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TheLittleLady
Guest
@Blackfriar @dovekin this is what I said. NORMATIVE = baptism. Special means that God has not made known to us = maybe.
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Dovekin
Guest
Indeed. That is why he quote I posted begins by talking about baptism as “he ordinary way.” I totally agree with you.this is what I said. NORMATIVE = baptism. Special means that God has not made known to us = maybe.
Are there other, special means that we do not about by which pople may be saved? We do not know, obviously. Again, we agree.
In addition, the link I posted is to a document of the CDF that says:
“they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when…”
I do not know what your position is on this hope, but it addresses the situation raised by the original poster. We do not know, but we can hope. Your bleak presentation of the norm, and suggestion that our ignorance means that there are no other ways to be saved, leaves out Hope, the great sister to Faith and Charity.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Bleak? God put on human flesh to be tortured and died, raised again and left us the Church and Her Sacraments so that we may attain heaven, so that we may be spared hell. That is the Gospel, the good news!Your bleak presentation of the norm
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Dovekin
Guest
To present that Good News without Hope is to present it as something bleak. The message you gave, in context, included “your granddaughter is going to hell.” I think that is pretty bleak.
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kristaok
Guest
That’s not what the Bible says… the Bible is very clear on where children and infants go! They go to Heaven!!!
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Please, show me where I said “your grandaughter is going to hell”. You may have me confused with another poster. I have answered in broad generalities.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
If the Bible were “very clear” we would not have these discussions. The Church has been clear that we do not know the fate of the unbaptized.
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Ann_Stanton
Guest
Catholics including myself read the Bible. I do not understand why you are so hostile on a Catholic forum.
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idifacs_john
Guest
how can one be born with original sin if Jesus died on the cross and saved humanity from original sin. exactly, ya cant be born with original sin, it is a misnomer that keeps getting perpetuated to try an force everyone into this idea that you are going straight to hell if you do not become baptized which being baptized doesnt even gaurantee one from gaining entrance into heaven because no one knows exactly how God judges who does or doesnt go to Heaven, baptisim is simply a formal right for entering into the catholic church and professing ones desire to be apart of God.
Religious Councils dont know how God Judges, the Pope doesnt know, clergy and religious do not know, church militants do not know, the catechism doesnt know.
The only thing that is certain is that God is fair and loving in His judgement.
The entire thing with baptism is from following ancient scripture and everyone shaking their fists in the air screaming that this is the way it has always been done, which by that same logic, women shouldnt vote, we should still have slaves, and reading should only be for the elite. why, because that was the way it has always been done.
Either Christ did defeat original sin and death and bridged the gap between heaven and earth or he didn’t. There is no " But " after the fact.
Religious Councils dont know how God Judges, the Pope doesnt know, clergy and religious do not know, church militants do not know, the catechism doesnt know.
The only thing that is certain is that God is fair and loving in His judgement.
The entire thing with baptism is from following ancient scripture and everyone shaking their fists in the air screaming that this is the way it has always been done, which by that same logic, women shouldnt vote, we should still have slaves, and reading should only be for the elite. why, because that was the way it has always been done.
Either Christ did defeat original sin and death and bridged the gap between heaven and earth or he didn’t. There is no " But " after the fact.
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idifacs_john
Guest
exactly, hypocrasy at its’ best.
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Dovekin
Guest
In context, you are saying to asully34, the OP, that her grandchild is going to hell. The question was phrased generally, but she asked about a specific situation as well.Those who die without baptism, well, unless there is some special means that God has not made known to us, they go to hell.
You are so close to offerring her hope, but most would probably think there is no special means by the way you phrased it. But God willing, the grandchild will be saved by some special means not known to us.
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kristaok
Guest
Matthew 19:14 - 15 King James Version (KJV)
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
All children go to Heaven.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
All children go to Heaven.
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kristaok
Guest
Matthew 18:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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kristaok
Guest
Deuteronomy 1:39 King James Version (KJV)
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
The Bible says children know no sin…
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
The Bible says children know no sin…
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kristaok
Guest
Matthew 18:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 18: 6
Whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 18: 6
Whoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Your second statement clearly means that, without baptism, such souls normally go to Hell Fire.The normative means of salvation begins with baptism.
Those who die without baptism (unless…) they go to hell.
Do you have a link to where hell has been rendered outdated?
You are mistaken on two counts:
(a) We leave them to God’s salvific mercy - which is normatively considered hopeful in outcome
(b) Even if it was a negative outcome in some cases the traditional teaching has been their destination is deprivation of the Beatific Vision (Limbo) NOT Hell Fire.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Limbo is tradition with a small “t”, not doctrine.(b) Even if it was a negative outcome in some cases the traditional teaching has been their destination is deprivation of the Beatific Vision (Limbo) NOT Hell Fire.
I trust in the mercy of God. The fate of my child who died before baptism is in HIS hands alone. I make no presumption.
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JanetF
Guest
Well, since Limbo isn’t doctrine I don’t put much stock in it. I’m on the side of “we don’t know for sure, but let’s trust in God’s Mercy, and assume he’s in heaven” when it comes to children who die whether before being born or before baptism.My brother was born dead. I can’t believe God has sent him to hell.
Limbo is a place similar to heaven but it is not heaven.
Many people say to me that he is in limbo. I don’t know what to believe.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Then please do not assert that the fate of unbaptized children is normally hell fire my dear.
Tradition and tradition is against you.
None of this is dogma or Dogma but it is current Church Teaching (and teaching).
Tradition and tradition is against you.
None of this is dogma or Dogma but it is current Church Teaching (and teaching).
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TheLittleLady
Guest
If the fate of my child is hell, then, when I die I will understand that even that fate is part of God’s infinite mercy.
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