The Sole Mediator between God and Man

[brb3]

Mediatrix…whatever its definition… just isn’t appropriate or suited to Mary.
Mediatrix sound cheezy, too secular for Mary.

How bout Our Spiritual Mother, Queen of Heaven, Lady of Sorrows, etc. Those don’t cause the Protestants to have a seizure of fear … thinking Catholics see her as 4th member addition to the Trinity.

 

[ahs]

I have “asked an Apologist” and got no reply. My question is: if Christ is the Sole Mediator between God and Man (1 Tim. 2: 5), why do many Catholics regard Mary as a “Mediatrix” or “Redemptrix”?

I am a faithful and loyal Catholic, but I am having a hard time with this. I get the difference between mediator and intercessor, but I’m got a BIG issue with this. Can someone (peferably clergy) clear this up for me? I need an answer.

… Maybe we should review the term “mediate”:
**1. ** To resolve or settle (differences) by working with all the conflicting parties: mediate a labor-management dispute.
**2. ** To bring about (a settlement, for example) by working with all the conflicting parties.
**3. ** To effect or convey as an intermediate agent or mechanism.
*v.**intr.***1. ** To intervene between two or more disputants in order to bring about an agreement, a settlement, or a compromise.
**2. ** To settle or reconcile differences.
3. To have a relation to two differing persons or things.

adj. (-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gift)**1. ** Acting through, involving, or dependent on an intervening agency.
**2. ** **Being in a middle position.

I underlined three of the definitions above - do you see how they apply to Mary? She “effected or conveyed” salvation when she agreed to “Let it be done…according to your word.” She has “a relation to two differing persons or things” since she is both in the world and contained the Word, and she was definitely in a “middle position” between God and mankind. So the term mediator might seem to be the term we’re looking for, but the term mediatrix simply means a woman who is a mediator. **

Hey Philthy!

OP, it is simple enough to understand Christ as the One Mediator between God and man. Do not lose sight of the fact that God brough Christ to man through Mary. Mary is not the middle-man between man and God (the Father) but the mediatrix that brought Christ to man…and can bring man to her son, Christ…Who [Christ] redeems man to God.

Mary’s role does not diminish Christ’s role as Mediator between God and man…but brings man to Christ, who is our Mediator…by literally bringing Christ to man (via human birth) by the power og God.

 

[ahs]

Here’s another way to look at it that just popped into my head (understadning that all anaologies eventually fail and this one certainly is no adequate model for reality):

Think of a “line” with points A, B and C. A is where man is, B is Christ (the Son made flesh), and C is God (the Triune God). B is teh direct link between A and C (Christ is the direct link between man and God).
Man has a direct path to Christ (A to B). Unfortunately, man is in the world and suffers temptation to sin…in other words…the devil has set traps along the path “A to B” to temp man and to watch him fail in reaching point B. So, man can vear to an adjacent point, M, which is Mary, before getting back on the path to B (Christ), less directly perhaps, and reach point B with the assistance of Mary.
It must likewise be noted that Chist, point B, was only made available to man by God’s establishing the adjacent point M. God could have chosen the direct path, B to A, but He didn’t. He chose B to A through M…so it makes sense that man would therefore also choose A to B through M.

 

[brb3]

Here’s another way to look at it that just popped into my head (understadning that all anaologies eventually fail and this one certainly is no adequate model for reality):

Think of a “line” with points A, B and C. A is where man is, B is Christ (the Son made flesh), and C is God (the Triune God). B is teh direct link between A and C (Christ is the direct link between man and God).
Man has a direct path to Christ (A to B). Unfortunately, man is in the world and suffers temptation to sin…in other words…the devil has set traps along the path “A to B” to temp man and to watch him fail in reaching point B. So, man can vear to an adjacent point, M, which is Mary, before getting back on the path to B (Christ), less directly perhaps, and reach point B with the assistance of Mary.
It must likewise be noted that Chist, point B, was only made available to man by God’s establishing the adjacent point M. God could have chosen the direct path, B to A, but He didn’t. He chose B to A through M…so it makes sense that man would therefore also choose A to B through M.

Except, many came to knowledge of God, thru Christ BEFORE Mary died and went to heaven. So, Mary is not essential to our introduction to the Father…via the Son. Can she be helpful today …ABSOLUTELY YES !!!

 

[ahs]

Except, many came to knowledge of God, thru Christ BEFORE Mary died and went to heaven. So, Mary is not essential to our introduction to the Father…via the Son. Can she be helpful today …ABSOLUTELY YES !!!

I suppose it depends on the definition of “essential”. Man certainly can go to Christ without asking for Mary’s intercession. And Christ can reveal Himself to man without Mary as well. However, it must not be overlooked that He chose not to. Christ chose not to come to man [each person] directly. Instead, Christ chose to be born of Mary. (That is not to say that Christ does not reveal Himself to some people directly…I am speaking of how Christ revealed Himself to the world…to mankind.) Many did, in fact, come to Christ before Mary’s death/assumption…but those men only came to know Christ through Christ’s birth from Mary. Mary might not be “essential” in your understanding of the word “essential” for man to come to God…but she IS essential to man coming to Christ…since Christ chose to come to man through Mary…and then Christ is certainly essential to man coming to God.

In other words, One does not get to God the Father except through Christ the Son. And all of us were introduced to Christ through His birth from Mary’s womb. Regardless of whether she was alive or died, no man was given Christ except that He chose to be born of Mary.* Thus, God has made Mary essential to bringing Christ to man, and man to Christ…and then Christ is essential to bringing man to God the Father.

*Not to say that Christ could not, or cannot, or does not come to man any other way…but that He chose this way as the normal means.

 

[brb3]

I suppose it depends on the definition of “essential”. Man certainly can go to Christ without asking for Mary’s intercession. And Christ can reveal Himself to man without Mary as well. However, it must not be overlooked that He chose not to. Christ chose not to come to man [each person] directly. Instead, Christ chose to be born of Mary. (That is not to say that Christ does not reveal Himself to some people directly…I am speaking of how Christ revealed Himself to the world…to mankind.) Many did, in fact, come to Christ before Mary’s death/assumption…but those men only came to know Christ through Christ’s birth from Mary. Mary might not be “essential” in your understanding of the word “essential” for man to come to God…but she IS essential to man coming to Christ…since Christ chose to come to man through Mary…and then Christ is certainly essential to man coming to God.

In other words, One does not get to God the Father except through Christ the Son. And all of us were introduced to Christ through His birth from Mary’s womb. Regardless of whether she was alive or died, no man was given Christ except that He chose to be born of Mary.* Thus, God has made Mary essential to bringing Christ to man, and man to Christ…and then Christ is essential to bringing man to God the Father.

*Not to say that Christ could not, or cannot, or does not come to man any other way…but that He chose this way as the normal means.

AHS…

Here is the problem with your reasoning / polemic . It might be true, but how could you possibly know this ?

If Christ had desired this role for Mary …would he not of made her an Apostle. Or if the Apostles had received this from Christ…wouldn’t they of chosen Mary instead of Matthias?

Why did Christ establish his Church on Peter, and not Mary ?
Mary is our Greatest Saint …and our Spiritual Mother …that much we can be sure of !!

 

[ahs]

AHS…

Here is the problem with your reasoning / polemic . It might be true, but how could you possibly know this ?

If Christ had desired this role for Mary …would he not of made her an Apostle. Or if the Apostles had received this from Christ…wouldn’t they of chosen Mary instead of Matthias?

Why did Christ establish his Church on Peter, and not Mary ?
Mary is our Greatest Saint …and our Spiritual Mother …that much we can be sure of !!

No, if what I am saying is true, we’d know it by Christ choosing Mary to be His mother…which He did. I don’t see what Apostleship or Papacy has to do with it. What I am saying, above, is that Christ chose to come into the world…present Himself to all mankind…via birth through Mary’s womb. This was the way He chose to come to mankind so that mankind could come to Him as the Mediator between God and man. I don’t think I have said anything other than to point that fact out. I believe you and I are of the same mind here, no? Did Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God, make Himself present to mankind in any other way prior to being born of Mary?

 

[brb3]

No, if what I am saying is true, we’d know it by Christ choosing Mary to be His mother…which He did. I don’t see what Apostleship or Papacy has to do with it. What I am saying, above, is that Christ chose to come into the world…present Himself to all mankind…via birth through Mary’s womb. This was the way He chose to come to mankind so that mankind could come to Him as the Mediator between God and man. I don’t think I have said anything other than to point that fact out. I believe you and I are of the same mind here, no? Did Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God, make Himself present to mankind in any other way prior to being born of Mary?

As a human being, born of woman ? No
But, possibly in human form. Consider Melchizedek, the high priest, who met Abraham & blessed him with bread & wine. Who was this mystery priest …we know very little of him.
Also, the Lord / Christ walked past Moses in cleft of Rock, and Moses beheld his back.

Why do you ask ?

 

[R_C]

As a human being, born of woman ? No
But, possibly in human form. Consider Melchizedek, the high priest, who met Abraham & blessed him with bread & wine. Who was this mystery priest …we know very little of him.
Also, the Lord / Christ walked past Moses in cleft of Rock, and Moses beheld his back.

Nope. This was not the Son. Melchizedek was a mere man, a mere creature, and Moses did not see God because nobody can see God and live. He certainly did not see the Son, who was purely spiritual. We do not know what Moses saw - we read of God manifesting “his glory”, sometimes as a majestic cloud, but we do not know what this vision truly was.

 

[fluffywumpkins]

Read “Treatise on the True Devotion” by St. Louis-Marie Grignon de Montfort, keeping in mind that it has been approved and praised by the Church and personally by many popes ever since it was written. There you will find all the answers you need.

In short: while Christ is indeed the only Mediator between God and Man, the Son took flesh from Mary, thus it is through Mary that God came to Man.

In fact, the theology is very, very profound. Don’t take it lightly, and don’t approach it with protestant mindset: she is who she is by God’s will, and the Church does nothing but acknowledge what the Spirit reveals.

I hope my post is not too confusing or containing too many questions. It seems the further I dig the more questions pop up and I feel I know a lot less than I thought I did about Catholic doctrine. This post kind of triggered a chain reaction of questions in my mind.

So last week sometime a girlfriend of mine (Baptist) asked a question about Matthew 8:10. I offered the explanation from the USCCB website that spoke about the intercessions of angels. She immediately shot down that idea as she does not believe in intercessions yet she believes in praying for each other. Anyway, I’ve been delving into our practice of intercessions to try to come up with and intelligible way of dialoguing with my friend so that I have a thorough background to any scripture that might come up. I started thinking that our beliefs of Mary as Co-mediatrix may be a good place to start. Another friend (the dialogue has become a group conversation as of recent) suggested 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . . " While this verse sounds all well and good for the argument against Mary as co-mediatrix the previous verse states that “[God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” This reminds me of John 13:13 where it speaks of Jesus being our teacher which leads me to the conclusion that Jesus is the one who teaches us that knowledge of truth. We humans in turn must make the decision to accept that authority of truth and obey and hopefully end up in full Communion with God or to deny Jesus’ truth and go our own way (which obviously is not the way to salvation). Is this a correct interpretation? Is it in lines with Church teachings or am I taking things out of context?

Later on in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 it talks about how a woman should be submissive to her husband and to never have authority over him or teach him as Adam was formed first then Eve, and as we all know Eve was formed of Adam’s rib. This relates more directly with your quote from above. Jesus took flesh from Mary, so does that mean that Mary has authority over Jesus in some way or is that strictly in an earthly sense (obedience to father and mother 4th commandment). I could see how one could interpret this to explain Mary’s intersessional influence, but does she have any sort of authority over Jesus? I would imagine that she would not have authority over his divinity as that is of God thus corroborating “there is only one mediator between God and men.” Mary’s co-redeeming “properties” in relation to salvation is that of transcendence. Although Jesus was born of Mary, she is an outward sign pointing to Jesus, he transcends her, thus it is only through Jesus that we are saved, the one mediator. Do I seem to have a pretty good grasp, or am I all sorts of wrong?

~Ann (aka fluffywumpkins)

 

[brb3]

Nope. This was not the Son. Melchizedek was a mere man, a mere creature, and Moses did not see God because nobody can see God and live. He certainly did not see the Son, who was purely spiritual. We do not know what Moses saw - we read of God manifesting “his glory”, sometimes as a majestic cloud, but we do not know what this vision truly was.

Well, Melchizedeck was not just a mere man …but, a PRIEST OF MOST HIGH. Someone endowed with unique grace & wisdom, by Christ himself.

And, Scott Hahn teaches Moses DID see God, Face-to-face …in his book A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISES. Have u read it ?

 

[brb3]

I hope my post is not too confusing or containing too many questions. It seems the further I dig the more questions pop up and I feel I know a lot less than I thought I did about Catholic doctrine. This post kind of triggered a chain reaction of questions in my mind.

So last week sometime a girlfriend of mine (Baptist) asked a question about Matthew 8:10. I offered the explanation from the USCCB website that spoke about the intercessions of angels. She immediately shot down that idea as she does not believe in intercessions yet she believes in praying for each other. Anyway, I’ve been delving into our practice of intercessions to try to come up with and intelligible way of dialoguing with my friend so that I have a thorough background to any scripture that might come up. I started thinking that our beliefs of Mary as Co-mediatrix may be a good place to start. Another friend (the dialogue has become a group conversation as of recent) suggested 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . . " While this verse sounds all well and good for the argument against Mary as co-mediatrix the previous verse states that “[God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” This reminds me of John 13:13 where it speaks of Jesus being our teacher which leads me to the conclusion that Jesus is the one who teaches us that knowledge of truth. We humans in turn must make the decision to accept that authority of truth and obey and hopefully end up in full Communion with God or to deny Jesus’ truth and go our own way (which obviously is not the way to salvation). Is this a correct interpretation? Is it in lines with Church teachings or am I taking things out of context?

Later on in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 it talks about how a woman should be submissive to her husband and to never have authority over him or teach him as Adam was formed first then Eve, and as we all know Eve was formed of Adam’s rib. This relates more directly with your quote from above. Jesus took flesh from Mary, so does that mean that Mary has authority over Jesus in some way or is that strictly in an earthly sense (obedience to father and mother 4th commandment). I could see how one could interpret this to explain Mary’s intersessional influence, but does she have any sort of authority over Jesus? I would imagine that she would not have authority over his divinity as that is of God thus corroborating “there is only one mediator between God and men.” Mary’s co-redeeming “properties” in relation to salvation is that of transcendence. Although Jesus was born of Mary, she is an outward sign pointing to Jesus, he transcends her, thus it is only through Jesus that we are saved, the one mediator. Do I seem to have a pretty good grasp, or am I all sorts of wrong?

~Ann (aka fluffywumpkins)

Yes, Jesus, as the ONLY God-man who ever existed, he alone has borne our sins & made atonement for them via suffering death and being Resurrected. He, THE ONE MEDIATOR for us (regarding grace unto justification). Mary only assists him…in even way Christ deems fitting for her. Whatever’s he says …she does it.
Its all discussed in the CCC …I believe it in the 300’s.

 

[rfournier103]

I hope my post is not too confusing or containing too many questions. It seems the further I dig the more questions pop up and I feel I know a lot less than I thought I did about Catholic doctrine. This post kind of triggered a chain reaction of questions in my mind.

So last week sometime a girlfriend of mine (Baptist) asked a question about Matthew 8:10. I offered the explanation from the USCCB website that spoke about the intercessions of angels. She immediately shot down that idea as she does not believe in intercessions yet she believes in praying for each other. Anyway, I’ve been delving into our practice of intercessions to try to come up with and intelligible way of dialoguing with my friend so that I have a thorough background to any scripture that might come up. I started thinking that our beliefs of Mary as Co-mediatrix may be a good place to start. Another friend (the dialogue has become a group conversation as of recent) suggested 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus . . . " While this verse sounds all well and good for the argument against Mary as co-mediatrix the previous verse states that “[God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” This reminds me of John 13:13 where it speaks of Jesus being our teacher which leads me to the conclusion that Jesus is the one who teaches us that knowledge of truth. We humans in turn must make the decision to accept that authority of truth and obey and hopefully end up in full Communion with God or to deny Jesus’ truth and go our own way (which obviously is not the way to salvation). Is this a correct interpretation? Is it in lines with Church teachings or am I taking things out of context?

Later on in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 it talks about how a woman should be submissive to her husband and to never have authority over him or teach him as Adam was formed first then Eve, and as we all know Eve was formed of Adam’s rib. This relates more directly with your quote from above. Jesus took flesh from Mary, so does that mean that Mary has authority over Jesus in some way or is that strictly in an earthly sense (obedience to father and mother 4th commandment). I could see how one could interpret this to explain Mary’s intersessional influence, but does she have any sort of authority over Jesus? I would imagine that she would not have authority over his divinity as that is of God thus corroborating “there is only one mediator between God and men.” Mary’s co-redeeming “properties” in relation to salvation is that of transcendence. Although Jesus was born of Mary, she is an outward sign pointing to Jesus, he transcends her, thus it is only through Jesus that we are saved, the one mediator. Do I seem to have a pretty good grasp, or am I all sorts of wrong?

~Ann (aka fluffywumpkins)

Mary has no authority or spiritual superiority over Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in a class by themselves.

The role Mary played in our salvation was her contribution of Jesus. No doubt Jesus loves his mother, as we do as well, but make no mistake… HE is the star of the show.

I started this thread because I was confused as well, because I have head “co-mediatrix” before, and wanted clarification. I do not subscribe to the notion of there being more than one mediatior, but do believe in the intercession of the saints.

Mary is the most most venerated saint (NOT WORSHIPED!!!), but I feel very strongly that there is only one mediatior.

Try this link… You may find it helpful. Especially parts II and III. Good luck to you!

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Vico]

Mary has no authority or spiritual superiority over Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in a class by themselves.

The role Mary played in our salvation was her contribution of Jesus. No doubt Jesus loves his mother, as we do as well, but make no mistake… HE is the star of the show.

I started this thread because I was confused as well, because I have head “co-mediatrix” before, and wanted clarification. I do not subscribe to the notion of there being more than one mediatior, but do believe in the intercession of the saints.

Mary is the most most venerated saint (NOT WORSHIPED!!!), but I feel very strongly that there is only one mediatior.

Try this link… You may find it helpful. Especially parts II and III. Good luck to you!

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I’m puzzled by you definition of worship. Adoration (given to God) and veneration (given to angels and saints) are both worship. Worship is acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position.

 

[rfournier103]

Mary has no authority or spiritual superiority over Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in a class by themselves.

The role Mary played in our salvation was her contribution of Jesus. No doubt Jesus loves his mother, as we do as well, but make no mistake… HE is the star of the show.

I started this thread because I was confused as well, because I have head “co-mediatrix” before, and wanted clarification. I do not subscribe to the notion of there being more than one mediatior, but do believe in the intercession of the saints.

Mary is the most most venerated saint (NOT WORSHIPED!!!), but I feel very strongly that there is only one mediatior.

Try this link… You may find it helpful. Especially parts II and III. Good luck to you!

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

I’m puzzled by you definition of worship. Adoration (given to God) and veneration (given to angels and saints) are both worship. Worship is acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position.

From Miriam Webster:

Veneration: Respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

Worship:

1. Chiefly British: A person of importance —used as a title for various officials. (as magistrates and some mayors)
2. **Reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence **
3. **A form of religious practice with its creed and ritual. **
4. Extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem.

Numbers 1 and 4 are clearly not Catholic or religious examples. The British sometimes refer to certain noble persons as “his worship, the duke of widget”; for example. 2 and 3 are the definitions I was refeerring to. Does this help?

 

[Vico]

From Miriam Webster:

Veneration: Respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person.

Worship:

1. Chiefly British: A person of importance —used as a title for various officials. (as magistrates and some mayors)
2. **Reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence **
3. **A form of religious practice with its creed and ritual. **
4. Extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem.

Numbers 1 and 4 are clearly not Catholic or religious examples. The British sometimes refer to certain noble persons as “his worship, the duke of widget”; for example. 2 and 3 are the definitions I was refeerring to. Does this help?

I see.

Collins Dictinonary:

   **worship

**
verb ( -ships, -shipping, -shipped, (US) -ships, -shiping, -shiped)

1. 
   *] tr to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine)
   *] tr to be devoted to and full of admiration for
   *] intr to have or express feelings of profound adoration
   *] intr to attend services for worship
   *] tr (obsolete) to honour
   

          **noun**

   1. 
      *]religious adoration or devotion
      *]the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc
      *]admiring love or devotion
      *](archaic) dignity or standing
      
      Modern Catholic Dictionary has:**WORSHIP. **Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoration (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)