The Soul in Catholic Scripture

[JohnDom]

Where does the soul fit in Catholic interpretation of the scripture? Can the story of Jesus be a metaphor for this part of us: born pure of a virgin, miraculous, rejected and buried, yet still live? Could the soul be seen as the cornerstone the builders rejected because it is misunderstood and not included in the Trinity? Could it be the source of the missing ingredient of self worth? If the soul is eternal and God is eternal why wouldn’t they be the same? Why wouldn’t this be the meaning behind “He who has seen me has seen the Father”?

 

[spiderweb]

Wow, lot’s of questions that cannot be answered simply and certainly not in one post. For starters I would suggest getting (and reading) a book called “Theology for Beginners” by Frank Sheed.

The words “soul” and “spirit” are often used interchangeably (even in the Bible), but they are slightly different. All living things (plant, animal, God, angels, etc.) have soul. It is the principle of life. However, rational beings (humans, angels, God) have soul which is also “spirit”. Spirit is what gives us the capacity to know, love, and will (as opposed to animal or plant soul). As the scriptures say, “God is a spirit” (John 4:24). And also as the scriptures say “And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you” (Leviticus 26:11).

With that in mind, the cornerstone the builders rejected was their Messiah, Jesus. Not a part of him (the soul), but all of him in his personhood as divine Son of God. Spirit is eternal, but soul is not. God is a spirit, Angels are spirits, humans have spirits, but we are not the same spirit. I do not love what you love. I do not know what you know. Neither of us have the knowledge, love, or will that God has. We all possess an individual spirit, thus they are not the same.

Jesus is a divine person who took on humanity. We have seen the Father when we see Jesus because they are the same God (but not the same persons). You and I are both human, but we are not the same person. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same One God, but they are not the same persons. They know, love, and will with the same oneness of God, but they are not the same persons. To know the love of Jesus, is the same as knowing the love of the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is a divine mystery. We can sort of understand it, but at the same time total comprehension remains a mystery.

 

[De_Maria]

If the soul is eternal and God is eternal why wouldn’t they be the same?

The soul is not eternal.

 

[JohnDom]

I don’t think it’s as mysterious as some make it to be. It’s just often misunderstood. When one thinks of the spirit the connotation is that is God and it is outside of us, separate and apart from us. Yet God is infinite. How can we ever be apart from what is infinite?

When I say soul I mean the mind, body, personality, and the spirit. This is important because this is a God of the living not the dead. We are not able to know God and feel our self-worth while we are alive without the soul. The suggestion is that we wait until we are dead to experience God. That’s a huge mistake for God is found right here and right now in this exact present moment.

Also, without the soul there is no self-worth and the enemy keeps us convinced that this is okay to live our lives without any self worth. Then we pass this in to our children like it’s no big deal when in reality it is the cause of many human miseries throughout history. There’s no replacement for the soul. It’s not a coincidence that it is infinite, eternal, born pure of a virgin, heals lack of self worth and awakens us to our divinity thus resembling raising Lazarus from the dead, is rejected, spit upon, treated as insignificant, ousted from the Trinity, misunderstood, dismissed and buried, yet it still lives.

 

[JohnDom]

That’s not what the Catholic priest at my church says.

 

[De_Maria]

If he is using the word “eternal”, he is wrong. The word he should be using is “infinite” or “immortal”.

Infinite means beginning and but no end.
Immortal means once it is created, it won’t die.

But eternal means no beginning and no end, uncreated and everlasting.

Only one thing is eternal. All Mighty God.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

 

[spiderweb]

We have to make this distinction for clarification. When most people (including priests) talk about “soul” they are actually talking about “spirit”. In all living things the soul is the principal of life. When plants and animals reproduce, they propagate live in their offspring. But when the parent plant or animal dies, it’s soul (life force) is dead. It does not live on because it is not eternal, immortal, or infinite. It is dead and gone. When a human person reproduces, they generate life but God creates a unique spirit for each individual. “Soul” and “spirit” are not two separate things in a human person, just as they are not two separate things in God or in angels. Theirs and our souls are spirits, created by God, and not passed on from our parents like the animals. Spirits do not die when they separate from the physical body. This is also why the resurrection of the dead is so important. Human beings are body and soul/spirit, not just spirits and at the resurrection human body and soul/spirit will be rejoined again.

Without the soul (which is a spirit), a human being is physically dead. This is the definition of physical death: the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.

When I say soul I mean the mind, body, personality, and the spirit.

What you are describing is the human person as it is used in many places in the bible. I guess I don’t really understand what you are getting at. On the one hand you seem to speak of soul as separate from the body and on the other hand you use it as the whole human person.

Jesus is part of the Trinity, he is God the Son, a divine person. How is he “ousted from the Trinity”?

 

[JohnDom]

I like that distinction but I will have to think about it a bit more to see how it works and fits in. What I’m saying is that the soul is not included in the Trinity. Why? I guess it all depends on our definition and I do realize spirit and soul are used interchangeably. I don’t think the soul has a definition but it can be approximated as infinite and eternal. However, man does not define the soul. The soul defines man.

I distinguish spirit vs soul because most connotations of the spirit seem to imply that spirit lies outside of us and is conditional upon an event in time (like Pentecost) but I think God does not operate in time. Also God is spirit and spirit is infinite then how could it be the case that it could be outside of us? Can the spirit actually separate from the physical body if the spirit is infinite? I think people forget that God is everywhere which means he is inside, outside and in between us too. I think the soul which includes the body mind and personality are all part of what is infinite. Some people don’t like this idea because they somewhow feel God and creation are separate. There is a tendency to judge the body and mind as wrong, bad, sinful and therefore the soul is not deserving of being included in the Trinity and not a part of what is divine and godly. But how can we experience God while we are alive without the body and mind? Shall we wait until we’re dead instead? As Jesus says it is a grave error since this is a God of the living, not the dead.

Also if we are not connected to God in some way then we lack self worth. We think we must get value outside of us and that it is conditional upon some criteria. The only condition is that we realize there are no conditions. I think that lack of self worth is caused by the belief in disconnection from God. We are always connected to God and spirit or soul cannot return to God when dead because they never left in the first place. Death may be more accurately seen as some sort of transformation or transition. I know God to be divine and infinite. This divinity penetrates every single possible spot in the universe. This is approaching a mystery that may never be answered but I’m glad you are thinking along these lines and working to develop a deeper understanding. It lets me know I am not alone and other people are concerned about some of the same things as me.

 

[spiderweb]

What I’m saying is that the soul is not included in the Trinity. Why? I guess it all depends on our definition and I do realize spirit and soul are used interchangeably. I don’t think the soul has a definition but it can be approximated as infinite and eternal.

You lost me here. Are you using soul here to incorporate the human mind, body, spirit? If so, the soul is not included in the Trinity because the Trinity is God, and we are not God. The soul is only infinite because God wills it and created it to be so, at the time of our conception, not by it’s own power. Nor did it exist prior to the moment we came into existence. We are created beings, not eternal beings.

It is or natural state of unconditional love and no judgment. Man does not define the soul. The soul defines us.

Spirit/soul gives us the capacity to know, love, and will. It does not define what we will know, love, and will, only the capacity to do so. With great power also comes great responsibility. We can know, love, and will the good…or not. Souls are created good, but they can always choose evil. You can not separate man from the soul. Man is a composite of the physical body and the spiritual soul. In the sense that the soul can override the physical desires, the soul does define us. But it is both body and soul that either does good or evil by our own choices. And ultimately it is the “I” that chooses the direction to take.

I distinguish spirit vs soul because most connotations of the spirit seem to imply that spirit lies outside of us and is conditional upon an event in time (like Pentecost) but I think God does not operate in time. Also God is spirit and spirit is infinite then how could it be the case that it could be outside of us? Can the spirit actually separate from the physical body if the spirit is infinite? I think people forget that God is everywhere which means he is inside, outside and in between us too.

I will agree and disagree at the same time. God is outside of time, but being outside of time does not prevent him from operating in time. Jesus was born at a specific time and place “in time”. His entire ministry of salvation occurred within time. That being said, God is outside of time, so the effects of salvation that occurred within time, can be applied throughout time. A repentant sinner has his sins forgiven in time as well at the moment he is repentant and seeks forgiveness. Lot’s of Biblical evidence to back that up. God clearly operates in time, but he is not constrained by it.

 

[spiderweb]

Some people don’t like this idea because they somehow feel God and creation are separate. There is a tendency to judge the body and mind as wrong, bad, sinful and therefore the soul is not deserving of being included in the Trinity and not a part of what is divine and godly.

True God is a spirit and is both inside us and outside us, but there are different levels to that. True God is a spirit, but his spirit is not my spirit. My spirit is not your spirit. My spirit is not the spirit of an angel (good or bad). Every spirit is unique. On the one hand God is inside all of us as the source of all things, but on the other hand, he is not a literal part of me in the sense that I am part God or some demi-god, any more than a tree or idol can be worshiped as God even though he is in them as well and sustains their existence. God is separate from creation because the tree is not God. The tree only exists because God wills it to exist. This is very clear in the Old Testament, that creation is not the same as the creator any more than Mr. Ford is the same as the Model T car. God created all things good, but that is not the same as being divine.

Genesis is very clear that God created man and saw that it was “good”, made in the image and likeness of God. What we do determines whether our body, and mind are wrong, bad, or sinful. The soul itself is “good” in the sense that it functions in the way that God created it, but he also gave us the freedom to use it however we choose to. The human soul is only divine and godly only to the extent that it conforms to the goodness of God. It is not divine or godly on it’s own, nor is it a part of God and therefore not a part of the Trinity.

But how can we experience God while we are alive without the body and mind? Shall we wait until we’re dead instead? As Jesus says it is a grave error since this is a God of the living, not the dead.

A person who is in a coma or who has had tremendous brain damage can still experience God. God can speak directly to a persons soul/spirit by bypassing the body/brain. He is God after all. Otherwise how could he communicate with angels who have no body or brain and are pure spirits?

Also if we are not connected to God in some way then we lack self worth. We think we must get value outside of us and that it is conditional upon some criteria. The only condition is that we realize there are no conditions. I think that lack of self worth is caused by the belief in disconnection from God. We are always connected to God and spirit or soul cannot return to God when dead because they never left in the first place. Death may be more accurately seen as some sort of transformation or transition. I know God to be divine and infinite. This divinity penetrates every single possible spot in the universe.

I think I can agree with this. I think in many cases, our lack of self worth does come from our lack of knowledge of the love of God for us. Other people don’t give us value. Our value comes from being children of God and heirs to the Kingdom.

 

[BlackFriar]

JD if you want to float these ideas why not read our Catholic Catechism first?
It has a very clear definition of what we understand by the soul.
It is also very clear has to the nature of God and Jesus.
The matters you speculate on were all argued extensively in the first 300 years after Christ.

These sorts of things are not clear at all in the Bible, the Catholic Church does not believe that all truth is clearly discernible in Scripture. That is Protestantism.

BTW The word “soul” originates from Greek philosophy which penetrated Judaism from about 450BC and inspired many of its writings and schools of thought from this time including the OT and NT. The ancient Hebrews of course did not originally believe in the immortal soul nor life after death.
The soul by no means can be applied to God because God is without any materiality whatsoever.
A soul by its very nature is ordained to having a material body.

Your views seem remarkably similar to the old C3 heresies of Docetism, Apollinarianism, and Monophysitism. You may like to look them up on the New Advent website where the old Catholic Encyclopedia is located.

Why wouldn’t this be the meaning behind “He who has seen me has seen the Father”?

This is too simplistic a solution, the real one is far deeper.
It is based on the ancient philosophic distinction between “Person” (hypostasis) and “Nature”.
Jesus is the same nature as the Father (Divine) yet his Person is eternally begotten from his Father in the order of being but not the order of time. Look up Augustine and Aquinas on this exceedingly difficult understanding.

 

[Vico]

I don’t think the soul has a definition but it can be approximated as infinite and eternal.

Each human rational soul is created at conception.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, soul:

The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body. Though a substance in itself, the soul is naturally ordained toward a body; separated, it an “incomplete” substance. The soul has no parts, it is therefore simple, but it is not without accidents. The faculties are its proper accidents. Every experience adds to its accidental form. It is individually created for each person by God and infused into the body at the time of human insemination. It is moreover created in respect to the body it will inform, so that the substance of bodily features and of mental characteristics insofar as they depend on organic functions is safefuarded. As a simple and spiritual substance, the soul cannot die. Yet it is not the total human nature, since a human person is composed of body animated by the soul. In philosophy, animals and plants are also said to have souls, which operate as sensitive and vegetative principles of life. Unlike the human spirit, these souls are perishable. The rational soul contains all the powers of the two other souls and is the origin of the sensitive and vegetative functions in the human being.

 

[JohnDom]

Herein lies the issue. We think we can somehow be separate and apart from God but it simply can’t be done. I feel there’s an unconscious desire to perpetuate this notion of separation from God. We need to ask why. What is so important that we insist upon disconnection from that which is omnipresent? Is it such a bad thing that we need to avoid it? How could we be separate from what’s infinite except in our own minds? Do we know the definition of infinite? Notice how the simplicity of an infinite God confounds the wisdom of men.

I’m not saying we are God but rather we are one with God. We are a part of Him and there is no separation. This is the symbolism behind John 17:21. Jesus represents the soul. It’s a metaphor or extended allegory suggesting that we are included in what is infinite and eternal. It’s not a literal interpretation.

Time only exists in our minds. It is not a reality except in our heads. The Alpha Omega is the negation of time altogether. God seems to operate in time according to the viewpoint of the personality but ultimately the personality is a falsehood. It is a fabrication, a completely made up identity. Notice how intensely we believe otherwise. That is the same exact intensity with which the adversary has us in a choke hold.

Around 12 or 13 we turn our backs on the young innocent part of us and adopt the personality as our identity because we think it will bring us love and approval from our peer groups. The joy, exuberance, and magic of childhood is gone and we feel something is wrong on an unconscious level. As adults we can touch this young innocent part of us and be reborn. This is the meaning behind the miracle of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus from the dead. It represents our own spiritual awakening.

The enemy is depicted as a serpent for a reason. The loss of innocence happens so gradually that it’s almost undetectable. The collective personality is embedded in the fabric of society. This is how where we extract the individual personality. We adopt the roles of either child or parent and take them to be all of who and what we are. We get our self worth from how well we play these roles. We’re tricked into believing if we live up to the standards we will have salvation. The enemy dangles a carrot in front of us and we’re trapped in time. Realize true salvation is unconditional because it’s already accomplished in this timeless moment forever and always without fail. The soul is timelessness in itself and we are one with God because of it. Please dont wait til death to find this out for yourself.

 

[BlackFriar]

JD if you only ask rhetorical questions and you arent really interested in understanding supplied Catholic answers but only use this topic as a vehicle for preaching us your unusual brand of mysticism … then I think you are wasting your time here.

 

[spiderweb]

I’m not saying we are God but rather we are one with God. We are a part of Him and there is no separation. This is the symbolism behind John 17:21. Jesus represents the soul. It’s a metaphor or extended allegory suggesting that we are included in what is infinite and eternal. It’s not a literal interpretation.

Time only exists in our minds. It is not a reality except in our heads. The Alpha Omega is the negation of time altogether. God seems to operate in time according to the viewpoint of the personality but ultimately the personality is a falsehood. It is a fabrication, a completely made up identity. Notice how intensely we believe otherwise. That is the same exact intensity with which the adversary has us in a choke hold.

Since you use the scriptures of John 17:21 and believe that it is true, how do you reconcile your position with the rest of scripture.

For instance, there are many references to time and God acting in time. They are far too numerous to list, but a few Galatians 1:13, 1 Peter 1:11, Genesis 17:21, Galatians 4:4, Matt 26:18.

Here is the problem. If the scriptures are true, than either there is time and we exist in it and God acts within it…or God is a liar or the scriptures are false.

Yes we can partake in Christ’s divinity (2 Peter 1:4), but we are not part of God, we receive it from him as adopted children, and not as possessing it ourselves. How else could Jesus warn about being cast into fire (Matt 5:20-22).

For myself, God can neither deceive nor be deceived, so I take his words as truth and not some symbolic hidden meaning that is actually the opposite of what he says. When Jesus spoke in parables or symbolically he made it clear that that was what he intended.

Do you believe Jesus is a real person? or just a metaphor or allegory or something else?

 

[JohnDom]

Maybe you’re right. Maybe I should just allow people to remain lost but that wouldn’t sit right in my conscious. I was a Catholic for 35 years. The Catholic answers are not the whole story. I have been called to stand up and speak. I can’t help those who don’t like the challenge of expanding their horizons to gain a fuller understanding of our infinite and eternal God. I honor the commandment of loving my God with all my understanding, not just with some of it.

 

[JohnDom]

Jesus was a real person. Please don’t get it twisted. I am not here to negate anyone’s interpretation. The soul is here to fulfill not destroy. I’m simply saying there is another way to see things.

God is timelessness in itself and more of course. The belief in time and in the mind are an intrinsic part of the reason why humanity feels separated from God.

Please explain how we cannot be a part of God. Is God infinite or not?

 

[BlackFriar]

You are fairly clearly negating some fairly cut and dried Catholic beliefs and definitions re the nature of Jesus and God and his relationship with His Father by C4.

Your views on God and soul are preposterous to anyone trained in philosophy. By all means invent your own personal definition of soul and call it mysticism. But its just a waste of your time preaching this stuff here I suggest. Why would a serious Catholic spend time trying to learn your personal philosophic system and disconnect from history. This time could be more profitably spent reflecting on our own mystical tradition by researching beyond Scripture for how great Catholic mystics and saints of the past have grappled with God using agreed terminology.
It isnt rocket science, just common sense.

 

[JohnDom]

I’m not sure if we understand the power of God. God is a miracle of Oneness. Unshakeable unity. Its presence is everywhere, uniform, universal. It stretches to unexpected heights and unheralded depths. There is not one spot that it doesn’t occupy. This is what the purity of a virgin points to. There is absolutely not the tiniest fragment of anything that can taint it. It is impeccable. It is the spotless Lamb of God which quickly and easily takes away the sins of the world without failure, doubt or fear. We are to know it, feel it and live with it forever. There is not even the desire for a thought in its presence. There is nothing more we shall want. We lack nothing.

 

[Vico]

I’m not saying we are God but rather we are one with God.

Catechism

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: [78] “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” [79] “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” [80] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” [81]

78 2 Pt 1:4.
79 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939.
80 St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.
81 St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.