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Peter_Plato
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I would say something about great minds thinking alike, but I struggle a lot with mine so I wouldn’t want that to reflect badly on yours.This is basically how I would respond as well, just much more succinct.
The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…
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ProdglArchitect
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XD
No worries, my mind and I have always been at odds, so you’re in good company there
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Anthony_V
Guest
A mark of the Reformed tradition is that it rejects the metaphysics of the scholastics(1). This is pronounced even in Luther’s own ideology, and more recent orthodox Reformed theologians such as Karl Barth(2). Now, the relevancy of this idea is that you are asking a metaphysical question, while defending it from a theological perspective. No doubt there are multiple passages that can be interpreted to support your premise, but even a properly and entirely antithetical statement would still be entirely irrelevant to the question you’re asking.
In other words, you’re asking whether the scripture or ideas you’re using support your theological system. I should hope so, or else you wouldn’t even know the ropes of your own system.
This is a common theme in nearly all of Protestantism, and it’s even humorous to the rationalist onlooker sometimes (not that I’m a rationalist). All that to say, are you asking this en route of theology or ontology? You can ask them simultaneously (I agree the subjects to be related), but not integrally as you are proposing.
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Christian_Unity
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Do we choose according to our nature? Let’s consider this: If we put a bowl of steak next to a bowl of lettuce and carrots in front of a dog, which bowl would the dog choose? Now, let’s replace that dog with a rabbit and let it choose between the same bowl of steak and bowl of lettuce and carrots. What will the rabbit choose? We choose according to our nature (regenerate or unregenerate – Rom 8).
Our choices in life are always within certain parameters in which God’s sovereign hand determines for each one of us. Some are born with greater intelligence than others, some are born better looking, and some were born in a household of faith. There are 7.056 billion people in this world; therefore, we cannot have 7.056 billion free will entities that make choices which control the outcome of this world. God governs according to His wisdom and mankind does not determine his own fate or the outcome of this world. We as Christians do not believe in luck or fate, do we? We have to have faith and trust in God that He will keep His promises as revealed in the Scriptures because He has the power and ability to accomplish His sovereign will for His own glory and our good.
Our choices in life are always within certain parameters in which God’s sovereign hand determines for each one of us. Some are born with greater intelligence than others, some are born better looking, and some were born in a household of faith. There are 7.056 billion people in this world; therefore, we cannot have 7.056 billion free will entities that make choices which control the outcome of this world. God governs according to His wisdom and mankind does not determine his own fate or the outcome of this world. We as Christians do not believe in luck or fate, do we? We have to have faith and trust in God that He will keep His promises as revealed in the Scriptures because He has the power and ability to accomplish His sovereign will for His own glory and our good.
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Peter_Plato
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Our true nature is God created. The fall was a distortion of that and a corruption of our free will. The 7.056 billion wills that are impacting the world are not necessarily “free” wills, they are wills with some semblance of freedom, but much more likely are choosing and acting because of constraints and because of a warped and degenerated faculty of will which is not free. There is nothing in the sovereignty of God’s will that is necessarily in opposition to the true freedom of will for 7.056 billion. There is a difference between freedom of choice and freedom of will.
Again, my position would be that true freedom of will is only possible when our wills are freely aligned with the sovereign will of God, otherwise we do not truly possess free will, not matter how convinced we are otherwise.
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Christian_Unity
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To restore the free will in which Adam enjoyed prior to his one act of disobedience which corrupted the human race, what must the 7.056 billion people do as individuals? How does the need of being born again (born from above) according Jesus fit in with the recovery of our damaged will?
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Peter_Plato
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Being born again is recovery of a completely free will.
“For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Matt 12:50)
Yet, how can anyone actually do the will of God unless one also has the capacity or power to carry it out? Which is to say being born again is the sharing in solidarity, in common, the sovereign will of God, freely willing what God wills, being united in will and purpose but also being provided by God with the power (grace) to do his will. That is the only possibility because God has the sovereign power to force the compliance of all 7.056 billion humans, but doesn’t. Why not? He wants to empower us to do his will.
How could he command that we do his will if it is not in our power to do so?
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fhansen
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That’d be the equivalent of saying that God’s a rapist, torturer, etc.
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Christian_Unity
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“To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect.” John Owen
Does God empowers all 7.056 billions humans to chose Christ for life, or does He empowers those whom He has chosen before the foundations of the world to obey the gospel of God as a requirement to be an adopted child of God?
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1
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Christian_Unity
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Lamentations 3:37-38
Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?
Please explain your posts because it appears you are responding to Sacred Scripture.
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Peter_Plato
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He empowers all to do his will by grace. The power to make choices is ours as a necessary condition for free will, and that power comes from God but it is placed in our hands. We can only be held accountable for what we have been endowed with the power to carry out. It is that we choose not to make proper use of that power to fully carry out his will which would be the perfect option in all cases. The power is from God but must be made use of by us. That is why free will is key. It is our choice how we use that power. That is also why we bear responsibility, because we have all we need from God to carry out his will, but ultimately choose not to. The truth is that we have absolutely no power of our own, so Mr. Owen is correct, but we do have the will that can make proper use of the power given to us or not.
Perfect free will would do so, but imperfect or improper use of free will opens up the possibility of sin.
Take for example, the presidency. All the powers of the president are “endowed” to whoever is in that office by the people to act in their best behalf. Without their assent, he would have none of the powers that come with the office. However, once in office, the individual assuming the office could use the power that comes with it to make choices that were not possible to him before, but which could be harmful to others.
Free will is analogous to having been given the authority and power, by God, to act as human beings according to the responsibilities of that office (human nature.) It is not possible to be human without being empowered by God with the appropriate “power” to fulfill the role. It comes with the office, so to speak. The fact that it is abused by some does not mean that the office of “being human” is itself a bad thing, just when it is abused.
The inheritance is precisely the restoration of perfect free will (the will of God) in us by full cooperation with the Holy Spirit to remake us in his image, our perfect freedom in God, that was lost by slavery to sin. At the fall, we became less free and less complete because our wills were, as a result, blunted and scoured by sin. The sin of Adam was to make an imperfect choice to abdicate freedom for a lesser good.
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fhansen
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I was responding to your commentary. A verse or two out of 30000 or so shouldn’t impress many of us.
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Christian_Unity
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Check out my new signature
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Radyj
Guest
OP moved here as he was spinning circles trying to make us Calvinists, so he tries again
by making it seem as if by arguing against his twisted ideas of double predestination we are in fact arguing against the sovereignty of God.
Shall we start with what we know of God from Scripture.
God is Infinite and Eternal
All knowing
Holy
Righteous and Just
Love
True, Truth
All powerful
Immutable
Omnipresent
Sovereign
So yes God is Sovereign, now what does that mean? Well it means just as he is sovereign his is also his other qualities as well, in his sovereignty he could not be unjust, unholy, hateful, false or changing.
How is this a difficult discussion?
by making it seem as if by arguing against his twisted ideas of double predestination we are in fact arguing against the sovereignty of God.
Shall we start with what we know of God from Scripture.
God is Infinite and Eternal
All knowing
Holy
Righteous and Just
Love
True, Truth
All powerful
Immutable
Omnipresent
Sovereign
So yes God is Sovereign, now what does that mean? Well it means just as he is sovereign his is also his other qualities as well, in his sovereignty he could not be unjust, unholy, hateful, false or changing.
How is this a difficult discussion?
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fhansen
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Yes, it’s not difficult. A God who would not want His creation to be free to choose or reject love, to choose or reject Him, would be a smaller, shallower, weaker god-not particularly inspiring. And a god who’s the direct cause of evil, rather than one who simply permits it for His purposes, wouldn’t be capable of making heaven any better than hell.
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JamesATyler
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I have read through all of these posts. So far, I am not convinced that all things are happening according to God’s will. If that is so then what place is there in the world for sin? Isn’t sinning the act of going against God’s will?
And why would Jesus say that those who do his father’s will are his brother, sister, or mother? Doesn’t his statement suggest that some are not doing his father’s will?
So the answer is no. God’s sovereignty does not mean that all people are acting according to his will. However, that does not mean God is too weak to put any person into submission. And if he predestines someone then there is no way to change that.
Jesus says that every person will be judged according to his conduct. He implies that our conduct is what we are responsible for. I believe Jesus and Jesus is greater than Paul.
And why would Jesus say that those who do his father’s will are his brother, sister, or mother? Doesn’t his statement suggest that some are not doing his father’s will?
So the answer is no. God’s sovereignty does not mean that all people are acting according to his will. However, that does not mean God is too weak to put any person into submission. And if he predestines someone then there is no way to change that.
Jesus says that every person will be judged according to his conduct. He implies that our conduct is what we are responsible for. I believe Jesus and Jesus is greater than Paul.
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guanophore
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Oh I disagree with your assertion! Just the first part, though. I think that BECAUSE God is sovereign over all His creation, he created man in His own image and likeness, which includes the ability to choose. He then set before His creation, made in His image, the alternatives, and He, in His sovereignty, allows the consequences of each choice.
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guanophore
Guest
You are creating a false equivalency here. The fact that God created man with free will does NOT equate to “sovereignty of man”. Just as He created us with the ability to choose, so also He created boundaries among which we can choose, and consequences for our choices. We do not have the sovereignty to transcend these boundaries and consequences.
Acts 17:26-28
26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
No, this is a false dichotomy. God does rule and reign, and His way of doing so is in a creation that functions according to the parameters He has created. If functions according to the laws of physics that He established. He permits activity within His creation that is contrary from his desire for it.
Matt 23:37-39
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
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IgnatianPhilo
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I think the calvanist takes God’s sovereignty to far.
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guanophore
Guest
This is some kind of artificial construction that you seem to be using to promote your assertion to the contrary. You have already stated that you do not believe in free will at all, and now you have created some red herring you are calling “absolute free will”. I deny that any such thing exists.
Christians pray because we believe that it conforms the heart to God’s desire for us. Most of those who voted have no concern about God’s will for us. At least,that is what they said at teh exit polls.
And if the Jews had known the time of their visitation?
Again you are creating a false dichotomy. God, in his absolute sovereignty, created nature so that it functions according to the patterns He has deigned. Man has demonstrated that he is able, by his own will and sin, to interfere with some of these patterns, to bring destruction to God’s creation and the patterns through which it functions.
Again you are creating a false dichotomy. God “sending” hurricanes is not opposed by “just fate”, if indeed there is such a thing.
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