The Soul and the Brain

[liquidpele]

Are you arguing that we should treat primates as if they too had a soul because they ‘may’ (it’s not certain) have the potential to evolve (which takes millenia) advanced intellectual capacities?

That reminds me of a joke from the UK version of The Office “My uncle would be my Aunt if he didn’t have testicles”.

Hahaha… Gotta love a person who brings up the office in conversation!

but no, that’s not what I meant. First off, other Catholics have told me on here that animals already have souls, they just aren’t eternal ones (which is kind of a cop-out to me, but oh well). Second, I’m not talking about souls anyway as I don’t believe in them. I’m talking about cognitive ability. The overall point was that our brains aren’t really that “different” than many animal brains… but then again, what a huge advantage our extra ability makes!

 

[mangy_dog]

I once read that the will is not in the brain. By stimulating various areas of the brain scientists can make various things occur; such as moving an arm. But the person knows that that was not their will but an action imposed on them. They have not found a way to stimulate the will; that is make a person believe that the motion was of their own volition.

My thought is that, in computer terms, the brain has the memory banks and (name removed by moderator)ut/output devices. The CPU is in the soul. [Just my speculation. I can cite no reference or authority.}

I’m with you Joe in that, the body is a complete operating system but requires the soul to operate it down to all the senses and extremities.

The main areas of the body, without which we cannot sustain physical life, are the areas that we associate with “a warm fuzzy feeling” , happiness, sadness etc. we feel mostly in our chest - our heart.
Moments of revelation, learning, discovery we feel mostly in our head - brain.
That creepy feeling, being startled, feeling a chill etc. we feel all over - tingling.

The soul is in touch with the entire physical being, it operates it fully and completely to include when we have an accident and loose a finger or a limb…for a certain period thereafter, we still feel the finger or limb as if it were still there because the soul remembers and extends to that area that is no longer there.
The soul extends just beyond our physical body when we sense that someone is standing close to us, whether its by our 5 senses or by that “feeling” that somene is watching or close by.
[/quote]

 

[grannymh]

I am curious about the Catholic Church’s position on the relation of the brain and the soul. There have been many different views on this, by Catholics and scientists, throughout history, ranging from that there is no soul, just the brain, to the brain is essentially irrelevant and all psychological functions are based in the soul. What view does the Church espouse regarding this topic, and/or what is your personal opinion on it?

Recently, I had a retired professor of philosophy gently point out that I was
leaning toward the philosophy of dualism regarding my concept of soul and body. That is not the Catholic position. The truth is that our human nature is an intimate union of both spiritual and corporal components.

The human being is more like chocolate chip cookie dough of flour and brown sugar. Look at it. Taste it. Can the dough be divided back into the original items? Would we be happy if the cookie came out of the oven, warm and smelling so inviting, but instead of melting chips, there were only one pile of flour and one pile of brown sugar.

As bakers, we may put flour in first and then the brown sugar. We do each
separately because we have to measure the amounts. When God created us, did He
need to look at a recipe? God saw us as a complete human being so at once we
were the perfect mixture of dough in God’s hands. The human being came into
being as body and soul instantly. God saw us as good and smiled.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

 

[Ginkgo100]

I am curious about the Catholic Church’s position on the relation of the brain and the soul. There have been many different views on this, by Catholics and scientists, throughout history, ranging from that there is no soul, just the brain, to the brain is essentially irrelevant and all psychological functions are based in the soul. What view does the Church espouse regarding this topic, and/or what is your personal opinion on it?

I’m not sure how much the Church has defined on this topic, since brain science is developing by leaps and bounds every day. Besides, science per se is not the concern of the Church, and the Vatican would likely be loathe to issue a pronouncement that is dependent on scientists’ fragile and ever-changing view of nature.

As a science/faith blogger, here’s my outlook:

God created humans such that we each have a spiritual soul with free will, but the soul requires the use of the body to exercise that free will (at least before death). Thus I cannot choose to walk across the room if my body suffers from paralysis; no matter how strongly the soul wills it, it is subject to the limitations of the body. Likewise if my will is to lift a 150-pound weight, I cannot do it because my body is not strong enough—although in this case, I can use my will to do strength training so that eventually I will be able to lift it.

Furthermore, though, the body actually influences the choices made by the soul’s free will. If I am paralyzed, I will become less likely to futitely will myself to walk across the room. I am more likely to choose more practical things: to use a wheelchair to move across the room, or to ask others for assistance with whatever is out of reach.

The brain is another part of the body. Even moreso than the other members, it influences the choices made by the soul’s free will. The hardwired instincts, the emotions, and all the other physical accidents of the brain both limit the ability of the soul to do whatever it wills (hence the aphorism "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak) and influence the choices the soul makes (a mood, a fear, an instinct can all shape the will). In the most extreme cases, a brain suffering organic damage can paralyze the soul’s free will (temporarily—it will be released at death if the brain does not heal sooner), as in dementia or trauma. But the brain is not the soul, only the organ that most influences it.

I think this is why the Church now recognizes that not all people who commit suicide and die before they can repent are necessarily damned. Most suicides suffer from severe mental illness, and their free will may be paralyzed by a brain that has gone out of control. They may be no more guilty than a person who dies because his heart goes out of control and defibrillates, or whose liver goes out of control and poisons the blood.

 

[melissa1980]

Recently, I had a retired professor of philosophy gently point out that I was
leaning toward the philosophy of dualism regarding my concept of soul and body. That is not the Catholic position. The truth is that our human nature is an intimate union of both spiritual and corporal components.

The human being is more like chocolate chip cookie dough of flour and brown sugar. Look at it. Taste it. Can the dough be divided back into the original items? Would we be happy if the cookie came out of the oven, warm and smelling so inviting, but instead of melting chips, there were only one pile of flour and one pile of brown sugar.

As bakers, we may put flour in first and then the brown sugar. We do each
separately because we have to measure the amounts. When God created us, did He
need to look at a recipe? God saw us as a complete human being so at once we
were the perfect mixture of dough in God’s hands. The human being came into
being as body and soul instantly. God saw us as good and smiled.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

Thank you, Granny, words well written as if my own now deceased grandmother had written them. A duality blended to a singularity, exhibiting at once body and soul, the corporeal existence, found from a cookie recipe.

 

[shoewindow3000]

If you smash a radio open, do you find a little band playing inside? When you look at all of the components and consider how they interconnect and work with one another, do you think to yourself,
“Ahh, so THIS is how music is created!”? (A scientist in the 17th century might)

OR…maybe you would think to yourself,
“Maybe these parts do not create the music; instead, maybe these parts, when working together, simply act to receive the song-the song is created elsewhere.”

Now, if you were to examine a human brain, and you saw all of the little “parts” working together, do you think to yourself,
“Ahh, so THIS is how consciousness is created!”? (A scientist in the 21st century might)

OR…maybe you would think to yourself,
"Maybe these parts do not create consciousness themselves; instead, maybe these parts, when working together…

What about so-called “out of body experiences,” where people say they have seen paramedics work on their body “from above,” or can even recall watching surgeons operating on their bodies, even describing the tools they saw?
Skeptics write them off as hallucinations or dreams, but which skeptic has ever experienced one before? How does a “dream,” or a “hallucination” occur when there is no blood in the brain for a few hours? (which happened to several people who later came back to life).

Besides, if a soul is a non-physical thing, then science can never observe it, because science is the study of the physical world.
After all, a geologist wouldn’t be an expert in political science or sociology! (It is not that they contradict, they just are two different things, like cheeseburgers and pencil sharpeners.)

One more thing…I have experience with supernatural happenings, so I know for a fact it is real!

there is a “haunted house” in my family. Many members of my family, grandmother, aunts, etc. and I personally, have seen supernatural phenomena on many occasions.
I am not talking about shadows either-I am talking about levitating off of a bed, black figures, shadowy orbs in the corner of ceilings, objects flying, being slammed in the back by doors(not just one slam either-about 10 in a row!), and your mother calling you downstairs after shortly you get home from school-only to realize that you are home alone and she is working until 8:00 pm. I am not lying when I say these things have happened either!
Do you know what it is like to wake up at 4 in the morning to a growling sound, then when you look at your feet, you see an apparition of your dead dog foaming at the mouth and growling at you?!
When I hear skeptics speak of something they know NOTHING about…I don’t know whether to get mad, have pity for them, or just laugh about them!

 

[scameter18]

Grannymh,

Thank you for replying. Based on your message, then, what attributes would you say defines what the soul is, even if it is inextricably connected to the body? Furthermore, do you think the soul can be separated from the body?

Ginkgo100,

That’s highly interesting, and thank you for your reply. I especially like how you synthesize science with faith so well. I am curious though: do you think, based on your post, that free will is necessarily seated in the soul? I don’t mean it’s physical influences, but I mean the willful act of choice itself. Some neurologists and psychologists say choice is apart of the brain, but what is your opinion? Furthermore, do you see a connection between free will/choice and consciousness, since we are unable to choose anything for our body unless we are awake? And if so, do you think consciousness has a neural or soul basis?

 

[Fran65]

being slammed in the back by doors(not just one slam either-about 10 in a row!)

I think I would have moved out of the way after the first one.

What you decribe sounds very frightening. I hope that you recite St Michael’s prayer for protection and your family consider taking advice from a suitably qualified priest.

God Bless

 

[shoewindow3000]

I think I would have moved out of the way after the first one.

What you decribe sounds very frightening. I hope that you recite St Michael’s prayer for protection and your family consider taking advice from a suitably qualified priest.

God Bless

I don’t live there anymore. I moved out around 2004.

 

[Donelle]

The way I feel is that your soul is your pesonality,we all have a brain and they are the same to a docter .our personalitys are different

 

[mangy_dog]

This thread reminds me of that show…

Sooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuullllllllllllllllllll Brian.

oh, sorry.

 

[mikespenard]

Recently, I had a retired professor of philosophy gently point out that I was
leaning toward the philosophy of dualism regarding my concept of soul and body. That is not the Catholic position. The truth is that our human nature is an intimate union of both spiritual and corporal components.

The human being is more like chocolate chip cookie dough of flour and brown sugar. Look at it. Taste it. Can the dough be divided back into the original items? Would we be happy if the cookie came out of the oven, warm and smelling so inviting, but instead of melting chips, there were only one pile of flour and one pile of brown sugar.

As bakers, we may put flour in first and then the brown sugar. We do each
separately because we have to measure the amounts. When God created us, did He
need to look at a recipe? God saw us as a complete human being so at once we
were the perfect mixture of dough in God’s hands. The human being came into
being as body and soul instantly. God saw us as good and smiled.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

From: memeoid.net/books/Spenard/Spenard-Dueling_with%20Dualism-DRAFT.pdf

“”
In the twilight preceding the dawn of early Christianity many doctrines on soul-body duality had been circulating without much gen-eral consensus. Jewish theologians interpreted their sacred books, such as Genesis, to assert or imply the distinct existence of a soul. Later on, the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria (20 BC - AD 50) took Plato’s ideas and infused them into Jewish thought in what would become early Christianity. In addition to the implied dualism of early Jewish texts the philosophy of Christian “New Testament” gospels can be found to make clear assertions of this nature.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

In the teachings of St. Paul (? – 64 AD) and the Gnostics, is found a further developed trichotomous doctrine where man consists of three parts (paralleling the doctrine of the “Holy Trinity” with the Father, Son and Holy-Spirit): soma, psyche, and pneuma (body, soul and spirit). With body and soul being entities of the natural physical world and the spirit being attributed as an immaterial property of the Christian alone. In the early “Middle Ages” a consensus solidified around Plato’s ideas with some minor modifications; in what is a doctrine referred to as Neoplatonism (Whittaker 1901). Later Chris-tian thinkers, such as Thomas Aquinas (1225 AD – 1274 AD), following Neoplatonism into a Neoaristotelian doctrine, retained the idea of a human being as a three-way constituency of the body, immaterial soul and spirit. However, in a proposal akin to the ideas of Aristotle, Aquinas maintained the idea that it was only through the soul’s con-junction with the manifest human body that the soul could be said to be a person. The soul (or form) could exist independently of the body but the soul by itself could not constitute a person, and that upon the end of one’s corporeal existence all things formed from the conjunc-tion of soul and body, such as personal memories, were discontinued (Aquinas 1981). Modern day Christianity has different views on this point of conjunction. The Catholic Church’s official doctrine asserts that the reunification of the mind, soul and body (i.e. psyche, pneuma and soma) will take place at the “Second Coming of Christ”, where upon the person will then go to a realm of eternal bliss or damnation. Therefore, within the Catholic Church there is a strong inseparability of mind, body and soul strongly comparable to the views expressed by Aquinas and Aristotle . And the various other denominations of Christianity (whether Protestant , Baptist, Anglican or the Orthodox-ies) profess a belief in a variant of a dualistic doctrine as part of their catechism.

2 “Apostles’ Creed", Catechism of the Catholic Church.
3 Protestants reject this strong inseparability.

. . .

Briefly, saying a person is a “union” doesn’t do away with any of the problems of dualism, as it is still advocated that ‘reasons’, ‘feelings’ and ‘subjective experiences’ etc are non-physical within the conceptual framework being used by most Christians (its called hylomorphism; which comes from Aristotle). And it creates the same egregious sets of questions and really answers nothing on our nature and does little more then putting the subject under study outside the reach of science.

 

[grannymh]

Grannymh,

Thank you for replying. Based on your message, then, what attributes would you say defines what the soul is, even if it is inextricably connected to the body? Furthermore, do you think the soul can be separated from the body?

The soul signifies the spiritual component of the person. Its basic attributes are our intellect and will. We are spiritual so that God’s life, His grace, can be within us. Our intellect and will uses our brain and body when we think about options for action and when we choose or don’t choose a specific option. Death is when the soul separates from the body.

The following is a handy link to the Catholic Catechism.

 

[grannymh]

From: memeoid.net/books/Spenard/Spenard-Dueling_with%20Dualism-DRAFT.pdf

Briefly, saying a person is a “union” doesn’t do away with any of the problems of dualism, as it is still advocated that ‘reasons’, ‘feelings’ and ‘subjective experiences’ etc are non-physical within the conceptual framework being used by most Christians (its called hylomorphism; which comes from Aristotle). And it creates the same egregious sets of questions and really answers nothing on our nature and does little more then putting the subject under study outside the reach of science.

I do have your link bookmarked, needing time to read it thoroughly because I also have questions on dualism. For example, I would like to know how Thomas Aquinas handled hylomorphism via his Aristotelian studies.

From a common sense standpoint, the problem of dualism will never be conquered. The question therefore is how do we understand its variety of forms. Understanding the human person as a singular being with the inherent blended plurality of two sacred components of soul and body does answer the question- what is human nature. This is in spite of the fact that one of the original meanings of dualism is that of the antagonistic forces of good and evil.

Common sense and simple observation of life tell us that the components soul and body are complex in themselves and complex in their relationship. This does not mean that we give up attempts at understanding but rather that we accept the fact that complete understanding may not be possible in this life.

At the moment my interest in the brain is its material aspect rather than philosophical. Thus, I chose to present a simple concept.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

 

[PJM]

=scameter-I am curious about the Catholic Church’s position on the relation of the brain and the soul. There have been many different views on this, by Catholics and scientists, throughout history, ranging from that there is no soul, just the brain, to the brain is essentially irrelevant and all psychological functions are based in the soul. What view does the Church espouse regarding this topic, and/or what is your personal opinion on it?

As worded the question is highly secular. A “brain” is “physical matter” while a “soul” is a “spiritual Thing.” One can see, touch, quantify a “brain”, however a “soul” cannot be quantified, and it is a spiritual thing.

The question would be more revelant to the CC and this discussion if reworded to "what is the purpose of mans mind, intellect, freewill and soul?"

While one can demonistrate and thus prove the existence of mans “mind”, mans “intellect”, mans “freewill” eventhough they are all SPIRITUAL THINGS. It is because they exit and can be proven to exist, that one is able to conclude that man also has "a SOUL."

The first point then is to ask what is the Origin of these Spiritual THINGS?

What is, is
What is not, is not
Something can only be what it is
Something cannot be what it is not
Something can only share what it has
Something cannot share what it does not have

Thus physical can beget something physical, but not something SPITITUAL, which must originate from something Spiritual. This Spiritual enity is what we choose to call GOD!

Because by proper application of these spiritual things [gifts from God] man is able to ask the next question. “Why is man gifted with such wonderous gifts?” Logically we have them for both general and specific reasons?

The Church guided by Christ and the Holy Spirit supplies the answer, and cannot be in error on this teaching!*** John 17:14 "I [Jesus] have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth*. **

***The reasons are as follows. As evidenced by Church History [OT and NT] God desires a personal relationship with man.

Man was created precisely with the ability to [freely choose] to know, love and serve God
in this life., so that we might be happy with Him in the next.

Two facts suported by Biblical evoence that Protestants tend to gloss-over are: 1. The Incarnation had as its purpose to allow man to know God in a MOST personal way, and through this knowledge come to understand that God Created man in His very image, so that by properly applying our minds, intellects and freewill, we could know God, Love God, Praise God and serve God. Such is the precise purpose of our Creation.

1. By His life, Death, and Ressurection, Jesus “REDEENED US!” Redemption" and “salvation” are seperate Facts, seperate factors and seperate realities. Redemption only un;ocked the gates of heaven, that had been closed from the Orginal sin od Adam and Eve. One must still work out ones salvation in accordance for Gods indivivual plan for each of us.Phil.2: 12: *** 12 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;**** for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. **

Love and prayers friend,

 

[scameter18]

PJM,

My question was not secular. It was scientific and philosophical, and I am Catholic so I have no interest in the secular by itself. But science is not an exclusively secular field. I did not want to inquire about the nature of man’s soul, but rather the specific question of it’s relation to the brain. Furthermore, I never said that something spiritual can come from something physical; that is illogical. I was trying to determine what exactly constitutes the soul and could those attributes be aspects of the brain, or are they necessarily in the soul, and also what of the common view of the soul is opinion and what is Catholic dogma.

 

[grannymh]

PJM,

My question was not secular. It was scientific and philosophical, and I am Catholic so I have no interest in the secular by itself. But science is not an exclusively secular field. I did not want to inquire about the nature of man’s soul, but rather the specific question of it’s relation to the brain. Furthermore, I never said that something spiritual can come from something physical; that is illogical. I was trying to determine what exactly constitutes the soul and could those attributes be aspects of the brain, or are they necessarily in the soul, and also what of the common view of the soul is opinion and what is Catholic dogma.

Re: What is the relationship of soul to brain. First. One should consider the brain as part of the material component of human nature and the soul as the spiritual component of human nature. While different, corporal and the spiritual components are not separate as in dualism, but are intimately united into the singularity of person. Back in post 42, I compared this unity to chocolate chip cookie dough. Thus the answer to the question of relationship is that it is a united relationship.

Re: What constitutes the soul? Basically the soul consists of all that is spiritual within us starting with the life of God. The primary faculties of the soul are the intellect and will.

Re: Could those attributes [of the soul] be aspects of the brain? Answer- no.
The spiritual soul and the physical brain cannot be interchanged. However, because the spiritual and material are intimately united, the soul uses the material brain and body to function in the material world and to gain eternal life with God.

Re: As to common view of soul, I’ve never had casual conversations about the soul, so I can’t answer what is opinion and what is dogma. If you give me an example, I may be able to help discern it.

For Catholic teaching on soul, please put soul in the search box of the following link. There are 10 pages of references.
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Re: What is the relationship of soul to brain. First. One should consider the brain as part of the material component of human nature and the soul as the spiritual component of human nature. While different, corporal and the spiritual components are not separate as in dualism, but are intimately united into the singularity of person. Back in post 42, I compared this unity to chocolate chip cookie dough. Thus the answer to the question of relationship is that it is a united relationship.

Re: What constitutes the soul? Basically the soul consists of all that is spiritual within us starting with the life of God. The primary faculties of the soul are the intellect and will.

Re: Could those attributes [of the soul] be aspects of the brain? Answer- no.
The spiritual soul and the physical brain cannot be interchanged.

Granny i don’t want you to think that i am raining on your parade, neither am i suggesting that i hold to any particular position when i say the following (which may or may not be a straw-man)…

I paraphrase that you are claiming that the soul and the brain are not two separate substances interacting, but are instead one united whole. You also claim that what we call the soul is what we characterize as the intellect and will. But then you say that the intellect and will is precisely that which is not the brain.

How can you not be some kind of substance-dualist if you are claiming that the soul is qualitatively and quantitatively different from the brain? To me, in my mind, saying that the brain and the mind are one, is in a sense holding to some kind of monism.

Let me see if you can think your way out of that one…. hehe haha.

 

[grannymh]

Granny i don’t want you to think that i am raining on your parade, neither am i suggesting that i hold to any particular position when i say the following (which may or may not be a straw-man)…

Nice to hear from you MindOverMatter.

I’ll try to respond adequately to your statements.

I paraphrase that you are claiming that the soul and the brain are not two separate substances interacting, but are instead one united whole.

I am not sure if you are using substance in the Thomistic sense, but in any case I did not use substance. I used material component and spiritual component. The car has different components; yet we consider it as a whole machine when we want to go somewhere.

You also claim that what we call the soul is what we characterize as the intellect and will. But then you say that the intellect and will is precisely that which is not the brain.

One can look at this in a different way by saying that the intellect and will are spiritual which means they are part of the spiritual soul. Since the brain is material, it is not spiritual. Therefore the spiritual intellect and will is not the material brain.

How can you not be some kind of substance-dualist if you are claiming that the soul is qualitatively and quantitatively different from the brain?

First. What were my words regarding qualitatively and quantitatively? Personally, I believe that the human being is par excellence. Second. I did not use substance so where did the idea of substance-dualist come from?

To me, in my mind, saying that the brain and the mind are one, is in a sense holding to some kind of monism.

According to my handy dictionary, that sounds about right.

Let me see if you can think your way out of that one…. hehe haha.

By the way, I am totally uncoordinated qualitatively and quantitatively which makes for lots of hehe haha.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect.

 

[scameter18]

Grannymh,

Thanks for the quotes, and the site reference. That’ll definitely help.

MindOverMatter,

It seems to me that the quotes she gave were saying that while the soul and brain are different in attributes, they are not separate. They are not like water on stone, two separate but interacting substances. Rather, they are like water in rice. When they mix, they are still different, but they form a fuller, new product. Probably not the best analogy, but you hopefully get the point.