The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…

[Christian_Unity]

So God sends people to hell, even though he could have saved them, being sovereign? Would you agree with that statement?

Blame everything on Adam. Those who end up in Hell receive what they deserve which is divine justice for their personal rebellion against God and the sin of Adam. I agree God can save none, some, or all… according to His sovereign will, His own glory, and His own divine purpose. God is not compelled or obligated to save any, because we are all born in rebellion against Him and deserve the eternal wrath of God for our personal rebellion against Him. I think mercy and grace is more about receving what we do not deserve. Do you seem to agree or disagree?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Humility is simply the realization and acceptance of contingency, that we are not self-sufficient.

If we are not self-sufficient, where or whom do we find our sufficiency in? Is humilty that can be found in us from God or self-generated apart from Him?

2 Corinthians 3:4-6

Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 9:8

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Okay, do you think man can have free will, yet God is still sovereign? I personally don’t believe we can have the sovereignity of man and also have the sovereignity of God at the same time. Either God rules and reigns by governing His entire creation, or God is passive in His creation, and is just sitting back watching mankind do it’s thing. Consider this verse:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. - Matt 10

So you don’t believe in free will?

Blame everything on Adam. Those who end up in Hell receive what they deserve which is divine justice for their personal rebellion against God and the sin of Adam. I agree God can save none, some, or all… according to His sovereign will, His own glory, and His own divine purpose. God is not compelled or obligated to save any, because we are all born in rebellion against Him and deserve the eternal wrath of God for our personal rebellion against Him. I think mercy and grace is more about receving what we do not deserve. Do you seem to agree or disagree?

But if God controls all our actions, then those people didn’t chose to commit those evils, and are therefor being damned for no reason other than God arbitrarily decided they were…

I’m sorry, but have you ever actually thought about this? I mean, really thought about it?

 

[Christian_Unity]

So you don’t believe in free will?

But if God controls all our actions, then those people didn’t chose to commit those evils, and are therefor being damned for no reason other than God arbitrarily decided they were…

I’m sorry, but have you ever actually thought about this? I mean, really thought about it?

I guess we have to quality what we mean by free will. Man is morally responsible for his actions, and he makes choices within the sovereign will of God. Even Satan only acts within the permission of God (book of Job), or what God allows within His sovereign will. Mankind cannot do anything against the sovereign will of God… because God governs His universe according to His wisdom and not ours. Think about this, did you determine where and when you were to be born, or did God determine that? Will you determine how many days you will have on this earth, or does God determine that? Who gives you the air to breathe and the food and drink which sustains your life? Who holds back the asteroids that could collide with the Earth and destroy it?

 

[rinnie]

Okay… I believe Catholics and Protestants prayed to God prior to the election in regards to our next President of the United States. If you believe in the absolute free will of man, then why did we as Christians pray to God about the election? Through prayer, did God changed the hearts of men and women to vote whom God wanted to serve as our President?

Regarding the crucifixion, it was the will of the Father that Jesus was to die in that manner. Remember how Jesus rebuked Peter at the garden? It was the absolute authority of God that Jesus was to die on the cross.

Let’s do a simpler one. Is God sovereign over the weather and natural disasters, or does Mother nature have a will of her own? I believe the two hurricanes just prior to the election had an impact of the election (Sandy and the one at the Republican convention). Did those hurricanes happen by fate, or did God send them to secure the election results according to His sovereign will?

Okay lets start with why did we as Christians pray for the guidence of God in who to vote for, We prayed because we had the free will to pray or not to pray. Did God lead us to the right choice. I hope so. But it was not Gods will that was pushed upon us, it was our free will to ask him to help us. Remember the Our Father, Thy kingdom come THY WILL be done. So if we asked God to help us do the right thing, we still had the free will to ask.

Next it was not the will of the Father for Jesus to die, God knew when he came down he had to die, not because he wanted to, but because he knew we would not turn away from our sin and needed a Savior. Its like a book, just because you read the last page, and know how the story is going to end, does not mean it was your will. So while he obeyed his Father and died on the cross, it wasn’t because God wanted it, it was because we need a savior.

As far as the weather who knows. It could have been 80 out and sunny low humidity and the vote could have remained the same. People still had time to vote.

But if God sent the weather to secure the vote in his favor he has talken away our free will and done his will. do you not agree? Our God does not do that.

 

[rinnie]

Blame everything on Adam. Those who end up in Hell receive what they deserve which is divine justice for their personal rebellion against God and the sin of Adam. I agree God can save none, some, or all… according to His sovereign will, His own glory, and His own divine purpose. God is not compelled or obligated to save any, because we are all born in rebellion against Him and deserve the eternal wrath of God for our personal rebellion against Him. I think mercy and grace is more about receving what we do not deserve. Do you seem to agree or disagree?

Why blame Adam, Jesus came and wiped us clean of Original Sin long ago, and gave us a clean slate to do his will, or our will.

Also lets get one thing straight God Can do whatever he wants. This is true. But in order for us to be saved he gave us the Church and the commands to follow, And the grace and faith to folllow it through. All we have to do is live out the grace given to us.

But just because he gave us all the tools does not mean we cannot reject his grace. And its pretty much as simple as this, People don’t want to hear it but here it it. You either accept him, accept his grace and do his works and hope with his grace you are made worthy of heaven.

Or you reject him, his grace, his works and choose hell. Its unfortunatley not up to God rather we enter heaven or not, Although he indeed makes the final judgement, we have to do our part also. We choose to follow him, to pray, to live the best we can, or we can choose to do nothing and hope for the best. I would not advise it.

While none of us can speak for God, we do know what he has told us. We are put here to honor obey and do his work. We can reject or accept that job.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I guess we have to quality what we mean by free will. Man is morally responsible for his actions, and he makes choices within the sovereign will of God. Even Satan only acts within the permission of God (book of Job), or what God allows within His sovereign will. Mankind cannot do anything against the sovereign will of God… because God governs His universe according to His wisdom and not ours.

I can agree with this, however:

Think about this, did you determine where and when you were to be born, or did God determine that?

My parent’s determined it, with God, when they chose to conceive a child.

Will you determine how many days you will have on this earth, or does God determine that?

So, if I were to commit suicide, it is what God has planned? Following this logic, I should have no fear of Hell for such an action because it is as God planned it.

Who gives you the air to breathe and the food and drink which sustains your life?

God, who wills this universe to exist, then the farmers, who grow produce, the trees, which produce oxygen, and the water of this Earth, set in place by God’s design.

Who holds back the asteroids that could collide with the Earth and destroy it?

… what asteroid? Though, I do agree that God has probably prevented the extinction of humanity once or twice

I think it is a matter of semantics between our definitions. I believe that God holds authority over all things, and that his will -should- dictate all that we do. He has given us a very definite set of laws to follow through the natural law, and it is by those laws that we should govern humanity.

That stated, he does not generally intervene directly when we reject his will. What you are stating implies that he actively forms the hurricanes and other natural disasters. This is not beyond the scope of possibility, and I will accept it as potentially correct. I’m not dead, and I’m not God, so I can’t know on this one. However, you also imply that he actively chose who was elected. I cannot accept this one because it would void free will. An election requires the (name removed by moderator)ut of people, and in order for people to give (name removed by moderator)ut they must make a choice. If God dictates this choice, then those people do not have free will. On these grounds, I must reject this portion of your belief.

 

[rinnie]

I guess we have to quality what we mean by free will. Man is morally responsible for his actions, and he makes choices within the sovereign will of God. Even Satan only acts within the permission of God (book of Job), or what God allows within His sovereign will. Mankind cannot do anything against the sovereign will of God… because God governs His universe according to His wisdom and not ours. Think about this, did you determine where and when you were to be born, or did God determine that? Will you determine how many days you will have on this earth, or does God determine that? Who gives you the air to breathe and the food and drink which sustains your life? Who holds back the asteroids that could collide with the Earth and destroy it?

I think we can agree on this!

 

[Christian_Unity]

Okay lets start with why did we as Christians pray for the guidence of God in who to vote for, We prayed because we had the free will to pray or not to pray. Did God lead us to the right choice. I hope so. But it was not Gods will that was pushed upon us, it was our free will to ask him to help us. Remember the Our Father, Thy kingdom come THY WILL be done. So if we asked God to help us do the right thing, we still had the free will to ask.

Next it was not the will of the Father for Jesus to die, God knew when he came down he had to die, not because he wanted to, but because he knew we would not turn away from our sin and needed a Savior. Its like a book, just because you read the last page, and know how the story is going to end, does not mean it was your will. So while he obeyed his Father and died on the cross, it wasn’t because God wanted it, it was because we need a savior.

As far as the weather who knows. It could have been 80 out and sunny low humidity and the vote could have remained the same. People still had time to vote.

But if God sent the weather to secure the vote in his favor he has talken away our free will and done his will. do you not agree? Our God does not do that.

By Christians praying… did that in any way change the will of God of who would serve as our President for the next 4 years? Do you think our prayers can change the sovereign will of God? When we pray, aren’t we simply trying to conform our will to His will according to the Lord’s prayer?

So according to the Scriptures, the winds obey God or Mother nature?

And the men marveled, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” Matthew 8:27

Jesus’s ministry is about obeying the will of God perfectly on our behalf. Since He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, He was able to confom and obey the will of God the Father perfectly. It was the will of the Father that Christ was to be crucified on behalf of whom would believe. Could Jesus have sinned and disobey the will of the Father? That’s an entirely different thread topic.

 

[rinnie]

My parent’s determined it, with God, when they chose to conceive a child.

So, if I were to commit suicide, it is what God has planned? Following this logic, I should have no fear of Hell for such an action because it is as God planned it.

God, who wills this universe to exist, then the farmers, who grow produce, the trees, which produce oxygen, and the water of this Earth, set in place by God’s design.

… what asteroid?

I think it is a matter of semantics between our definitions. I believe that God holds authority over all things, and that his will -should- dictate all that we do. He has given us a very definite set of laws to follow through the natural law, and it is by those laws that we should govern humanity.

That stated, he does not generally intervene directly when we reject his will. What you are stating implies that he actively forms the hurricanes and other natural disasters. This is not beyond the scope of possibility, and I will accept it as potentially correct. I’m not dead, and I’m not God, so I can’t know on this one. However, you also imply that he actively chose who was elected. I cannot accept this one because it would void free will. An election requires the (name removed by moderator)ut of people, and in order for people to give (name removed by moderator)ut they must make a choice. If God dictates this choice, then those people do not have free will. On these grounds, I must reject this portion of your belief.

I have to disagree with you on what she said about our time on this earth. If we rely on God and his will and Grace he does make the call.

The bible tells us that. He knows the day we are born the day we will die.

Of course if we try to kill ourself that is not the will of God, that is putting our will over his, so that does not count.

 

[asd72]

Blame everything on Adam. Those who end up in Hell receive what they deserve which is divine justice for their personal rebellion against God and the sin of Adam. I agree God can save none, some, or all… according to His sovereign will, His own glory, and His own divine purpose. God is not compelled or obligated to save any, because we are all born in rebellion against Him and deserve the eternal wrath of God for our personal rebellion against Him. I think mercy and grace is more about receving what we do not deserve. Do you seem to agree or disagree?

But Christ is the new Adam who has triumphed over sin and death. Why would he not want everyone to be saved?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I have to disagree with you on what she said about our time on this earth. If we rely on God and his will and Grace he does make the call.

The bible tells us that. He knows the day we are born the day we will die.

Of course if we try to kill ourself that is not the will of God, that is putting our will over his, so that does not count.

I recognize that, and agree with it completely. It was put up as a point because some of her posts seem to seek to negate free will.

 

[Christian_Unity]

But Christ is the new Adam who has triumphed over sin and death. Why would he not want everyone to be saved?

The Scripture does testify that God desires all to be saved. We do know through Scripture that not all will be saved. Yet, God’s sovereign will is that some and not all would be saved according to His wisdom and good pleasure… to the praise of His glorious grace.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. Sacred Scripture

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The Scripture does testify that God desires all to be saved. We do know through Scripture that not all will be saved. Yet, God’s sovereign will is that some and not all would be saved according to His wisdom and good pleasure… to the praise of His glorious grace.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. Sacred Scripture

You post seems to imply that God creates people specifically to damn them and make an example of them…

It is also self contradictory:

God desires all to be saved

God’s sovereign will is that some and not all would be saved according to His wisdom and good pleasure

This is a contradiction. I agree with the first part, not the second. God wills that all be saved, we as humans with free will can reject His will and chose to not be. That is very, very different from God willing that some people lose salvation.

 

[PJM]

=Christian Unity;10093992]Okay… I believe Catholics and Protestants prayed to God prior to the election in regards to our next President of the United States. If you believe in the absolute free will of man, then why did we as Christians pray to God about the election? Through prayer, did God changed the hearts of men and women to vote whom God wanted to serve as our President?

Regarding the crucifixion, it was the will of the Father that Jesus was to die in that manner. Remember how Jesus rebuked Peter at the garden? It was the absolute authority of God that Jesus was to die on the cross.

Let’s do a simpler one. Is God sovereign over the weather and natural disasters, or does Mother nature have a will of her own? I believe the two hurricanes just prior to the election had an impact of the election (Sandy and the one at the Republican convention). Did those hurricanes happen by fate, or did God send them to secure the election results according to His sovereign will?

It’s a FAir question you ask

The answer lies with God.

God can and will say “NO” or “not yet” when such a reply serves His Greater Good.

Keep in mind that 50% of self professed Catholics [and one assumes Christians] voted for Oboma. So which 50% is God supposed to listed too

God is in charge and what ever happens is either caused by Him [only good] or permitted by Him for reason He alone may understand. That is why TRUE Faith is critical

 

[rinnie]

By Christians praying… did that in any way change the will of God of who would serve as our President for the next 4 years? Do you think our prayers can change the sovereign will of God? When we pray, aren’t we simply trying to conform our will to His will according to the Lord’s prayer?

So according to the Scriptures, the winds obey God or Mother nature?

And the men marveled, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” Matthew 8:27

Jesus’s ministry is about obeying the will of God perfectly on our behalf. Since He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, He was able to confom and obey the will of God the Father perfectly. It was the will of the Father that Christ was to be crucified on behalf of whom would believe. Could Jesus have sinned and disobey the will of the Father? That’s an entirely different thread topic.

Okay let me say one thing. Nothing changes the will of God. So my answer is No, Nothing will change the will of God.

What has to change is our prayers and what we are asking for. If we pray for Obama for example because he is for abortion, we are in Big trouble. And if we did pray for that and it was answered you can bet it wasn’t by the will of God. God would never will abortion.

Now if we voted for Obama because of another reason, that we feel would benefit the country and help the poor, etc even though we disagree with the abortion issue, then we are okay.

But let me get this straight. It took me YEARS to figure this out, Trust me, I am giving you 51 years of wisdom here.

Learn how to pray correctly. It took me my whole life to do it. I am at the point I quit asking God for anything. Usually. I usually ask him to help me to accept HIS will, and make my will the same as his.

If that is not possible I ask him to give me the grace to accept his will.

My Dad told me years ago to pray for one thing. GRACE!! If you pray for the grace of God you can get through and over anything.

And remember if your will, is not Gods will, it will end in disaster, He always is right.

 

[Christian_Unity]

You post seems to imply that God creates people specifically to damn them and make an example of them…

It is also self contradictory:

This is a contradiction. I agree with the first part, not the second. God wills that all be saved, we as humans with free will can reject His will and chose to not be. That is very, very different from God willing that some people lose salvation.

Don’t you think Scripture testifies that everyone was damned and heading to eternal destruction as soon as Adam disobeyed God? Again, if we want a scapegoat for the predicament of mankind in his rebellion against God, blame it on Adam. Actually, the Apostle Paul blames it on Eve. Sorry sisters in Christ… it was Eve’s fault and not Adam. God did not will that all will be saved because we know through the Scriptures that the road is narrow and a few find it which leads to eternal life.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. - Sacred Scripture

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Don’t you think Scripture testifies that everyone was damned and heading to eternal destruction as soon as Adam disobeyed God? Again, if we want a scapegoat for the predicament of mankind in his rebellion against God, blame it on Adam. Actually, the Apostle Paul blames it on Eve. Sorry sisters in Christ… it was Eve’s fault and not Adam. God did not will that all will be saved because we know through the Scriptures that the road is narrow and a few find it which leads to eternal life.

What does that have to do with God’s will? Do you think God willed Adam and Eve to take the fruit? And what of this narrow road? Just because it is difficult (to us) doesn’t mean that God doesn’t will everyone to follow him. He allows failure becasue he allows free will. However, as stated, allowing something is very, very different from willing it.

Also… please don’t just put “Sacred Scripture.” That is not a citation. Book, Chapter, Verse, please. I like being able to look up what I am quoted ^^ Context is very important.

Also, to that question, no, I don’t think it testifies to that. Scriptures testifies to the fact that we are fallen, and that disobeying God leads to our destruction. It also testifies to the fact that God is forgiving, and will welcome us home as many time as we return to him.

 

[JamesATyler]

Okay, do you think man can have free will, yet God is still sovereign? I personally don’t believe we can have the sovereignity of man and also have the sovereignity of God at the same time. Either God rules and reigns by governing His entire creation, or God is passive in His creation, and is just sitting back watching mankind do it’s thing. Consider this verse:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. - Matt 10

If God is sovereign, why do you think he must control all things. He can do as he likes. If he wants to lets us make choices and direct the formation of our countries and lives then he can do so. It appears he is doing so.

 

[asd72]

The Scripture does testify that God desires all to be saved. We do know through Scripture that not all will be saved. Yet, God’s sovereign will is that some and not all would be saved according to His wisdom and good pleasure… to the praise of His glorious grace.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory. Sacred Scripture

It is a difficult passage, and I haven’t studied it in detail yet myself. But apparently the early Church Fathers did not read it as Calvin did. We are warned by one of the Apostles, I can’t remember which one off hand, that some of Paul’s letters are quite difficult to understand. Something to keep in mind.