The soul as "form" of the body?

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What does it mean to say the human soul is the form of the body?
I try my best to research Catholic definitions of the soul, and the mental image I have of “form” is as if the soul is to water as the body is to a cup. But a soul is not material, and so is not “within” or extended in space, right?

So what does it actually mean to say the soul is the form of the body? What is the soul?

If it is the “form” of the body, how can exist independently of the body (e.g., death)?
 
I guess it’s just a matter of taking ‘made in God’s image and likeness’ and applying it to the soul.

Noting that ‘image’ does not equal ‘matter’.

Take care,

mike
 
Things have categories. There is the form of a hydrogen atom. The form of a dihydrogen monoxide molecule. The form of a rose. The form of a dog. The form of a human being.

Each category shares the same form. What differentiates individuals within the same form is the matter that makes it up.

All material beings are two co-principles, neither of which can naturally come into being on its own without the other: form and matter. You cannot have matter without form (aka prime matter) or form without matter. The soul isn’t itself some immaterial thing driving or cohering to the matter, it is just a principle by which a being must exist. It is also related to essence (there’s a higher level of co-principles within Thomism: essence and existence. Form and essence are pretty much the same, but we use form for material beings in which multiple individuals exist within the same category).

Now we arrive at the puzzling aspect of the human being and the “immortal soul” and what happens after death. All other beings, living or not, have their forms disappear after death/destruction. They do not persist immaterially.

What’s different about humans? Our rational minds. All other processes can be explained materially. However, the rational mind includes immaterial processes. Again, this is not some ghost controlling the material body, but immaterial processes working with and relying on material processes in tandem, bothing making up the functioning of a rational human being.

I’m going to sidestep a moment. If I cut off your hand, the rest of your body would still have the form of a human being, even missing the part or function granted by this hand. If I cut off all of your limbs, the remaining living parts that persists as the self would still have the form of a human being. If I were to cut you off from the neck down, leaving only the head kept alive by machinery, the persistent self that remains, acting as one whole being, would retain the form of the human being. What happens at death? It’s like cutting off the rest of the material parts. They no longer persist as the self, but the mind does. And the mind retains the form of a human being. It’s the immaterial mind that retains the form.

There’s actually some debate in Thomism on this last point. I disagree with the next part, but some say that this immaterial mind can no longer properly be called a human being in the way I said it when devoid of all matter, but that it will still exist and eventually be restored to the body Still, I gave my thoughts on that above.

I think a mind deprived of all its material senses would be quite handicapped. It’s not a ghost that would be suddenly freed from material and suddenly gains new powers and is unbound by material limits. That would be silly. It would lose its natural sources of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, for one. What I would say is that, through divine intervention and sustenance, the impact of such handicaps, while they still exist, are incomparible to the glory of what God can give.

Anyway, I went a little off topic on form. I suggest picking up Edward Feser’s short book, Aquinas. I hope others can explain it better.

Oh, and whenever I talked about the form of a plant or a dog or a human, you can substitute the word soul. A soul is just the proper word used for form when the being in question is alive.
 
An additional comment.

At the higher level, existence is the co-principle in which all beings are the same. Essence is the co-principle in which all different types of beings differ. Thus we can say, “this being is not that being.” Essence explains how our existence is manifested

However, at the lower level, form/essence is the co-principle by which all beings within the same category are the same, and matter is the co-principle by which we can say “this dog is not that dog.” Material limits us to particular space and time.

There’s more to be said about actuality and potentiality, with actuality explaining how a single being is different then versus now (before and after a change), with potentiality being the link showing how this being now is also the same being that existed five minutes ago, but that’s a further digression off topic…
 
Things have categories. There is the form of a hydrogen atom. The form of a dihydrogen monoxide molecule. The form of a rose. The form of a dog. The form of a human being.

Each category shares the same form. What differentiates individuals within the same form is the matter that makes it up.

All material beings are two co-principles, neither of which can naturally come into being on its own without the other: form and matter. You cannot have matter without form (aka prime matter) or form without matter. The soul isn’t itself some immaterial thing driving or cohering to the matter, it is just a principle by which a being must exist. It is also related to essence (there’s a higher level of co-principles within Thomism: essence and existence. Form and essence are pretty much the same, but we use form for material beings in which multiple individuals exist within the same category).

Now we arrive at the puzzling aspect of the human being and the “immortal soul” and what happens after death. All other beings, living or not, have their forms disappear after death/destruction. They do not persist immaterially.

What’s different about humans? Our rational minds. All other processes can be explained materially. However, the rational mind includes immaterial processes. Again, this is not some ghost controlling the material body, but immaterial processes working with and relying on material processes in tandem, bothing making up the functioning of a rational human being.

I’m going to sidestep a moment. If I cut off your hand, the rest of your body would still have the form of a human being, even missing the part or function granted by this hand. If I cut off all of your limbs, the remaining living parts that persists as the self would still have the form of a human being. If I were to cut you off from the neck down, leaving only the head kept alive by machinery, the persistent self that remains, acting as one whole being, would retain the form of the human being. What happens at death? It’s like cutting off the rest of the material parts. They no longer persist as the self, but the mind does. And the mind retains the form of a human being. It’s the immaterial mind that retains the form.

There’s actually some debate in Thomism on this last point. I disagree with the next part, but some say that this immaterial mind can no longer properly be called a human being in the way I said it when devoid of all matter, but that it will still exist and eventually be restored to the body Still, I gave my thoughts on that above.

I think a mind deprived of all its material senses would be quite handicapped. It’s not a ghost that would be suddenly freed from material and suddenly gains new powers and is unbound by material limits. That would be silly. It would lose its natural sources of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut, for one. What I would say is that, through divine intervention and sustenance, the impact of such handicaps, while they still exist, are incomparible to the glory of what God can give.

Anyway, I went a little off topic on form. I suggest picking up Edward Feser’s short book, Aquinas. I hope others can explain it better.

Oh, and whenever I talked about the form of a plant or a dog or a human, you can substitute the word soul. A soul is just the proper word used for form when the being in question is alive.
Nice description! Thanks. I still need to ponder it some more.

However, if the form of something is not actually a “thing,” then in what sense does the human soul exist on its own? Is the human soul a substance? Can it be found in a place?
 
Nice description! Thanks. I still need to ponder it some more.

However, if the form of something is not actually a “thing,” then in what sense does the human soul exist on its own? Is the human soul a substance? Can it be found in a place?
It is not a substance and does not exist in a place. What does persist on its own after death is the mind, which persists with the form/soul of a human being. That is, the immaterial mind can still properly be called a human being (and not categorized as some other substance) because it retains the form of a human being. It’s just severely handicapped, like a dog without a tail or any limbs, but even nore handicapped than that. The mind being an immaterial thing, does not properly exist in space or time either. However, it does exist, and I think here we need to think of its existence as being in certain states, but not being in a specific proper place or time. Kind of like God.

Similar to the angels, too, though angels can apparently manifest themselves in such ways at specific places in space and time, though I would not say they exist in it or normally can be locked down to any one point.
 
It is not a substance and does not exist in a place. What does persist on its own after death is the mind, which persists with the form/soul of a human being. That is, the immaterial mind can still properly be called a human being (and not categorized as some other substance). It’s just severely handicapped, like a dog without a tail or any limbs, but even nore handicapped than that. The mind being an immaterial thing, does not properly exist in space or time either. However, it does exist, and I think here we need to think of its existence as being in certain states, but not being in a specific proper place or time. Kind of like God.

Similar to the angels, too, though angels can apparently manifest themselves in such ways at specific places in space and time, though I would not say they exist in it or normally can be locked down to any one point.
Sorry for the continual questions.

So if the soul/mind is not a substance and does not exist like a “thing” in space, then what does it mean for the mind to “persist” after death? It still exists, but what does this mean? I guess I have a hard time imagining something that exists yet cannot be pointed to.
 
Sorry for the continual questions.

So if the soul/mind is not a substance and does not exist like a “thing” in space, then what does it mean for the mind to “persist” after death? It still exists, but what does this mean? I guess I have a hard time imagining something that exists yet cannot be pointed to.
What about God?

Sorry for the short answer, but honest question. Do you see him as a substance extending throughout space? That was something St. Augustine grappled with, but he eventually overcame it. Can God the Father be pointed to in any way?

Oh, and it’s your topic and these are good questions! Don’t feel like you have to apologize!
 
What about God?

Sorry for the short answer, but honest question. Do you see him as a substance extending throughout space? That was something St. Augustine grappled with, but he eventually overcame it. Can God the Father be pointed to in any way?

Oh, and it’s your topic and these are good questions! Don’t feel like you have to apologize!
It’s a conceptual thing for me, or I mean visualizing or imagining it, because for God, I’ve always had ways of thinking about it, for he is complete unity - existence itself, being etc. But there are as many human souls as there are persons, so it’s hard for me to think of so many finite “forms” or minds that exist out there, without being in places or having matter.

I guess another way of putting it is: How can spirit, with no parts, think or will? I guess this would apply to God too…

Thanks for your help 👍
 
It’s a conceptual thing for me, or I mean visualizing or imagining it, because for God, I’ve always had ways of thinking about it, for he is complete unity - existence itself, being etc. But there are as many human souls as there are persons, so it’s hard for me to think of so many finite “forms” or minds that exist out there, without being in places or having matter.

I guess another way of putting it is: How can spirit, with no parts, think or will? I guess this would apply to God too…

Thanks for your help 👍
It’s the mind that is able to grasp the forms of other objects, and which is able to provide interpretation to patterns that, without a mind, are themselves devoid of any meaning. These are things that only the mind can do and no material processes can explain. The mind should still be able to carry out these processes without any body, or at least, have the potential to.

Carrying out what I know from Thomism, though, the human mind would be in a pitiful state if left to its natural processes but without any material body. It would not be receiving any additional sense (name removed by moderator)ut or other familiar material processes to which it has an interdependence with. Indeed, how could it receive any information which it could interpret? I imagine that a disembodied mind would largely be “in the dark” or comatose if left to its natural devices, barring some external action/support by a being like God. This paragraph is my own conclusion. I think it follows from my studies so far, but I haven’t seen it directly stated by any Thomists I’m aware of, so please take it with a grain of salt. But in short, I think the human mind, without any support from God, would be very limited in what it could think at all. Perhaps it would simply only know what it already knew.

God is different, though, in a few aspects. For one, he is, by nature, a completely immaterial being. Whatever limitations exist on us as composite material and immaterial beings would not necessarily apply to him. Furthermore, I’m not sure it’s accurate to say that God thinks… at least not in the way we think. God simply knows, and wills, in one single, eternal act of his immaterial being.

That probably doesn’t help conceptualize it. To be honest, I’m not sure it’s something that can be completely conceptualized given that our entire living experience relies on the material parts of our nature. I’d be interested if anyone else is able to assist with this. I would like to say, though, that I don’t see anything contradictory or impossible in this. Simply something that’s hard to visualize.

Ah, speaking of that. Visualization is not the same as grasping a concept. I know perfectly well what a chiliagon is: It’s a shape with 1,000 sides. However, is my visualization of a chiliagon any different than my visualization of of a 998 sided object or a 1,002 sided object? No. My imagination isn’t able to conjure up an image that specific. I’m envious of anybody’s whose imagination can, but if so, I’m sure you could just increase the number of sides of the example until you find another case in which visualization just isn’t possible for that person. Still, regardless of whether we are able to visualize it, we are able to grasp the concept perfectly well.
 
Wi-fi is not a thing, yet exists. If mankind can make all this info go through thin air, then how much more can God do?
 
Wi-fi is not a thing, yet exists. If mankind can make all this info go through thin air, then how much more can God do?
Well, I’m not sure this is the best example. Wi-fi is electromagnetic radiation flying through the air at certain frequencies, with various amplitudes or whatever. Energy and matter are convertible with each other, too. EM waves/particles are “things.” I want to be careful not to equate immaterial beings/things (God, angels, mind) with things like EM radiation.
 
You are in good company in not fully understanding this.

“Form of the body” is an Aquinianism that is really not used in modern terms; it does **not **imply a body shape or human moldline, or skin-shaped solid, as we would understand the word “form” in modern English. Most speakers of modern English do not speak Aquinas.

Rather, it should be understood as a spiritual principle (the life) which animates the body, and in fact, makes the heap of flesh a human body. Although it therefore fills the body, it is not physical and so has no shape per se.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Well, I’m not sure this is the best example. Wi-fi is electromagnetic radiation flying through the air at certain frequencies, with various amplitudes or whatever. Energy and matter are convertible with each other, too. EM waves/particles are “things.” I want to be careful not to equate immaterial beings/things (God, angels, mind) with things like EM radiation.
WI-FI is not a “thing” in the sense of being a solid, as we normally think of “things”, but it is definitely physical. Try again.

ICXC NIKA
 
WI-FI is not a “thing” in the sense of being a solid, as we normally think of “things”, but it is definitely physical. Try again.

ICXC NIKA
They are not physical. However, they do require a physical medium to move through, like a wave moves through water.
 
catholic1seeks, I find Edward Feser’s blog to be an excellent easy resource for insight into Aristotlean-Thomism. Here’s a few entries which are pertinent to the topic:

edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2012/03/what-is-soul.html?m=1

edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/03/so-what-are-you-doing-after-your-funeral.html?m=1

This last one is the third entry in a back and forth discussion, but he links to the past posts right at the beginning.
edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/08/vallicella-on-hylemorphic-dualism-part_25.html?m=1

I should be clear that these entries assume some points as givens and merely elaborate on the position of Thomism or what have you. If you wish to go more in depth, and work from “the beginning”, you really need to start with books that treat the subject at greater length.

For example, when Feser simply states that angels are beings of pure intellect in the first one linked above without any further explanation, it should be clarified that Thomism does not simply take this as a given, but that Feser is merely taking it as a given for the sake of his post which is addressing a different issue.
 
What does it mean for the human soul to be a “substance”? Is it made of something?
 
What does it mean for the human soul to be a “substance”? Is it made of something?
Not materially.

The term substance in this context is used in its philosophical (Aquinian) sense, not a physical one.

ICXC NIKA
 
Not materially.

The term substance in this context is used in its philosophical (Aquinian) sense, not a physical one.

ICXC NIKA
If the soul is not made of anything materially, no matter, no energy, etc, then what does it mean to say it survives death?

Is it made of something spiritually? What would that mean?
 
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