The Spanish Inquisition

[bobzills]

As I said, I didn’t watch it all because I got it on the eve of Passover,and the gruesome torture scenes, I felt, were not edifying for getting in the mood for the holiday (!)

You can look the DVD up to find out who the authorities were for it…or wait until I’ve had time to see the whole thing, and I’ll let you know. From what I did see so far, they interviewed some authorities but I forget who they were.

Its “The Inquisition” by the History Channel (DVD), Color, 100 mins., c 1999 A&E Network

If it is the DVD that I think it is, then it did get pretty good reviews except that it was thought to be a bit lightweight. I found that some Catholics recommend the book by Henry Kamen on the Spanish Inquisition as one which presents a fair and balanced view of the Inquisition. Perhaps the most comprehensive books on the Inquisition are those by Henry Charles Lea, although some Catholics tend to believe that his presentation may be biased to some extent.

 

[GKC]

If it is the DVD that I think it is, then it did get pretty good reviews except that it was thought to be a bit lightweight. I found that some Catholics recommend the book by Henry Kamen on the Spanish Inquisition as one which presents a fair and balanced view of the Inquisition. Perhaps the most comprehensive books on the Inquisition are those by Henry Charles Lea, although some Catholics tend to believe that his presentation may be biased to some extent.

Lea’s work was ground-breaking, but not only RCs find it a little tilted. In addition to Kamen, Peters’ INQUISITION is a good read. And Netanyahu’s ORIGINS OF THE INQUISITION IN FIFTEENTH CENTURY SPAIN, at around 1400 pages, will keep one busy for a while.

GKC

 

[HashemEchad]

Ever since learning of the history of my mom’s family (via a genealogist on her side of the family), I have become very interested in the history of the conversos (“Marranos”), but have trouble finding anything very detailed.

Cecil Roth’s work, “The History of the Marranos” is rather dated, and doesn’t include new findings pertaining to Americans and others who discovered their true converso heritage.

Since this is the right thread for it, I’d like to share a little bit of personal pain, relating to the Spanish Inquisition…I’ve always been a very religiously/morally conservative Jew, and have been very active in the pro-life and pro-family movements since the 1970s.

As a result, I’ve made close friends with many religious Catholics offline, and have been deeply impressed by both them and their religion.

But ever since learning of the true history of my mom’s family, and how they were told to either convert to Catholicism or be killed/forced to leave Spain (and later, Sicily), I’ve had some sad feelings about this church whose members I’d grown to love and respect for the most part. I just have very mixed feelings these days, and often felt torn between defending the church when she deserves defending, and wondering sometimes if I am dishonoring my ancestors by doing so.

 

[bobzills]

Ever since learning of the history of my mom’s family (via a genealogist on her side of the family), I have become very interested in the history of the conversos (“Marranos”), but have trouble finding anything very detailed.

What about the book by David M. Gitlitz, Secrecy and Deceit; The Religion of the Crypto-Jews, which is published by the Jewish Publication Society. It seems pretty detailed to me.

 

[Righteousone]

Ever since learning of the history of my mom’s family (via a genealogist on her side of the family), I have become very interested in the history of the conversos (“Marranos”), but have trouble finding anything very detailed.

Cecil Roth’s work, “The History of the Marranos” is rather dated, and doesn’t include new findings pertaining to Americans and others who discovered their true converso heritage.

Since this is the right thread for it, I’d like to share a little bit of personal pain, relating to the Spanish Inquisition…I’ve always been a very religiously/morally conservative Jew, and have been very active in the pro-life and pro-family movements since the 1970s.

As a result, I’ve made close friends with many religious Catholics offline, and have been deeply impressed by both them and their religion.

But ever since learning of the true history of my mom’s family, and how they were told to either convert to Catholicism or be killed/forced to leave Spain (and later, Sicily), I’ve had some sad feelings about this church whose members I’d grown to love and respect for the most part. I just have very mixed feelings these days, and often felt torn between defending the church when she deserves defending, and wondering sometimes if I am dishonoring my ancestors by doing so.

Here we go again, talking about how the Catholics were so bad…
This is just so grossly exaggerated…

 

[HashemEchad]

Here we go again, talking about how the Catholics were so bad…
This is just so grossly exaggerated…

My late mother descended from Spanish Jews who were forced to either be baptized or leave Spain (forced by Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic monarchs of that country).

They chose to leave, and went to Sicily, only to have the Spanish Inquisition catch up with them there (as well as with all the other Spanish Jews who left).

They decided to give up. They converted so they would not have to flee again, but kept practicing their Judaism in secret. Jews like this were called “conversos”.

YES, members of your church did these heinous things to innocent people who were minding their own business and just wanted to left alone.

Maybe now you see WHY your attempts to shove your beliefs in my face are so repellent and abhorrent to me? My ancestors had to flee for their lives because your religion was being forced upon them.

With my history, there is no way I’d ever willingly join such a religion, not when my ancestors had to give up almost everything they had because of it.

You really need to study the history of your own religion, and stop making excuses for horrible things members of your religion did.

 

[Righteousone]

My late mother descended from Spanish Jews who were forced to either be baptized or leave Spain (forced by Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic monarchs of that country).

They chose to leave, and went to Sicily, only to have the Spanish Inquisition catch up with them there (as well as with all the other Spanish Jews who left).

They decided to give up. They converted so they would not have to flee again, but kept practicing their Judaism in secret. Jews like this were called “conversos”.

YES, members of your church did these heinous things to innocent people who were minding their own business and just wanted to left alone.

Maybe now you see WHY your attempts to shove your beliefs in my face are so repellent and abhorrent to me? My ancestors had to flee for their lives because your religion was being forced upon them.

With my history, there is no way I’d ever willingly join such a religion, not when my ancestors had to give up almost everything they had because of it.

You really need to study the history of your own religion, and stop making excuses for horrible things members of your religion did.

Eh…you sound very angry from something you misunderstand some centuries ago. It wasn’t the Catholic church who did this. Your own people have written many books about this over exaggerated mindset set in most of the Jews. Why not read their books and then comment? Why can’t you read these books written by many Jews who know the truth of the Spanish Inquisition? As far as I’m concerned, the CC condemned bullfighting and that was it.
I really feel you are exaggerating this whole thing here. I know my history quite well, that is why I debate you. Perhaps you should research the truth about this. The real truth.

 

[HashemEchad]

Eh…you sound very angry from something you misunderstand some centuries ago. It wasn’t the Catholic church who did this. Your own people have written many books about this over exaggerated mindset set in most of the Jews. Why not read their books and then comment? Why can’t you read these books written by many Jews who know the truth of the Spanish Inquisition? As far as I’m concerned, the CC condemned bullfighting and that was it.
I really feel you are exaggerating this whole thing here. I know my history quite well, that is why I debate you. Perhaps you should research the truth about this. The real truth.

As a genealogist, I know Jewish history quite well, esp. the history as it pertains to my own family.

My Catholic grandmother grew up terrified of crucifixes; she used to tell me, “When you see one, it means someone is going to die”. I always thought that was a very odd thing for a “Catholic” person to believe, but when I researched history, I learned why she said that.

In medieval times, when Inquisitors went to the home of a converso accused of “Judaizing”, to arrest them, put them on trial and eventually martyr them, they would send a procession headed by someone carrying a crucifix.

This fear of the crucifix was handed down through the ages in converso families, for this reason.

I do feel deep resentment at the way the Spanish Catholic monarchs ruined, tore apart and disrupted innocent Jewish families in this manner.

What right did they have to do that to my ancestors, or anyones? How would Catholics have felt if another religion tried to force them to convert or be killed/driven out of their homes?

 

[Righteousone]

The Inquisition allowed monarchy to intervene actively in religious affairs. without the interference of the pope.
Henry Kamen wrote a book called simply “The Spanish Inquisition” and said it wasn’t nearly as cruel as people make it out to be.
The image of The Spanish Inquisition is a useful one for those who have little love for the Catholic church. Anyone wishing to beat the church about the head and shoulders will not tarry long before grabbing two favorite clubs: The Crusades and The spanish Inquisition.
One of the more enduring myths of the Inquisition, is that it was a tool of oppression imposed on unwilling Europeans by a power hungry church. Nothing could be more wrong.
In truth, the Inquisition brought order, justice and compassion to combat rampant secular and popular Persecutions of Heretics.
England expelled all Jews in 1290, France did the same in 1306. Yet, in Spain, Jews thrived at every level of society.
The king of Aragon, who had done his best to stop some attacks, decreed that any Jews who accepted baptism to avoid death could return to their religion.

 

[HashemEchad]

What book did you quote that from, without giving proper credit? Just curious.

I know that Henry Kamen is supposed to be an author favorable to the Catholic church. I would read his work, but also others as well. I would want a broader spectrum of opinion.

As for the Crusades, they were originally called by Pope Urban II to free the Holy Land from the Turkish Muslims, who were preventing Catholic pilgrims from accessing their holy places. There is, IMO no problem with that reason for the Crusades.

However, on the way to the Middle East, many Catholic Crusaders killed Jews in France and Germany. There were also some abuses that took place once they got to the Holy Land, which even the Catholic church does not deny.

Tell me, if your church was so holy and pure during the Crusades and the Inquisition, why did the late Pope John Paul II apologize for the many cruelties committed by his church and its members?

You dared me once before to prove he apologized, and I not only linked to news articles where he did so, I also linked directly to his formal statement at the Vatican website at vatican.va

Also, here: guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/13/catholicism.religion Inthat article, the current Pope (then Cardinal Ratzinger) said this:

<<<<Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, confessed to the sins of the congregation’s predecessor, the Inquisition. “Even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel,” he said.>>>

You slunk off after I did that, with no comment.

Care to comment now?

 

[Righteousone]

As a genealogist, I know Jewish history quite well, esp. the history as it pertains to my own family.

My Catholic grandmother grew up terrified of crucifixes; she used to tell me, “When you see one, it means someone is going to die”. I always thought that was a very odd thing for a “Catholic” person to believe, but when I researched history, I learned why she said that.

In medieval times, when Inquisitors went to the home of a converso accused of “Judaizing”, to arrest them, put them on trial and eventually martyr them, they would send a procession headed by someone carrying a crucifix.

This fear of the crucifix was handed down through the ages in converso families, for this reason.

I do feel deep resentment at the way the Spanish Catholic monarchs ruined, tore apart and disrupted innocent Jewish families in this manner.

What right did they have to do that to my ancestors, or anyones? How would Catholics have felt if another religion tried to force them to convert or be killed/driven out of their homes?

I understand some of your pain, but what about the pain of the Jews that wanted Christ to die? I mean, we know this is in the bible so I feel that talking about it is ok. What right did they have to want to crucify an innocent man? What right did they have to want Barrabas released, a murderer instead of Jesus? Why did they leave him there to die? Why, why, why? everyone is hurt in every religion, it is not one-sided as you make it seem. You can complain about the Inquisition, as I can complain about my Savior.

 

[Righteousone]

What book did you quote that from, without giving proper credit? Just curious.

I know that Henry Kamen is supposed to be an author favorable to the Catholic church. I would read his work, but also others as well. I would want a broader spectrum of opinion.

As for the Crusades, they were originally called by Pope Urban II to free the Holy Land from the Turkish Muslims, who were preventing Catholic pilgrims from accessing their holy places. There is, IMO no problem with that reason for the Crusades.

However, on the way to the Middle East, many Catholic Crusaders killed Jews in France and Germany. There were also some abuses that took place once they got to the Holy Land, which even the Catholic church does not deny.

Tell me, if your church was so holy and pure during the Crusades and the Inquisition, why did the late Pope John Paul II apologize for the many cruelties committed by his church and its members?

You dared me once before to prove he apologized, and I not only linked to news articles where he did so, I also linked directly to his formal statement at the Vatican website at vatican.va

You slunk off after I did that, with no comment.

Care to comment now?

I never said my church was perfect. Jesus said there would be good and evil in the church and not all members would go to heaven. But we have stood the test of time. We have stood for 2,000 years and are still here. Not by the cleverness of the bishops, but by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[HashemEchad]

I understand some of your pain, but what about the pain of the Jews that wanted Christ to die? I mean, we know this is in the bible so I feel that talking about it is ok. What right did they have to want to crucify an innocent man? What right did they have to want Barrabas released, a murderer instead of Jesus? Why did they leave him there to die? Why, why, why? everyone is hurt in every religion, it is not one-sided as you make it seem. You can complain about the Inquisition, as I can complain about my Savior.

Frankly, I don’t know, historically, if that happened because the NT is not really a history book, its a work of religious FAITH.

But even if it did happen, your own church, in the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, said that Catholics must not hold all Jews of all time responsible for that.

According to what is reported in the NT, Jesus did and said things that, by the standards of Jewish law, were blasphemous…he claimed to be God (chas ve’sholom); he claimed to want his followers to eat his flesh and drink his blood; he claimed he did not come to abolish the Torah, yet he told his followers to disobey the Torah several times. So how else would you expect religious Jews to feel?

How would you react to Catholics who said blasphemous things?

And one other thing I’d like you to think about: in your religion, you believe Jesus died for your sins, right?

So does that mean it was not really the Jews or the Romans, but CATHOLICS who crucified him, by their sins? Has the term “christ killer” been improperly applied to the wrong group?

The Catechism of the Council of Trent even says that Christians are MORE to blame for the suffering of Jesus than anyone else, because they know better than to sin, yet do it anyway, thus crucifying him anew.

And regardless of who crucified Jesus, are you not glad it was done? If it had not been done, according to your religious views, you would not have your sins forgiven, right?

 

[HashemEchad]

I never said my church was perfect. Jesus said there would be good and evil in the church and not all members would go to heaven. But we have stood the test of time. We have stood for 2,000 years and are still here. Not by the cleverness of the bishops, but by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Jewish people and the Jewish faith has also stood the test of time, and has been here for 3,500 years…about 1,500 years longer than the Catholic church.

Not only are we still here despite so MANY attempts to wipe us out, but God has seen fit to allow many of us to return to our Land for the first time in 2,000 years! Thereby, proving that contrary to traditional Christian belief, God is not ‘through with the Jews’, but we remain His people for all time.

 

[Righteousone]

Frankly, I don’t know, historically, if that happened because the NT is not really a history book, its a work of religious FAITH.

But even if it did happen, your own church, in the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate, said that Catholics must not hold all Jews of all time responsible for that.

According to what is reported in the NT, Jesus did and said things that, by the standards of Jewish law, were blasphemous…he claimed to be God (chas ve’sholom); he claimed to want his followers to eat his flesh and drink his blood; he claimed he did not come to abolish the Torah, yet he told his followers to disobey the Torah several times. So how else would you expect religious Jews to feel?

How would you react to Catholics who said blasphemous things?

And one other thing I’d like you to think about: in your religion, you believe Jesus died for your sins, right?

So does that mean it was not really the Jews or the Romans, but CATHOLICS who crucified him, by their sins? Has the term “christ killer” been improperly applied to the wrong group?

The Catechism of the Council of Trent even says that Christians are MORE to blame for the suffering of Jesus than anyone else, because they know better than to sin, yet do it anyway, thus crucifying him anew.

And regardless of who crucified Jesus, are you not glad it was done? If it had not been done, according to your religious views, you would not have your sins forgiven, right?

You cannot turn this one around Hashem. It is clearly written that the Jews wanted Christ dead…geez…even most of the Jews know this. The gospel of John makes it exceptionally clear that the Jews wanted him dead. Everyone knows this. The Catechism of the Council of Trent?? First of all, that is not true. The Catholic’s (here you go again with the blaming of us) are in NO WAY responsible for Christ’s death, because there weren’t any then.
There were only Jews and the Jews were responsible for Christ’s death. There is no way around this. If you’d like me to quote Scripture at least 600 times my evidence, I will.
I notice you CONSTANTLY BLAME CATHOLICS for everything. And I will not have that, especially when I know it isn’t true and I defend my church until the end.
And how else would I expect religious Jews to feel after they broke one of God’s holy commandments? THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR. Against Christ?

 

[Righteousone]

The Jewish people and the Jewish faith has also stood the test of time, and has been here for 3,500 years…about 1,500 years longer than the Catholic church.

Not only are we still here despite so MANY attempts to wipe us out, but God has seen fit to allow many of us to return to our Land for the first time in 2,000 years! Thereby, proving that contrary to traditional Christian belief, God is not ‘through with the Jews’, but we remain His people for all time.

Remaining his people for all times is debatable, especially since Jesus turned to Christianity. Just as Saul changed to Paul, Cephas to Peter. Both gentile names.

 

[HashemEchad]

You cannot turn this one around Hashem. It is clearly written that the Jews wanted Christ dead…geez…even most of the Jews know this. The gospel of John makes it exceptionally clear that the Jews wanted him dead. Everyone knows this. The Catechism of the Council of Trent?? First of all, that is not true. The Catholic’s (here you go again with the blaming of us) are in NO WAY responsible for Christ’s death, because there weren’t any then.
There were only Jews and the Jews were responsible for Christ’s death. There is no way around this. If you’d like me to quote Scripture at least 600 times my evidence, I will.
I notice you CONSTANTLY BLAME CATHOLICS for everything. And I will not have that, especially when I know it isn’t true and I defend my church until the end.
And how else would I expect religious Jews to feel after they broke one of God’s holy commandments? THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR. Against Christ?

Have you ever READ the Catechism of the Council of Trent? I advise getting a copy (TAN publishes it.)

Now, maybe I misunderstand Catholic theology. Here is your chance to correct me.

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe Jesus died for THEIR sins? Did I misunderstand that all this time?

Because, you know, if I was right, and Catholics DO believe Jesus died for THEIR sins, then that makes THEM christ killers. After all, doesn’t your NT say (about unbelieving Jews), …“IF THEY HAD KNOWN, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory”?

You see, Jews DO NOT BELIEVE (“know”) in Jesus, but Christians DO. Yet they still sin. How is this, when sin is what you believe put Jesus ON the cross?

Even the Trent Catechism says that the SIN of crucifying Jesus is GREATER in CHRISTIANS because they KNOW BETTER YET KEEP SINNING, therefore crucifying Jesus (in a sense), all over again.

Are you saying Jesus should NOT have been crucified?

Just answer me on these, yes or no.

So who is the real ‘christ killer’ now?

 

[Righteousone]

Have you ever READ the Catechism of the Council of Trent? I advise getting a copy (TAN publishes it.)

Now, maybe I misunderstand Catholic theology. Here is your chance to correct me.

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe Jesus died for THEIR sins? Did I misunderstand that all this time?

Because, you know, if I was right, and Catholics DO believe Jesus died for THEIR sins, then that makes THEM christ killers. After all, doesn’t your NT say (about unbelieving Jews), …“IF THEY HAD KNOWN, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory”?

You see, Jews DO NOT BELIEVE (“know”) in Jesus, but Christians DO. Yet they still sin. How is this, when sin is what you believe put Jesus ON the cross?

Even the Trent Catechism says that the SIN of crucifying Jesus is GREATER in CHRISTIANS because they KNOW BETTER YET KEEP SINNING, therefore crucifying Jesus (in a sense), all over again.

Are you saying Jesus should NOT have been crucified?

Just answer me on these, yes or no.

So who is the real ‘christ killer’ now?

You did not say that Catholics do not believe that Christ died for their sins. you said CATHOLICS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH. This is just another example how the Jews are in the greatest denial of their lives. When Jesus looked at Pilate and said “THE ONE WHO HAS HANDED ME OVER TO YOU HAS CAUSED THE GREATER SIN”. St. john repeatedly says “FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS” throughout his Gospel. Admit this happened, admit it was all political back then and I’d respect you more.
Why is it that it is SO CLEARLY STATED in the bible about the Jews wanted Jesus dead, yet TILL THIS DAY they deny it?

 

[HashemEchad]

You did not say that Catholics do not believe that Christ died for their sins. you said CATHOLICS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS DEATH. This is just another example how the Jews are in the greatest denial of their lives. When Jesus looked at Pilate and said “THE ONE WHO HAS HANDED ME OVER TO YOU HAS CAUSED THE GREATER SIN”. St. john repeatedly says “FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS” throughout his Gospel. Admit this happened, admit it was all political back then and I’d respect you more.
Why is it that it is SO CLEARLY STATED in the bible about the Jews wanted Jesus dead, yet TILL THIS DAY they deny it?

I’m about to give up with you, you know that?

Several “theology degrees”, and you claim to have taught in Catholic schools, yet you cannot grasp the basic Christian theology of atonement for sin by Jesus?

I am not talking about who PHYSICALLY put Jesus on the cross. I’m talking about the CHRISTIAN belief as to WHY he was put there. And Christian belief is that THE SINS OF CHRISTIANS PUT HIM THERE, thereby making THEM “CHRIST KILLERS” in the TRUEST sense of the term.

I think you need to talk to a priest, maybe he can explain to you what I’m talking about.

As for the deicide charge traditionally laid to the Jews, I have news for you: many historians (even nonJewish ones) are not even sure Jesus ever existed. I am one who is also not sure he ever existed.

So why would we be upset at being called “christ killers” when we are not sure he ever walked the earth?

The reason why we do not want to be called “christ killers” is because historically, Jews have been murdered, raped, robbed and forcibly converted by religious Christians because we were accused of having killed Jesus.

Priests would whip the crowds into frenzies in Russian Orthodox Russia and other places, esp. at Easter time, and they would go out and have a pogrom (look the word up, why don’t you?) Jews would be murdered en masse, because we were charged with having killed your deity.

Apart from that fact, I can think of no other reason why we would care.

 

[GKC]

What book did you quote that from, without giving proper credit? Just curious.

I know that Henry Kamen is supposed to be an author favorable to the Catholic church. I would read his work, but also others as well. I would want a broader spectrum of opinion.

As for the Crusades, they were originally called by Pope Urban II to free the Holy Land from the Turkish Muslims, who were preventing Catholic pilgrims from accessing their holy places. There is, IMO no problem with that reason for the Crusades.

However, on the way to the Middle East, many Catholic Crusaders killed Jews in France and Germany. There were also some abuses that took place once they got to the Holy Land, which even the Catholic church does not deny.

Tell me, if your church was so holy and pure during the Crusades and the Inquisition, why did the late Pope John Paul II apologize for the many cruelties committed by his church and its members?

You dared me once before to prove he apologized, and I not only linked to news articles where he did so, I also linked directly to his formal statement at the Vatican website at vatican.va

Also, here: guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/13/catholicism.religion Inthat article, the current Pope (then Cardinal Ratzinger) said this:

<<<<Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith, confessed to the sins of the congregation’s predecessor, the Inquisition. “Even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel,” he said.>>>

You slunk off after I did that, with no comment.

Care to comment now?

I’m commenting on another point. May I suggest again B. Netanyahu’s THE ORIGIN OF THE INQUISITION IN SPAIN IN THE FIFTEENTH CENTURY? You may recognise the author’s name. He’s the father of Yoni and Benjamin.

GKC