawaii and Maine are not part of a united nation, simply because they have vast cultural differences.

 

[Truthstalker]

The situation at Notre Dame points out the sad truth that many people who CALL themselves Catholic are not Catholic in their beliefs.

I think it’s time we starting hearing the truth from our pulpits:

Abortion is murder.
Artificial Birth Control is intrinsically evil.
Homosexuality is a sin.
Marriage is between a man and a woman.
Women cannot be priests.
The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
Confession and absolution are required for those who have committed mortal sin.

If you don’t like these things, there’s the door. A Protestant church down the street will be happy to have you.

Cafeteria Catholicism is a cancer affecting the health of the entire body.

May God send us holy bishops and priests who know the truth and aren’t afraid to speak it.

Speaking of division, I find it curious that a Catholic would pick and choose what should be heard from the ambos and dare criticize bishops and priests as unholy and as those who do not know the truth and are afraid to speak the truth. Your priests don’t tell the truth from the pulpit? You called those over you in the church unholy,ignorant, cowards and possibly liars. You call the beliefs of fellow Catholics to be a cancer. You judge the leadership of the church as inadequate and apparently you could do better, as per your above advice. Yet you claim to be in communion with them. If a Protestant said these things you would instantly brand them as anti-Catholic. These are divisive and rebellious comments and display disloyalty to the church leadership.

I suggest you take the log out of your own eye.

 

[NotWorthy]

What kind of a distinction is that? In honoring someone they are honoring his position, including his position on abortion. When the Church stated that public officials should not be honored for their anti-Catholic positions, they had this kind of thing precisely in mind. Instead ND is teaching that Catholics are free to “pick and choose” what to obey and what isn’t. You cannot say that as a Catholic institution they do not teach the faith. These are people whose job it is to teach the faith.

Yes, it is and these people are failing. I’ve given up on Notre Dame as a Catholic University.

But, if they think they can “re-teach” the faith that abortion is moral and legal, then they are wrong… so wrong.

The thread is about Catholic divisions and pseudo-unity in the Apologetics forum. It is interesting that you guys find no defense and instead are trying to turn it into an attack on Protestants. Protestants generally agree that other Protestants are Christians and have amicable and charitable relations.

I wasn’t aware that I was attacking Protestants. I was simply responding to your opening post about Protestant division.

 

[BootCampJr]

Maybe its just me, but I have understood that Catholics don’t get the chance to choose what suits them with respect to their faith. When one is Catholic, they agree to all Her teachings.

 

[BootCampJr]

I’m also curious to know what percentage of Notre Dame’s students are actually Catholic. Perhaps that’s where the problem is

 

[Josh0322]

I wrote this in March in response to someone:

---

Now we see the spectacle of the head of Notre Dame, a Catholic priest, ordering campus police to arrest Catholic priests protesting the invitation and honoring of Obama. I note that what ND is doing is absolutely contrary to Catholic teaching and instruction. How can you claim to be one? There seems to be widespread disregard for official Church teaching and discipline (which, to this observer, is never enforced).

Notre Dame, premier Catholic institution. Notre Dame, honorer of Obama. The deep divisions within Catholicism are sharply shown to the world, and the Catholic leadership does little if anything about it.

Catholics point to divisions between Protestants, but it is nothing in comparison to the superficial unity among Catholics.

Irrespective of what Notre Dame allowed, that does not mean that there isn’t one united universal church. There are three main forms of Catholicism (Orthodox, Lebanese, Roman Catholic), compared to the 33000 different forms of protestant groups/sects/gatherings etc…that all claim to be right.

Just because one person does something that is not in line with the teaching of the church does not mean that the church as a whole operates under the guise of a superficial unity.

Truthstalker, understand that the Universal Church that you state is superficial is the ONLY Christian Church that officially accepts quite a few of protestant groups as well. This is not so in the protestant sect. More times than not I’m told by fellow Christians (protestants) that I have already sealed my fate with God and am going to hell because I "worship Mary, venerate a cookie…"and so on.

So the unity of the church is very deep. We as Christians must protect ourselves from our naysayers in the secular forum who would make such comments as you have. It will continue to run deep. We have withstood 2000 years of persecution and will continue to withstand persecution; as I hope you do as well.