the song "AMAZING GRACE"

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Yes your answer is my proof. You should lighten up.

You don’t decide what words the Church the puts in our leaves out of Bible translations and you have no right under Canon law to publicly criticize their decisions to do so. You may criticize the Church ex officio within the proper protocols - just like the rest of us.

Likewise, YOU don’t declare what is and what is not heresy. Check the code of canon law for that one too Torquemada.

Only the Church ex officio declares a person to be a heretic or their writings or sayings to be heretical.

In essence, what you are doing is violating canons 220 and 1369 of the code of Canon law in that you are harming the reputation of the person, or persons who decided in that particular Church committee or conclave to include that hymn in that book of worship.

You did not name the laity, clergy or religious by name but you did defame and slander them.

So:
  1. You have not proven your claim that the song is heretical, because as a Catholic you are bound to obey Church law which states that only the Church ex officio may declare heresy or a heretic.
  2. Any complaint you wish to make to the Church regarding this must be made in the proper channels. I think this would mean first talking to your priest about what that entails. I would suppose that if your bishop approves of that hymnal, that Rome sees no problem with it. If you think Rome is somehow unaware that “Amazing Grace” is in all or some Catholic hymnals then feel free to write to them.
  3. I have proven that you have committed the sin of detraction - namely in violating the canons committing us to charitably resolving differences of opinion within the church. If I think my priest or a lay theologian is committing heresy, a public bulletin board or radio talk show is not the place to make my complaint.
  4. Clearly, by your above post and the 1983 code (www.vatican.va) You have violated basic juridical conduct by defaming the Church, religion in general, your ordinary (who aproves this hymnal), your priest, and the synod or national conference of bishops and those in it who selected this particular song.
Orthodox means derived from the truth. It seems like you are making your own truth up. I follow the laws of my Church, you are calling yourself a Catholic but behaving like John Kerry - interpreting the rules to suit your own agenda.
  • no sale grand inquisitor. I follow the Church on this one, not your subjective interpretation
-George
 
Michael C:
I think Post #11 makes a good point. The author of the song wrote lyrics when he almost died during a storm out to sea on a slave ship. Poster #4 makes a good point about the red sox…JK.
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I am in RCIA and I am a member of a predominantly Black Baptist Church. Newton was a slave buyer and captained slave ships. He still worked in that capacity even after he initially became a Christian. He left the sea around 1755 and in 1764 he was ordained a priest in the Church of England. He wrote “Amazing Grace” perhaps in 1772.

“Amazing Grace” is sung in Black Churches and also in a vast majority of Protestant Churches. I see nothing wrong with singing it in the Catholic Church. Maybe it will stir a visiting Protestant into thinking better of Catholics.

I think those who dislike the hymn are being uncharitable. How can a hymn sing greatly of our works? Wouldn’t such a hymn lack humility? “Amazing Grace” sings of Grace but I do not think it denies works.

In the mid-1970s, I sang in my college’s Catholic Chapel Choir (you all have the best music). I should have known, but didn’t sign up for RCIA or even give it a thought until this year.

While I was in the Catholic Chapel Choir, once our director had us singing “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God”. I was surprised because Martin Luther was excommunicated. It was explained to me at that time that Luther’s hymn was not the problem and that it was a good hymn.

I am convinced that if one is full of the Holy Spirit of God, one does not spend time looking for specks in a brother’s eye. Instead, I suppose such a one is marveling at God’s grace and perhaps also marveling at how Mary the Mother of God is so full of grace and capable of granting God’s grace to us all – especially if we ask.

I hope to see “The Negro National Anthem” – “Lift Every Voice and Sing” added to the Catholic hymnal. See africanamericans.com/NegroNationalAnthem.htm November is Black Catholic History Month. I don’t know why not February. But I don’t want to steal this thread. I’ll start another thread on that.
 
Roger that JMMM. All those hymns are fantastic and if the Church signs off on them, I know that it has thought about it and read the lyrics.

The argument by some here that singing protestant hymns is heresy is absurd - especially since no individual Catholic declare what is heresy.

It is highly disrespectful to our brother Christians. Anyone out there heard of Vatican II. The windows of the church are still open and we are letting some air in.

God bless non-Catholic Christians and all men and women of goodwill.

especially those who write for the bagpipes.
 
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George2:
Roger that JMMM. All those hymns are fantastic and if the Church signs off on them, I know that it has thought about it and read the lyrics.

The argument by some here that singing protestant hymns is heresy is absurd - especially since no individual Catholic declare what is heresy.

It is highly disrespectful to our brother Christians. Anyone out there heard of Vatican II. The windows of the church are still open and we are letting some air in.

God bless non-Catholic Christians and all men and women of goodwill.

especially those who write for the bagpipes.
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:amen: to ALL of the above!!! And, I Love Amazing Grace…I was in a potentially serious auto accident a week ago where my husband and I were nearly killed…all I could think of going round and round in my head as I lay of the board w/ neckbrace in the ambulance were songs of praise and the song Amazing Grace…We were miraculously spared…only mild head injuries and bumps and bruises. Now that was Amazing Grace!!! Annunciata:)
 
Amazing Grace actually has curative powers.

I volunteered with rough and tough ex-cons for three years. Few, if any of them were observant or faithful Christians or believers of any sort.

Every Wed. night we closed “Bible Study/Faith Sharing night” with any song the guys wanted.

They all knew and loved Amazing Grace. Perhaps having learned it in prison from Salvation Army volunteers or other Christian visitors.

That song never failed to put the Holy Spirit right in the living room of that halfway house.
 
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dal11:
should we be singing amazing grace in a catholic church. just wondering if anybody out there has ever listened to the words. we sing it at mass all the time. it’s in our hymn book. it refers to not receiving grace till we first believe, which would go against what we believe at baptism. it also refers to once saved always saved… another song that is sung sometimes is “mary did you know”, which also has a line in it that goes against catholic teaching. it states the son that you just had would soon deliver you. jesus did deliver her but it was at her conception. this is stating she hasn’t been delivered yet. any thoughts?
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I don’t see anything wrong with Amazing Grace either. In fact, the story of its writing is quite inspiring as I recall. A few years ago this song was seen as a partcularly meaningful sign of encouragement to a family member in a difficult time.

I have a relative who plays the bagpipes, and it is certainly one of the best pipe melodies around.
 
Since my last post was deleted I will use experts from EWTN:
A doctrinally incorrect hymn should not be used in the liturgy.
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ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum8&recnu=1&number=413111

The Arcdiocese of Denver calls Amazing Grace,
unattractive
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archden.org/dcr/archive/20011107/2001110709op.htm

Another expert at EWTN goes on to say that
implies adherence to Calvin’s doctrine of the inadmissibility of divine grace and the certitude of salvation, as well as those basic doctrines characteristic of Lutheranism.
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ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/FR91300.TXT

Zenit reports from Father Edward McNamara, professor of Liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum,
Any hymn that contains doctrine contrary to Catholic teachings, or is ambiguous, should not be used.
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catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=487
 
Orthodox:

All you have done is:
  1. State that doctrinally incorrect hymns may not be used.
  2. Give someone’s opinion that this song is “unattractive”
  3. quote someone else’s opinion
  4. quote another person’s opinion.
A. None of these experts gave any proof that this Hymn is actually doctrinally incorrect. In fact the ones you cited only allege that it is “implicitly” incorrect.

B. Neither the persons you quoted or you have the final say in what hymns and songs are suitable for Catholic worship and for what parts of the Mass and other rites.

C. You have not commented on your prior allegations that this song is somehow “heretical”, and - by direct inference - those who allow it to be played are heretics.

D. Your public allegation is a violation of the rules and norms of the Church. If you really felt that way, you were duty-bound, as a Catholic in full communion, to report your complaint or allegation to your ordinary. Were you unsatisfied with his response or lack thereof, you have recourse to appeal his decision to play this hymn in his diocese.

I can find twenty Catholic “experts” who disagree with you. Zenit is a fine source, as is EWTN but I can find Catholic “experts” who think other liturgical matters are “implicitly” or explicitly flawed. Opinions are like… well you get the picture.

However, as this is a matter of faith, not one of prudential judgement, you are advised to take your claim of heresy to your ordinary. If he feels your case merits hearing he will probably assign you a canon lawyer to prepare your libellus, or formal complaint.

I believe that is how Catholics do it and a Catholic has no need of a qualifying adjective. There are no orthodox, conservative or liberal Catholics, only Catholics obedient to Rome.

As Rome is asking you to take your charge of heresy and heretical liturgical committees, and presumably national bishops conferences to them privately and discretely, I would suggest you obey Christ by obeying His Church.

salud,

G
 
and i quoted " evangelical and catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology that we are saved by grace. god gives us his life as an act of generosity on his part. this is not a point of disagreement between catholics and evangelicals. it is one of the glorious agreements! the hymn “amazing grace” is a favorite of in both churches. none of us would have a chance at salvation but for the grace of god. we need to remind ourselves that on this point we are in total agreement. we are saved by grace. anyone who disagrees with this analysis is not looking at the facts" from david currie born fundamentalist born again catholic…:blessyou:
 
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George2:
Orthodox:

All you have done is:
  1. State that doctrinally incorrect hymns may not be used.
  2. Give someone’s opinion that this song is “unattractive”
  3. quote someone else’s opinion
  4. quote another person’s opinion.
A. None of these experts gave any proof that this Hymn is actually doctrinally incorrect. In fact the ones you cited only allege that it is “implicitly” incorrect.

B. Neither the persons you quoted or you have the final say in what hymns and songs are suitable for Catholic worship and for what parts of the Mass and other rites.

C. You have not commented on your prior allegations that this song is somehow “heretical”, and - by direct inference - those who allow it to be played are heretics.

D. Your public allegation is a violation of the rules and norms of the Church. If you really felt that way, you were duty-bound, as a Catholic in full communion, to report your complaint or allegation to your ordinary. Were you unsatisfied with his response or lack thereof, you have recourse to appeal his decision to play this hymn in his diocese.

I can find twenty Catholic “experts” who disagree with you. Zenit is a fine source, as is EWTN but I can find Catholic “experts” who think other liturgical matters are “implicitly” or explicitly flawed. Opinions are like… well you get the picture.

However, as this is a matter of faith, not one of prudential judgement, you are advised to take your claim of heresy to your ordinary. If he feels your case merits hearing he will probably assign you a canon lawyer to prepare your libellus, or formal complaint.

I believe that is how Catholics do it and a Catholic has no need of a qualifying adjective. There are no orthodox, conservative or liberal Catholics, only Catholics obedient to Rome.

As Rome is asking you to take your charge of heresy and heretical liturgical committees, and presumably national bishops conferences to them privately and discretely, I would suggest you obey Christ by obeying His Church.

salud,

G
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George2,
I go with Orthodox on his statements. EWTN is made up of experts who are loyal to the magisterium and doctrine of the church. They are more credible than you are! Whether you like it or not their opinions are dead on the mark. Father Bob Lewis would say the same thing. You refuse to acknowledge this. Ecumenism is enforced the wrong way in many parishes. I’m more for the traditional hymns of the church and gregorian chant.

Padre Pio “Don’t worry, work and pray.”
 
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dal11:
should we be singing amazing grace in a catholic church? /QUOTE]

Dear One: I feel YOU are getting WAY too analytical here for your own good. This beautiful song Amazing Grace is ONE of the most gorgeous and inspiring out there. How could you even doubt this?

This song is awesome and always will be for Christians all over the WORLD!!!

Don’t fret friend–spend your time elsewhere.
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Another great thing about the lyrics to “Amazing Grace” is that they lend themselves to many different tunes. Just try singing to the tune of “I’d like to teach the world to sing”, or, my favorite, the theme to “Gilligan’s Island”.
 
Since my last post was deleted I will use experts from EWTN:
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It probably would have been more effective had you actually found anyone talking about this hymn in particular who came to your conclusion. The Archbishop called it unattractive, but did not go so far as to say that it was heretical. Fr. Skeris discusses the possible influence of the pronounced Calvinism of the composer as well as the subtly Lutheran influence of I-me-mine words, but he doesn’t say “the song endorses a heresy.” Indeed, the fact that both of them reviewed the song negatively without calling it a heresy strongly suggests that it is not heretical in content.

The song might be liturgically inappropriate or unadvisable, but you have gone way too far to call it heretical.
 
Wretch - St. Paul calls himself wretched. Jesus calls the church in Laodecia wretched. Anyone one in mortal sin is in a wretched state. Only if total depravity is asserted (which “Amazing Grace” does not) would it be heretical.

The Church believes in grace, sin and conversion. The only arguement I have ever seen that holds up to scrutinty is that it might not be prudent to use where the potential exists for it to be interpreted in a “once saved always saved” light.
 
Well I don’t care for it either but I’m not going to argue with George and say it’s heresy…but as a musician I just got burnt out on it long ago. It seems rather Protestant-y. When I joined the Church in 1993 I was expecting more sacramental music but our parish’s music has been steadily getting worse as our music directors and cantors move on. Now they’re begging for more pianists, and I haven’t touched one in 10 years. Knew I should have kept up those lessons!

Obviously Amazing Grace is an easy one for newbies to pick up, or they might already know it.
 
Dr. Colossus:
The only words that would seem to be a direct contradiction to Catholic teaching is the part “that saved a wretch like me”, which refers to the idea of the total depravity of Man, which the Church rejects. When this song is sung at our parish, the words are changed to “that saved and set me free”.
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“Saved a wretch like me” in this case refers not to the total depravity of man but to the author’s extensive involvement in the slave trade, which he abandoned after an intense conversion experience. he later became an Anglican clergyman and worked for the abolition of slavery.
 
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