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asully34
Guest
If we are born with original sin and at Baptism that original sin is removed what happens when a person is not baptized and dies?
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OsculeturMeOsculo
Guest
They could have a baptism of desire.
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asully34
Guest
Even if the grandparents are the only ones who desire baptism for the child/adult? Is baptism of desire a Catholic teaching?
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OsculeturMeOsculo
Guest
Yes, it is a Catholic thing but the person who is dying has to have the desire to get baptized. It is a bit complicated though.
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asully34
Guest
Complicated how?
The father is a baptized Catholic the mother is nothing; never been baptized. The baby is not being baptized and prayers are needed that he will someday.
The father is a baptized Catholic the mother is nothing; never been baptized. The baby is not being baptized and prayers are needed that he will someday.
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asully34
Guest
This is what I have found…
Baptism of desire (Latin: Baptismus flaminis) is a teaching of the Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church and Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian Sacrament because of death, nevertheless receive the fruits of Baptism at the moment of death
So a grandparents desire means nothing…The person has to desire baptism.
Baptism of desire (Latin: Baptismus flaminis) is a teaching of the Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church and Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian Sacrament because of death, nevertheless receive the fruits of Baptism at the moment of death
So a grandparents desire means nothing…The person has to desire baptism.
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BlackFriar
Guest
You seem to be partly referring to “proxy baptism after death” which was a Christian superstitious practise encountered by Paul and is mentioned in the NT. The Fathers never accepted the practise.
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HD0521
Guest
This is a LDS practice as well isn’t it?You seem to be partly referring to “proxy baptism after death” which was a Christian superstitious practise encountered by Paul and is mentioned in the NT. The Fathers never accepted the practise.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Rings a bell, its an old aberration.
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
The father has an obligation to baptize and raise his child in the faith. If he fails to do so, he will have the gravest sin to answer for. Pray for all three of them!The father is a baptized Catholic the mother is nothing; never been baptized. The baby is not being baptized and prayers are needed that he will someday.
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JanetF
Guest
If you are talking about an unbaptized infant or even a young child, the answer is we don’t know. We assume God will have mercy and welcome them to Heaven.
Baptism of Desire comes into play after the person reaches the age of reason.
Baptism of Desire comes into play after the person reaches the age of reason.
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Aulef
Guest
Probably go to a limb of natural happiness, for they have no personal guilt.
This is not canonical, but is generally accepted throughout Church history.
This is not canonical, but is generally accepted throughout Church history.
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BridgetN
Guest
If they wanted to be BaptizedThey could have a baptism of desire.
or
if they were good on earth, but not Baptized, they could go to Limbo.
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BlackFriar
Guest
This topic gets done to death every 6 months on CAF.
Google is your friend.
Google is your friend.
That person is in the hands of the Father who created him/her .what happens when a person is not baptized and dies?
I trust in the Father’s love .
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The normative means of salvation begins with baptism.
Those who die without baptism, well, unless there is some special means that God has not made known to us, they go to hell.
Those who die without baptism, well, unless there is some special means that God has not made known to us, they go to hell.
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BlackFriar
Guest
I do not believe this is a balanced summary of the Church’s present position.Those who die without baptism, well, unless there is some special means that God has not made known to us, they go to hell.
What is normative is God’s mercy even outside of the Sacraments. We have every confidence that this mercy is more normative than the Sacraments, operating regularly outside of the Sacramants.
That would be the theological advance we have made on medieval times.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Do you have a link to where hell has been rendered outdated?
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1035.htm
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (GCD 69), also called "hell."
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1035.htm
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1056 Following the example of Christ, the Church warns the faithful of the “sad and lamentable reality of eternal death” (GCD 69), also called "hell."
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
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Dovekin
Guest
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
“What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.”
“What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of Baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of Baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.”
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BlackFriar
Guest
Red herring.Do you have a link to where hell has been rendered outdated?
The issue is linking absence of sacramental baptism to normatively going to hell fire.
Even in the Middle Ages mainstream tradition denied hell fire as the normative destination. What was normative was Limbo which is not Hell Fire. It signified absence of the Beatific Vision - which is not Hell Fire. In fact most considered that to be a place of natural paradise at least as good as Eden.
In more recent times your normative bit has lost ranking also.
What now ranks higher as “normative” is God’s mercy which still acts normatively even when Sacraments no longer do.
All very easy, “glass half full” stuff.
We get it you may have a “glass half empty” approach which casts shadows where the Church since Vat II actually teaches and offers normative hope to mum’s with stillborn babies.
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