The Soul and the Brain

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But what is the need for (or proof of) an extracorporeal entity/ghost/soul, outside of theology? It is fairly clear from neuroscience research and clinical neurology that sensation, perception, decision, and action all arise from brain activity.
Of course the mind and brain are connected. The mind arises from brain activity.
If the mind arises from brain activity a person is just a biological machine incapable of choosing what to think or how to behave, with no purpose in life, no right to life, no ability to distinguish between good and evil and no capacity for self-sacrifice or love… Theology and philosophy become bunk… and everything that is not mechanistic. But of course the mind=brain is self-contradictory because how can biological machines understand what they are or reach the conclusion that everything is mechanistic? They don’t even know what “everything” is. Biological machines produced by random mutations and natural selection are only concerned with survival, not insight into the nature of reality! 🤷
 
The soul is not “in” the brain. It uses the brain, yes, but is not “kept” in there. The soul is the substantial form united with matter that makes us humans. It is in every cell of our body. The soul is what brings life to all living creatures. All living creatures. Plants, animals and humans. We are not animals, but humans, unique creatures, with unique souls. Our soul has an intellect and a will. Study St. Thomas . I know it can get confusing, but if you spend time first praying to the Holy Ghost to give you better understanding, He will do so. Spend time dwelling upon what St. Thomas has written. It answers many questions.

**

17.** From the human soul there naturally issue forth powers pertaining to two orders, the organic and the non-organic. The organic powers, among which are the senses, have the composite as their subject. The non-organic powers have the soul alone as their subject. Hence, the intellect is a power intrinsically independent of any bodily organ.

St Th. Ia. Q.77-79 ; Cont. Gent. II, c.72 ; De Anim. a.12 and ff. ; De Spirit. Creat. a.11

Here is a link from my source
catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/philosophy/thomast.htm#_ftnref17

Trust in God Always
 
When you say “the force” I assume you are referring the supernatural, that which “exceeds the material world and its sensory phenomena”. If the materialists are right and everything is matter of one kind or another, we should avoid using this word. If however we can identify even a single thing that is immaterial but is still objectively real, we could at least use the word supernatural to describe that one thing. I have a friend who is a die-hard materialist and I once asked him “OK, so what is the volume of Bach’s Invention No. 9?”. He couldn’t answer the question, nor could he provide me with a single material property of Bach’s Invention No. 9. You can measure area of the sheet music, the weight of the instruments used to play it, the loudness of it being played, and if you were mad you could try to measure the number of neurons engaged in someone performing it, but all of these measurements would be of physical things upon which the Invention impinges, not the Invention No. 9 itself. This is because Bach’s Invention No. 9 is wholly immaterial. It is an idea. So according to the definition above I can at least call Bach’s composition supernatural.

C.S. Lewis has an interesting argument that the mind must in some way be supernatural for if it is purely material it is subject to the same chance forces that we observe in other material systems. If it does not transcend what it observes, it’s judgments are no more true than the judgments of a magic 8 ball. Under such conditions the statement “the mind is material” has no more or less validity than the statement “Jupiter is made of cheese.” Lewis uses the metaphor of a man cutting his own legs off to describe such a materialist position.

I concede these arguments are not evidence in the laboratory sense. Experimenters demand empirical measurements, something that by definition cannot be provided in this case. All we can do is identify the limits of matter and ask if anything goes beyond it.

The video you refer to sounds quite interesting…
Hmmm, not a star wars fan huh? 😉 “The force” was just an example of another unprovable idea regarding the subject. I can just as easily say we’re in the matrix or that every day we wake up a different person with memories intact. Neat ideas, no evidence.

“OK, so what is the volume of Bach’s Invention No. 9” - This is of course an absurdity, like asking what the weight of 7:00 is. It’s abstract, like all ideas are. The music itself is vibration, but the meaning of the vibration and the pleasure it brings us are only meaningful to us. In other words, without humans there to interpret it, there is no Invention No. 9 like like without ants their pheromone trails would be meaningless.

You agree that there is not evidence for such things, which is at least important (some seem to see evidence where there really is not any). My point is not that such things are impossible or that the ideas are wrong, it’s simply that without evidence, there really is no way to tell what theory is valid between many plausible theories (as was explained in more detail in the “tyranny of evidence” video I posted several posts ago). Anyway, hope that makes sense at least 🙂
 
The soul is the substantial form united with matter that makes us humans. It is in every cell of our body. The soul is what brings life to all living creatures. All living creatures. Plants, animals and humans.
What about Bacteria? Viruses? RNA? At what point do you call something alive?
 
I am curious about the Catholic Church’s position on the relation of the brain and the soul. There have been many different views on this, by Catholics and scientists, throughout history, ranging from that there is no soul, just the brain, to the brain is essentially irrelevant and all psychological functions are based in the soul. What view does the Church espouse regarding this topic, and/or what is your personal opinion on it? 🙂
Hi, this is my understanding about the mind-body or soul-brain problem:
The view that the soul or mind is purely a result of physical processes taking place in the brain is a corollary of the worldview of scientific materialism . Materialism sees all of reality as subsisting within a closed system which admits no supernatural reality whatsoever. I think you can see where I am going with this… it would be incompatible with the Catholic view of reality. I have been reading Edward Feser’s The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism, and on pages 190-197 he specifically deals with the mind-body problem. However, I would recommend the whole book to get you boned up on the whole atheistic worldview. Writtten in an engaging style, readable for the layman, and entirely consistent with Catholicism. I do not know at this time if Feser is a Catholic, though I suspect it.
Regards, Birdchest
 
What about Bacteria? Viruses? RNA? At what point do you call something alive?
Since the smallest point at which an entity can still retain it’s essence is the molecule, and if I understand it, bacteria, viruses and RNA are at least at big as a molecule, so then yes, they are alive. I’d recommend a very easy to understand book, Cosmology, by Br. Francis, M.I.C.M. if you really want to understand this better.
 
Since the smallest point at which an entity can still retain it’s essence is the molecule, and if I understand it, bacteria, viruses and RNA are at least at big as a molecule, so then yes, they are alive. I’d recommend a very easy to understand book, Cosmology, by Br. Francis, M.I.C.M. if you really want to understand this better.
It was a question to get you thinking, I didn’t need to understand it better but thank you for the attempt at assistance (really, I do appreciate it when people at least try to help or give recommendations). I don’t think you understand the point of the question though. RNA itself is just 1 molecule, it can’t survive on it’s own, but it’s used by viruses. Viruses can replicate on their own, but use other cells to do so and so are dependant on other things. Bacteria are the smallest organism that can reproduce on their own without help.

My point is that “life” is not a black and white area, the definition is extremely hard to pin down at a low level. At what point does something cease to be life and become just chemistry?
 
My point is that “life” is not a black and white area, the definition is extremely hard to pin down at a low level. At what point does something cease to be life and become just chemistry?
Thanks for the response! I do think I got what you were asking though - the key word, I used was essence. The essence of the bacteria molecule IS alive. If we were to split it down further, then it would no longer be bacteria, but only a part of something. The molecule is the lowest or smallest point at which anything can be broken down and still retain what it is. This seems pretty clear to me. Did this help?
 
Thanks for the response! I do think I got what you were asking though - the key word, I used was essence. The essence of the bacteria molecule IS alive. If we were to split it down further, then it would no longer be bacteria, but only a part of something. The molecule is the lowest or smallest point at which anything can be broken down and still retain what it is. This seems pretty clear to me. Did this help?
Wait, so are you saying you consider molecules to be alive?
 
Biological machines produced by random mutations and natural selection are only concerned with survival, not insight into the nature of reality! 🤷
A more accurate statement:
Biological machines produced by random mutations and natural selection are operated by physical processes which enable them to survive and have no insight into the nature of reality!
 
“OK, so what is the volume of Bach’s Invention No. 9” - This is of course an absurdity, like asking what the weight of 7:00 is. It’s abstract, like all ideas are. The music itself is vibration, but the meaning of the vibration and the pleasure it brings us are only meaningful to us. In other words, without humans there to interpret it, there is no Invention No. 9
Hold on a second. You have repeatedly said that it is obvious that all thought is part of a physical neurological system and that there is no evidence for any kind of supernatural reality. In response I gave the example of a piece of music by Bach that is immaterial and yet objectively real. If you disagree with this, you either have to show that the composition is material or that it is not real. When I ask what the volume of the composition is you call the question absurd, even though material things have volumes. You then say the composition is “abstract”. It turns out that “abstract” is a synonym for immaterial, so here you confirm my original argument. You are correct in saying that a sound vibration is produced when the composition is played, but if you read the last post carefully you will find that I distinguish between the composition and the sheet music, sound waves, instruments, ear drums and other contingent systems. Please describe a material property of Bach’s Invention No. 9.
 
Hold on a second. You have repeatedly said that it is obvious that all thought is part of a physical neurological system and that there is no evidence for any kind of supernatural reality. In response I gave the example of a piece of music by Bach that is immaterial and yet objectively real. If you disagree with this, you either have to show that the composition is material or that it is not real. When I ask what the volume of the composition is you call the question absurd, even though material things have volumes. You then say the composition is “abstract”. It turns out that “abstract” is a synonym for immaterial, so here you confirm my original argument. You are correct in saying that a sound vibration is produced when the composition is played, but if you read the last post carefully you will find that I distinguish between the composition and the sheet music, sound waves, instruments, ear drums and other contingent systems. Please describe a material property of Bach’s Invention No. 9.
I’ll try to clear up this misconception about what I think… bear with me. One definition of abstraction is the mechanism and practice to reduce and factor out details so that one can focus on a few concepts at a time.

Say outloud “I exist!”… are those words real or abstract. Well… they are both! You caused vibrations that can be recognised by other humans… the specific vibrations can be understood by you and others, not because it’s inherent but because we’ve taught our brains to process language early on. In this respect, we filter out all the gritty details and focus on the “abstract” words you’ve said, even though the vibration made, our ears receiving it, our brains interpreting it using pre-made adjustments due to neural learning etc are all technically physical events… it’s just silly to think about it that way because it’s so extremely complicated.
 
Say outloud “I exist!”… are those words real or abstract. Well… they are both! You caused vibrations that can be recognised by other humans… the specific vibrations can be understood by you and others, not because it’s inherent but because we’ve taught our brains to process language early on. In this respect, we filter out all the gritty details and focus on the “abstract” words you’ve said, even though the vibration made, our ears receiving it, our brains interpreting it using pre-made adjustments due to neural learning etc are all technically physical events… it’s just silly to think about it that way because it’s so extremely complicated.
It doesn’ t matter whether we use the word abstract, immaterial, or supernatural. In this context they all mean the same thing. To say that something is both real and abstract is to say that there is a supernatural reality. I agree that if someone shouts “I exist” there are a bunch of physical events taking place, but the important thing is that this can be shouted by hundreds of different people in hundreds of different languages, and in each case the physical events will differ but the idea will be identical. The thought “I exist” is unvarying, objectively demonstrable, and immaterial as a concept. I chose Bach’s music as an example of this because it also sounds different each time it is played, but a 17th century performer and a 20th century performer would agree that they were playing exactly the same immaterial creation. I can only imagine that Plato, Aquinas and others concluded that the mind was supernatural because they noticed that thoughts are supernatural. This is like observing that horses come from horses, or oranges from oranges. The claim that immaterial thoughts are produced by an entirely material system is a recent and unreasonable innovation. It has led to confusion and error in many areas of human life, a sign that perhaps we left the tracks somewhere around 1800.
 
It doesn’ t matter whether we use the word abstract, immaterial, or supernatural. In this context they all mean the same thing. To say that something is both real and abstract is to say that there is a supernatural reality. I agree that if someone shouts “I exist” there are a bunch of physical events taking place, but the important thing is that this can be shouted by hundreds of different people in hundreds of different languages, and in each case the physical events will differ but the idea will be identical. The thought “I exist” is unvarying, objectively demonstrable, and immaterial as a concept. I chose Bach’s music as an example of this because it also sounds different each time it is played, but a 17th century performer and a 20th century performer would agree that they were playing exactly the same immaterial creation. I can only imagine that Plato, Aquinas and others concluded that the mind was supernatural because they noticed that thoughts are supernatural. This is like observing that horses come from horses, or oranges from oranges. The claim that immaterial thoughts are produced by an entirely material system is a recent and unreasonable innovation. It has led to confusion and error in many areas of human life, a sign that perhaps we left the tracks somewhere around 1800.
Well, I think you are wrong there and I think you’re projecting your beliefs onto how you see reality. Keep in mind, I’m not trying to convince you, I was just explaining my view on the matter. Whether you disagree or not is up to you. Have a nice day 🙂
 
Your search on Google is sincerely appreciated, I have not done anything with personality; however, eventually I will get to it.

Getting access to the actual scientific research on the brain itself can be very difficult. What I have done with Google material is to pick out well known individuals and Google them. Sometimes, I get lucky following a trail of links. Currently, I am studying a specific area of evolutionary theory (the human species) and a couple of friends are helping me with research.

I can agree with you that atheism, itself, doesn’t have a “goal”. In the case of atheism, it is people who have goals. From reading different threads, I find that some consider atheism more of a “result.” Regarding humanism or relativism, there seems to be a lot of personal personality involved.

Like you, my goal is to find the honest truth. Just because I am older, doesn’t mean I have lost my curiosity about truth. I send you both blessings and good thoughts regarding your search.

I will be out of town until the middle of October. When traveling, I have to depend on finding a granny-friendly computer. Thus, I don’t know when I will be able to participate in this thread.

Blessings,
granny

John 3 16-17
Ok, thank you for your well wishes, and the same to you!
Since many emotions are produced by thoughts you need evidence that emotions originate in the brain…
Yes, and my evidence is the various ways that thought and personality are affected by physically changing the brain.
Thinking is tough to quantify because it’s entirely subjective. That is, we only know about someone else’s thoughts if they tell us about them. There’re still many unknowns in the area, but breakthroughs with new data seem to be happening every few weeks.
So how do we know that thoughts are produced by the brain?
(1) The earliest clues came from brain damaged people. If a certain part of the brain is damaged or destroyed, we lose specific abilities. Sachs writes a lot about such cases, damage cause by strokes, car wrecks, etc. and how it changes the lives of patients. You can actually predict with fair accuracy what abilities a person will lose if you know what part of the brain is damaged. More importantly, trauma can easily produce personality changes and other effects that would not happen if thought or personality existed outside of the brain cells. Nerve cells don’t regenerate, but sometimes the brain reroutes around the damaged area and the person returns to normal. Again, a very definite correlation between brain cells and personality/thoughts.
(2) Brain surgeons accidentally discovered that if they touched areas of the brain with electricity, it stimulated memories, smells, body sensations, etc. Again, specific areas of the brain produce specific effects. There is a definite 1-1 correlation between brain cell stimulation and subjective experiences, as reported by patients.
(3) New technology allows us to see the brain at work, the actual increase in electrical and chemical activity. Researchers ask subjects to perform a task, like working a math problem, then map the brains as they work. How do we know that the brain cell activity is not a side effect of thought rather than the producer of thought? Because cell activity begins before the thoughts do. For example, if you look at your right thumb and decide to move it, your brain has already sent the signal to the thumb before the “you” that processes information decides to move it.
That inner voice that we think of as “us” is actually a construct of many simultaneous brain activities. It’s sort of like the operating system in a computer. Many programs are running at the same time, but the “user” only sees the important things. When the brain crashes, due to fever, starvation, trauma, intoxication, etc., the “user” program is the first one to malfunction and we experience some of the background programs in a disorganized fashion.
Many religions encourage their members to experience being conscious but seeing behind the “user” program. They do this by sensory depravation (extreme mediation), starvation, exhaustion, and other ways to stress the body to the point where brain chemistry is messed up, but the person is still conscious. From this experience, we get the idea of life being an illusion (the “user” program) while the “real” events can only be experienced by muting the “self”
And so on.
unfacts.org/archive/philosophy/thinker.html
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tonyrey:
Why? There is obviously interaction between the mind and the brain.
Let me rephrase: Physically affecting the brain should not affect consciousness as much as it does. If one’s consciousness is significantly altered or damaged by damage to the brain, this suggests that consciousness is dependent on the brain.
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tonyrey:
It affects one’s ability to receive and communicate information.
It does more than just partially/completely shut a person off from the world - it actually massively disrupts their ability to think and reason.
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tonyrey:
That’s possible, but in the absence of evidence to show that emotions can be felt without brain chemistry, wouldn’t that suggest that emotions are entirely chemical?
 
Correlation does not entail causation.
(3) New technology allows us to see the brain at work, the actual increase in electrical and chemical activity. Researchers ask subjects to perform a task, like working a math problem, then map the brains as they work. How do we know that the brain cell activity is not a side effect of thought rather than the producer of thought? Because cell activity begins before the thoughts do. For example, if you look at your right thumb and decide to move it, your brain has already sent the signal to the thumb before the “you” that processes information decides to move it.
How can you possibly know precisely when a thought or decision occurs? Suppose you make a choice or decision which has no physical result - like choosing a topic to think about. When and where is the choice or decision located?
That inner voice that we think of as “us” is actually a construct of many simultaneous brain activities. It’s sort of like the operating system in a computer. Many programs are running at the same time, but the “user” only sees the important things. When the brain crashes, due to fever, starvation, trauma, intoxication, etc., the “user” program is the first one to malfunction and we experience some of the background programs in a disorganized fashion.
In that case how can “we” be rational, free to choose and responsible for our thoughts and actions?
Many religions encourage their members to experience being conscious but seeing behind the “user” program. They do this by sensory deprivation (extreme meditation), starvation, exhaustion, and other ways to stress the body to the point where brain chemistry is messed up, but the person is still conscious. From this experience, we get the idea of life being an illusion (the “user” program) while the “real” events can only be experienced by muting the “self”
What does that prove? 🙂
Physically affecting the brain should not affect consciousness as much as it does. If one’s consciousness is significantly altered or damaged by damage to the brain, this suggests that consciousness is dependent on the brain.
If you damage a guitar and it cannot be played does it show that the guitarist doesn’t exist and that there is no music? The brain is a physical mechanism not
a conscious**, responsible **agent.
It does more than just partially/completely shut a person off from the world - it actually massively disrupts their ability to think and reason.
It can prevent their ability to communicate altogether but that does not mean the person ceases to exist. Does he/she lose the right to life in such a situation?
*Because we are psycho-physical beings! *
That’s possible, but in the absence of evidence to show that emotions can be felt without brain chemistry, wouldn’t that suggest that emotions are entirely chemical?
Not at all. Emotions obviously have an effect on the body but they do not always originate in the body. We can choose to think about a subject and induce an emotion without there being a physical cause.
 
How can you possibly know precisely when a thought or decision occurs? Suppose you make a choice or decision which has no physical result - like choosing a topic to think about. When and where is the choice or decision located?
“Where” is definitely in your head; your head is where thoughts live and thinking is what heads do. “When” is a little bit trickier because thought is the fastest thing we human beings do, however, it’s approximately when you were aware of the decision, give or take one or two milliseconds.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Well, I think you are wrong there and I think you’re projecting your beliefs onto how you see reality. Keep in mind, I’m not trying to convince you, I was just explaining my view on the matter. Whether you disagree or not is up to you. Have a nice day 🙂
And you are projecting your beliefs as well. One of these is that nothing exists except “matter,” which however you accepts as an undefined term. But Bishop Berkeley pointed out the inconsistencies that develop if one hinges everything on matter when one cannot really define it. If you are dislike the idea of a spiritual substance, then the Pythagorean notion of everything as number makes as much sense of defining everything as matter.
 
“Where” is definitely in your head; your head is where thoughts live and thinking is what heads do. “When” is a little bit trickier because thought is the fastest thing we human beings do, however, it’s approximately when you were aware of the decision, give or take one or two milliseconds.

ICXC NIKA.
A thought is as much in the fingers of a violinist as in his brain. The Body is a unit, and the brain(s) is(are) simply part of the whole.
 
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