The "souls" of bacteria and other creatures?

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A piece of graphite is not a pencil. If you sold hunks of graphite as “pencils”, people would be angry at you. Get it?
If they were told that it is an implement to leave marks on paper, why would they get angry? Especially if the price is right. Artists use nice pieces of charcoal and they don’t get angry because of the lack of coating.
Well, I was humoring the pantheists on this board. I do not believe pencils have souls either. Only living things do.
So, when push comes to shove, the soul is still the old, outdated Greek animating principle. Ho-hum.
In any case, it seems to me you’re arguing that graphite and diamonds are “really” carbon molecules in different arrangements.
Let’s be precise: carbon atoms in different arrangements. Which is easy to verify if you burn both of them; capture the gas and put it into a gas spectrometer and see that they are identical - carbon dioxide.
Substantial as in the philosophical term? You’ve giving away your metaphysics now! So, you’re saying form is inherent in the arrangement of matter. Are you an Aristotelian then?
No, I am not. Aristotele was a great genius of his time. But that does not mean that all his ideas still survived the test of time.

The form may be important, based upon the point of investigation. If you view the carbon molecules as material to leave marks on paper, or to cut glass, then the form is important. If you are only interested in them as a fuel to a furnace, it is irrelevant. Coal and diamond will burn identically.
So basically your saying you believe what is real = what is useful. I already accused you of believing that, why didn’t you just agree with me?
No, I did not say that. Mathematics is as abstract as it gets. Some parts can be and are used in technology. Other parts are pure mental exercise. But at least they have the potential to become more than that.

However, even some parts will never get utilized, they are still a wonderful mental exercise, but - and that is important - mathematics does not try to pretend what it is not - namely influencing how we should lead our lives. And philosophy is guilty as hell in that respect.
Ha ha ha… Quid est veritas? Where have I heard that before?
“Est vir, qui adest” - cute little anagram - which by the way - only works in Latin. That little play on words does not lend credence to the concept of “truth” divorced from reality.
Well, the idea of the soul that is usually presented is some stupid supersitition that seems more influenced by Descartes and the Moderns, so, good- at least we agree on something.
Which is always gratifying.
 
At the end of the day, I have the ask the same question I always ask fundamentalist materialists- do you disagree with or just not understand what I am saying? Because this discussion seems pretty much cross-purposes to me.

Any philosophy, whether it be materialism, Thomism or Buddhism has great implications on how one should live. The only thing materialism does differently is it says “I have nothing to say, except that all the other philosophies are wrong!”… in other words, “the only truth is there is no truth”. lol.
 
At the end of the day, I have the ask the same question I always ask fundamentalist materialists- do you disagree with or just not understand what I am saying?
It is probably both. In this thread I am trying to understand the concept of the soul, which is asserted by the theists to be something important, something which “exists”. I tried to ask the same question before, and never received a coherent answer. It almost looks like that there are as many different asnwers as responders.

The main categories are “aminating principle”, “something that makes things what they are”, “some souls are material, others are immaterial”, “some are mortal others immortal”, etc…

Now, what am I supposed to do with this plethora of different answers? Is there anything to understand here?

And this is just the problem of definition! If there would be some coherent definition, then would come the next question: “what evidence is there for this concept”? Mind you, I am not asking for definite proof, merely just some evidence, which is a much weaker requirement.

The reason I am asking about bacteria, viruses, and complex electronic procedures is that I try to understand what actually is behind this concept.
Any philosophy, whether it be materialism, Thomism or Buddhism has great implications on how one should live.
The third part of philosophy (ethics) deals with that quetion, no doubt about it. However it is not an independent part of philosophy, it is determined by metaphysics (what exists?) and epsitemology (how do we know it?). Before we can even attempt to speak of “how should we behave?” we must have a ground for this question.

But this question most definitely does not belong to this particular thread.
The only thing materialism does differently is it says “I have nothing to say, except that all the other philosophies are wrong!”… in other words, “the only truth is there is no truth”. lol.
I already asked you, please criticize materialism for what it actually says, and not for something it does not say.

Materialism obviously accepts the concept of “truth” and it says that we speak about “truth” when our mental concept conforms with reality (scientific truth), or if an abstract concept can be reduced to a few axioms (mathematical truth).
 
Okay Atiesta, let’s have a truce here. 😉

I’ll tell you one thing, Thomism is coherent. So, it is understandable. Whether it corresponds to reality, well, is a matter of personal conviction. So I can say in all right reason that there is something to understand. I mean, I do not personally believe in materialism but I understand that many intelligent people do, so therefore it must be coherent even if whether it corresponds, ultimately, rests on one’s a-priori positions and following from that, their faith.

I came into this thread kind of late and I am not a very good teacher sometimes. So, here are some good links to browser:

Substance: newadvent.org/cathen/14322c.htm
Accident: newadvent.org/cathen/01096c.htm
Soul (goes through the concept in east and west, and from antiquity to modern times): newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

Have fun… 👍
 
Okay Atiesta, let’s have a truce here. 😉
Sure. A respectful disagreement is always acceptable.

Without any desire to look for a reply, I would like to point out a few things from the article you suggested. (It is important to emphasise that I am not arguing against what you said, I am making comments on the supporting material.)
The belief in an animating principle in some sense distinct from the body is an almost inevitable inference from the observed facts of life.
Almost inevitable? Only for those whose knowledge is insufficient, who do not understand the concept of emerging attributes. This is underscrored by the next sentence:
Even uncivilized peoples arrive at the concept of the soul almost without reflection, certainly without any severe mental effort.
I wonder: How come that the authors consider the simplistic musings of primitive people as supporting argument?

I could go on, but what would be the point? The dissecting of the whole article would be pointless.

If you are interested, I tell you my favorite hypothesis. It is of course unsupported by any direct or even indirect evidence, so it does not qualify anything but an idea. I present this for amusement only.

I think that the whole concept of a soul (which transcends our bodies) came from the fact that we dream, and sometimes our dreams are very vivid and lifelike. The primitive people many tens of thousands of years ago had absolutely no idea about this. To them the dreams were indistinguishable from reality.

When they dreamed about their deceased parents, those dreams were taken as “evidence” that their loved ones did not “really” die, their “essense” is preserved somehow. On their scale of knowledge this was a very logical line of thought.

Naturally they believed that their loved ones will look after them as they did when they were alive. So they worshipped the spirits of their ancestors - as quite a few religions still do.

Anyhow, it was fun to exchange ideas with you.
 
The third part of philosophy (ethics) deals with that quetion, no doubt about it. However it is not an independent part of philosophy, it is determined by metaphysics (what exists?) and epsitemology (how do we know it?). Before we can even attempt to speak of “how should we behave?” we must have a ground for this question.
This is precisely the issue I have with materialism. There is nothing in matter, in and of itself, that compels us to act in a certain way. With matter, all its forms are equally valid. One form of matter is not substantially more valuable than another. Life is simply “another form,” but matter as the ground of being and ethics, as materialists would have to rely upon, does not make ethical distinctions or preferences. So there can be no moral ground for one kind of behaviour over another in matter itself. You don’t believe this, well let’s listen to what “matter” says – hmm, no response.:whistle: It has no opinion, makes no claim whatsoever on us or our behaviour.

In other words, a mass murderer could legitimately hold, “I am just rearranging molecules when I shoot these hundred people. Whether molecules form a human being or a corpse or back to humus really makes no difference to the ground of our physical being - matter. Nothing in matter compels me to act in a certain way because nothing in matter gives a reason for preferring one form over another.”

Even if you impose some kind of “survival of the fittest” schema on matter, that all depends upon your definition of “fittest.” Life is pretty tenuous and is merely just another form that matter has taken. Why should life, a centipede or a diamond be preferred over coal to matter itself? No reason, except that human beings value some forms over others for decidedly trivial reasons from the “point of view” of the cosmic universe. But separated from these merely human preferences, matter makes no such distinctions of value.

If you then resort to being parochial and anthropocentric about ethical matters and we, for the sake of argument, grant you that we humans have some inconsequential “right” to value life, because it is important to us, but not because it means anything to matter itself, then you might be forced to turn to “survival of life” as an ethical ideal. However, survival of the fittest as a basis for moral behaviour, would then have to admit all kinds of bizarre behaviours including “nazi” dreams of ideal races.

If one arrangement of molecules over here, let’s call it “Hitler” wishes to change other arrangements, matter itself makes no claims and neither can we to “justify” ourselves. We would merely act in whatever way we “wish” just because we desire it.

If survival of life is important to us in our little human community, then Hitler could legitimately say, “Let’s clean the gene pool of everything weak and unfit because we desire survival of humanity.” He would actually seem to have been endowed with great foresight if materialism is true because “persons” are merely chemical clouds of brains processes after all. Once materially rearranged, these unfit ones merely dissipate in the cosmos, no harm done – and they leave room for others more fit to survive.
I already asked you, please criticize materialism for what it actually says, and not for something it does not say.
It seems to me that materialism as the ground of metaphysics, epistemology and ethics allows for some pretty messy and contemptible ideas. Once the human “person” becomes a shadowy non-entity and matter takes precedence, ethical behaviour has lost all substantive ground of meaning – a radical relativism is the result.

People should act only in ways that are important to them and we have no objective grounds for limiting behaviour because nothing in matter “prefers” one end over another. A mass murderer, a nazi dictator, a corrupt politician, etc. all have equal justification for their behaviour because no justification is possible within a strictly material cosmos.

However, if God exists, is the ground of all Being and therefore gives infinite value to life as its teleological end, ethics do have a ground to stand on, and individual actions can be debated/justified/sanctioned. With matter all “qualitative” or ethical claims are mere figments of chance chemical brain processes and have no more substance than the epiphenomena that gave rise to them.:bigyikes:

You sure you want this scenario, Mr. Materialism?
 
This is precisely the issue I have with materialism. There is nothing in matter, in and of itself, that compels us to act in a certain way.
The fundamental problem is that you disregard the concept of emerging attributes, the fact that sometimes (not always) the whole is “more” than its constituting parts.

As a simple and materialistic example: a house is more than just hodgepodge of the bricks that it is composed of. If, however, a hurricane “rearrages” the bricks, then it will be just a pile of rubble.

When considering “ethics”, it is ridiculous to expect that “ethical” behavior be directly reduced to the dance of electrons, even though our thoughts are simpy that: electro-chemical reactions in our brain.

The view you present is simplistic at best and grossly distorted.

Science understands the emerging attributes. Physics is inadequate to explain the chemical properties of molecules, we need chemistry to do that. Chemistry is unable to describe the behavior of cells, which are composed of millions of molecules. We need biology to do that. Biology is not equipped to explain human behavior, which is dependent of billions of neurons and their incredibly complex interactions.

Nowhere in this pyramidal structure of concepts and laws (we call science) is there a need for supernatural. There is no need to assume a deity when considering why a diamond crystal has different properties than a corresponding graphite molecule - even though they are both composed of six carbon atoms.

This should be a starting point for you to understand materialism. Materialism does not try to reduce the interactions of humans to chemical reactions, or the dance of electrons, because we understand that the different layers of existence are significant.

What you tried to do is demand something that is not part of materialism, you demand reductionism.
It seems to me that materialism as the ground of metaphysics, epistemology and ethics allows for some pretty messy and contemptible ideas. Once the human “person” becomes a shadowy non-entity and matter takes precedence, ethical behaviour has lost all substantive ground of meaning – a radical relativism is the result.
In the light of what I said above you should rethink what you say here.
 
The fundamental problem is that you disregard the concept of emerging attributes, the fact that sometimes (not always) the whole is “more” than its constituting parts.

As a simple and materialistic example: a house is more than just hodgepodge of the bricks that it is composed of. If, however, a hurricane “rearrages” the bricks, then it will be just a pile of rubble.
Your example is exactly what I am getting at. The “house” may be more than a pile of bricks to intelligent human beings, but to matter itself, whether one arrangement or another occurs is not significant in value terms - one is not “valued” over another. It only appears that way to us as human beings.

Matter, as a non-thinking entity cannot impose qualitative terms because there is no “desired” end to matter. It does not value one outcome over another – that is of our imposition because of what we prefer.

Materialism, if it holds, has no basis for claiming one result is better than another, that a house is qualitatively better than a pile of rubble. As a basis for ethical judgements, materialism simply fails as an arbiter, because it can’t prefer any outcome to another. It simply doesn’t think, plan or prefer.

You haven’t convinced me that materialism provides any basis or ground for making value or ethical judgements at all. :tsktsk:
 
Your example is exactly what I am getting at. The “house” may be more than a pile of bricks to intelligent human beings, but to matter itself, whether one arrangement or another occurs is not significant in value terms - one is not “valued” over another. It only appears that way to us as human beings.

Matter, as a non-thinking entity cannot impose qualitative terms because there is no “desired” end to matter. It does not value one outcome over another – that is of our imposition because of what we prefer.
But of course. There is no thing as value outside living organisms, and there is no value judgement outside conscious, conceptualizing beings. Be as it may, you are welcome to a new thread I opened about asking the materialist. Let’s leave this thread to its original topic.
 
I wonder: How come that the authors consider the simplistic musings of primitive people as supporting argument?
“Simplistic?”

Oh, the racist assumptions behind this sentence.

Do, please, discuss the concept of Holy Wind as it pertains to the soul in Navajo thought.

“Simplistic” is not the word that comes to mind. “Extremely complex, if anything over-complex” does, as does “Really, really subtle”, but “simplistic” and that concept have nothing to say to one another.
 
“Simplistic?”

Oh, the racist assumptions behind this sentence.

Do, please, discuss the concept of Holy Wind as it pertains to the soul in Navajo thought.

“Simplistic” is not the word that comes to mind. “Extremely complex, if anything over-complex” does, as does “Really, really subtle”, but “simplistic” and that concept have nothing to say to one another.
Funny thing. I quoted from the source

newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm

suggested by mschrank. Maybe you could write to the authors of that essay and talk to them about their “racist” views.
 
Ateista,

I seems to me that the material soul could be viewed as what you consider an “emergent attribute”. I don’t know much about this subject so please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Ateista,

I seems to me that the material soul could be viewed as what you consider an “emergent attribute”. I don’t know much about this subject so please correct me if I am wrong.
I am not qualified to tell if you are right or not. I know what an emergent attribute is, but I am still at a loss in understanding what a “material soul” would be.
 
I am not qualified to tell if you are right or not. I know what an emergent attribute is, but I am still at a loss in understanding what a “material soul” would be.
I think the material soul is just the term for the summation of what animates a living organism. Thus, couldn’t it be considered an emergent attribute of matter? Something that cannot exist without the matter in question but is not itself matter (or energy, etc.)? Something that exists but cannot be held in your hand, like the “mind” (as distinct from the physical brain)?
 
I think the material soul is just the term for the summation of what animates a living organism. Thus, couldn’t it be considered an emergent attribute of matter? Something that cannot exist without the matter in question but is not itself matter (or energy, etc.)? Something that exists but cannot be held in your hand, like the “mind” (as distinct from the physical brain)?
Well, let’s analyze the question. Energy exchange happens everywhere and all the time.

The sun’s rays will heat up a rock exposed to it. Is that life? No one would say so. It is a simple physical reaction. A watch with a luminous dial will emit light in the dark. Energy is exchanged with the environment. That is not life either.

Life is complexity. We call a mulecular structure “alive” if it actively exchanges energy with its environment, if it attempts to maintain its homeostasis in varying conditions. That is the basic definition of life.

In laboratories they created complex molecules which will do something similar. The atmosphere was created to resemble the conditions as the scientists assumed they were in the primordial “soup”. They exposed this inanimate matter to energy. The molecules reacted to this energy (just like the rock heats up under the rays of the sun) and some of them definitely exhibited “lifelike” behavior.

So summed up: life is not mysterious.

Yes, as you said one may call this complexity a “material soul”. But what is point? Since the concept of the “soul” is so intertwined with religious overtones, it serves no useful purpose, except atempting to make something look mysterious, which is not mysterious at all. It is complicated, but not mysterious.
 
Yes, as you said one may call this complexity a “material soul”. But what is point? Since the concept of the “soul” is so intertwined with religious overtones, it serves no useful purpose, except atempting to make something look mysterious, which is not mysterious at all. It is complicated, but not mysterious.
It can be useful in philosophy, but I agree that in general usage it is fairly useless because people immediately think of the spiritual soul.
 
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