The Spanish Inquisition

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GKC said:
I’m commenting on another point. May I suggest again B. Netanyahu’s THE ORIGIN OF THE INQUISITION IN SPAIN IN THE FIFTEENTH CENTURY? You may recognise the author’s name. He’s the father of Yoni and Benjamin.

GKC
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I’d heard of his book, but have not yet read it. Thanks for the heads up on it!
 
HashemEchad said:
I’d heard of his book, but have not yet read it. Thanks for the heads up on it!
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At 1400 (approx) pages, it’s hefty. But it’s good. And so is Kamen and Peters. And, in a ground breaking way, Lea. But Lea has been superceded.

GKC
 
peary said:
Well, don’t ignore the fact that the Greek Orthodox also tortured Roman Catholics and Latin-rite communities in their areas.
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**It’s OK to behave in an unChristian way when treated in an unChristian way ? Surely not 😦 One wrong-doing is no excuse - let alone justification - for another. **​

 
Righteousone said:
Eh…you sound very angry from something you misunderstand some centuries ago. It wasn’t the Catholic church who did this. Your own people have written many books about this over exaggerated mindset set in most of the Jews. Why not read their books and then comment? Why can’t you read these books written by many Jews who know the truth of the Spanish Inquisition? As far as I’m concerned, the CC condemned bullfighting and that was it.
I really feel you are exaggerating this whole thing here. I know my history quite well, that is why I debate you. Perhaps you should research the truth about this. The real truth.
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Maybe getting emotionally distraught over what happened 500 years ago or more is the ‘in’ thing nowadays. I know I don’t have the luxury to do that. Life is short!
 
HashemEchad said:
I’m about to give up with you, you know that?

Several “theology degrees”, and you claim to have taught in Catholic schools, yet you cannot grasp the basic Christian theology of atonement for sin by Jesus?

I am not talking about who PHYSICALLY put Jesus on the cross. I’m talking about the CHRISTIAN belief as to WHY he was put there. And Christian belief is that THE SINS OF CHRISTIANS PUT HIM THERE, thereby making THEM “CHRIST KILLERS” in the TRUEST sense of the term.

I think you need to talk to a priest, maybe he can explain to you what I’m talking about.

As for the deicide charge traditionally laid to the Jews, I have news for you: many historians (even nonJewish ones) are not even sure Jesus ever existed. I am one who is also not sure he ever existed.

So why would we be upset at being called “christ killers” when we are not sure he ever walked the earth?

The reason why we do not want to be called “christ killers” is because historically, Jews have been murdered, raped, robbed and forcibly converted by religious Christians because we were accused of having killed Jesus.

Priests would whip the crowds into frenzies in Russian Orthodox Russia and other places, esp. at Easter time, and they would go out and have a pogrom (look the word up, why don’t you?) Jews would be murdered en masse, because we were charged with having killed your deity.

Apart from that fact, I can think of no other reason why we would care.
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You brought up the words “Christ killers”, not me. The Jews PHYSICALLY put Christ on the cross. They didn’t care who he was, but a threat to them and their money making in the temples.
All you do is have that “woe is me” attitude about the poor Jews being persecuted. What about others? What about the blacks who were raped and forced into slavery over the centuries? The Catholics and other Christian parties who have been tortured in the name of God and were martyred for the faith? What about them?
Point being here is you are not alone. Millions of non-Jews were killed and slaughtered.
 
Righteousone said:
You brought up the words “Christ killers”, not me. The Jews PHYSICALLY put Christ on the cross. They didn’t care who he was, but a threat to them and their money making in the temples.
All you do is have that “woe is me” attitude about the poor Jews being persecuted. What about others? What about the blacks who were raped and forced into slavery over the centuries? The Catholics and other Christian parties who have been tortured in the name of God and were martyred for the faith? What about them?
Point being here is you are not alone. Millions of non-Jews were killed and slaughtered.
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Maybe you forget that I told you I have spent a lifetime working to end religious and ethnic prejudice, regardless of which group is being persecuted.

I am very active in trying to stop Communist Chinese persecution of Tibetan Buddhists.

I am also very active in trying to publicize the genocide of the Armenian Christians carried out by the Muslim Turks during WW One. In fact, I’m affiliated with this website:

armeniangenocidewalk.com

I have been active for YEARS in trying to publicize persecution of Christians and others, I do not focus only on my own people.

Can YOU say the same? Or do you only care about Catholics?
 
I think some of you are missing a very important point with regard to the myth that the Jews murdered their own prophet (Christ), and that point is what is in both the Apostles and Nicene creeds:
that Christ suffered UNDER PONTIUS PILATE. The creeds emphatically state that Our Lord suffered UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, and the rest confirms everything else: Christ was crucified UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, Christ died UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, and was buried BECAUSE OF PONTIUS PILATE. I cannot see where any other interpretation can be given. To say that the early church blamed Jews for the death of Christ is not in keeping with the accepted creeds. Anti-semitism has reared its ugly head for centuries, even among Church members, but, regardless, the Jews had nothing to do with the suffering, crucifixion, and death of Christ. Pontius Pilate, however, did.
 
peary said:
I think some of you are missing a very important point with regard to the myth that the Jews murdered their own prophet (Christ), and that point is what is in both the Apostles and Nicene creeds:
that Christ suffered UNDER PONTIUS PILATE. The creeds emphatically state that Our Lord suffered UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, and the rest confirms everything else: Christ was crucified UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, Christ died UNDER PONTIUS PILATE, and was buried BECAUSE OF PONTIUS PILATE. I cannot see where any other interpretation can be given. To say that the early church blamed Jews for the death of Christ is not in keeping with the accepted creeds. Anti-semitism has reared its ugly head for centuries, even among Church members, but, regardless, the Jews had nothing to do with the suffering, crucifixion, and death of Christ. Pontius Pilate, however, did.
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Then you do not know your Gospels very well my friend.
When Jesus turned to Pilate and said “THE ONE WHO HAS HANDED ME OVER TO YOU HAS THE GREATER SIN”.
Pilate faced the Jews and said 3 times “I FIND NO GUILT IN THIS MAN”.
To which Pilate wanted to release Jesus 3 TIMES.
When Pilate washed his hands of this man.
When Pilate gave the Jews a choice “BARRABBAS OR JESUS”.
You are entirely in denial of the Jews not wanting him dead, try reading St. John’s gospel. In it almost every chapter tells of “THE JEWS WANTING JESUS DEAD”.

Stop sugar coating here, it is what it is.
 
And it says SUFFERED under Pontius Pilate, not DIED under Pontius Pilate.
 
Righteousone said:
Then you do not know your Gospels very well my friend.
When Jesus turned to Pilate and said “THE ONE WHO HAS HANDED ME OVER TO YOU HAS THE GREATER SIN”.
Pilate faced the Jews and said 3 times “I FIND NO GUILT IN THIS MAN”.
To which Pilate wanted to release Jesus 3 TIMES.
When Pilate washed his hands of this man.
When Pilate gave the Jews a choice “BARRABBAS OR JESUS”.
You are entirely in denial of the Jews not wanting him dead, try reading St. John’s gospel. In it almost every chapter tells of “THE JEWS WANTING JESUS DEAD”.

Stop sugar coating here, it is what it is.
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If the Jews wanted Jesus dead, then the early Church wouldn’t have been comprised of a Jewish majority in the first place. No, I place my bets that this was all hashed out when the Creeds were written. The Church made an historical statement with the Creeds - it did not blame the Jews for the death of Christ.
 
The NT does seem to blame “the Jews” (as a whole) for the death of Jesus. The gospel of John has a long history of being considered antisemitic, for this reason.

However, we need to keep one thing in mind. Christians do believe that Jesus died for their sins, right?

If so, and they TRULY believe that, then

a) They should be thanking WHOEVER was responsible for crucifying Jesus, because otherwise, they would not have what they believe to be salvation, and

b) they should recognize that in truth, by their OWN theology, THEIR OWN SINS put him on the cross, which means CHRISTIANS, BY THEIR SINS AND BY THEIR OWN THEOLOGY, were the true christ killers.
 
HashemEchad said:
The NT does seem to blame “the Jews” (as a whole) for the death of Jesus. The gospel of John has a long history of being considered antisemitic, for this reason.

However, we need to keep one thing in mind. Christians do believe that Jesus died for their sins, right?
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How do we put an end to anti-semitism and also the anti-Christian feelings of some non-Christians? Perhaps we can find some area of agreement where we can work together in mutual respect in spite of the rather serious differences between us?
 
bobzills said:
How do we put an end to anti-semitism and also the anti-Christian feelings of some non-Christians? Perhaps we can find some area of agreement where we can work together in mutual respect in spite of the rather serious differences between us?
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That’s what ecumenical work is originally supposed to be for: to find areas of COMMONALITY.

I have always much preferred to focus on what Jews and Christians have in common, rather than on what divides us.

The major problem is that some Christians zealously seek to convert Jews to their religion, and because of this, Jews often are then compelled to defend their faith, which of course points out the differences once again.

If we could find some way to mutually respect each others’ faiths, and allow discussions to center around mutual understanding, maybe we’d get somewhere.

I have made it a lifetime hobby to study the religions of the world, with special focus on traditional Catholicism, since half my family is Catholic and I have the most association with them.

One reason I have done this is so I CAN understand the other religions, because I find, just as the seasoned traveler does, learning about “the other” helps lessen contempt and ignorance.
 
HashemEchad said:
The NT does seem to blame “the Jews” (as a whole) for the death of Jesus. The gospel of John has a long history of being considered antisemitic, for this reason.

However, we need to keep one thing in mind. Christians do believe that Jesus died for their sins, right?

If so, and they TRULY believe that, then

a) They should be thanking WHOEVER was responsible for crucifying Jesus, because otherwise, they would not have what they believe to be salvation, and

b) they should recognize that in truth, by their OWN theology, THEIR OWN SINS put him on the cross, which means CHRISTIANS, BY THEIR SINS AND BY THEIR OWN THEOLOGY, were the true christ killers.
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Jews can never admit to the death of Jesus and never will.
The sooner that the Jews discover that Jesus also died for them, the better the world will be.
And now to call St. John an anti-semite is totally off the wall and absurd. The man called it like it was and for you to DENY otherwise is a terrible sin against God.
Even though the Jews yelled CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM, they will still say that it wasn’t them. :banghead: 🤷
 
Righteousone said:
Jews can never admit to the death of Jesus and never will.
The sooner that the Jews discover that Jesus also died for them, the better the world will be.
And now to call St. John an anti-semite is totally off the wall and absurd. The man called it like it was and for you to DENY otherwise is a terrible sin against God.
Even though the Jews yelled CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM, they will still say that it wasn’t them. :banghead: 🤷
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If I truly felt all Jews, everywhere, “killed Jesus”, I’d admit to it. Why not? He was not anyone special to me, so why would I care?

But when historians doubt his very existence, why should I get worked up over someone and something that might not have ever been?

I find it odd that you refuse to address my point that, according to Christian theology, CHRISTIANS are the true crucifiers, since they believe (not me, I don’t believe this, remember) that THEIR SINS are WHY he was crucified.

So whether it was Romans or Jews who physically crucified him, don’t you think you and all Christians should be THANKING whomever did it? Because if they did not do it, you wouldn’t have the salvation you claim you have.

Right?
 
Righteousone said:
Jews can never admit to the death of Jesus and never will.
The sooner that the Jews discover that Jesus also died for them, the better the world will be.
And now to call St. John an anti-semite is totally off the wall and absurd. The man called it like it was and for you to DENY otherwise is a terrible sin against God.
Even though the Jews yelled CRUCIFY HIM, CRUCIFY HIM, they will still say that it wasn’t them. :banghead: 🤷
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“Father, forgive them; they know not what they do”

Familiar words. Why not observe them?
 
HashemEchad said:
If I truly felt all Jews, everywhere, “killed Jesus”, I’d admit to it. Why not? He was not anyone special to me, so why would I care?

But when historians doubt his very existence, why should I get worked up over someone and something that might not have ever been?

I find it odd that you refuse to address my point that, according to Christian theology, CHRISTIANS are the true crucifiers, since they believe (not me, I don’t believe this, remember) that THEIR SINS are WHY he was crucified.

So whether it was Romans or Jews who physically crucified him, don’t you think you and all Christians should be THANKING whomever did it? Because if they did not do it, you wouldn’t have the salvation you claim you have.

Right?
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No my friend. You are wrong. Why would I thank someone for the suffering of Jesus Christ? For the horrible crucifixtion, the pain He and His mother went through? That is a terrible ARROGANT statement. Jesus died for you. Don’t you get it?
Jesus KNEW He was going to die. It was the plan for salvation. YOUR salvation.
For someone who bolsters constantly their knowledge about Catholicism, you certainly don’t know even a qua-trillion of an 1/8 of what it’s all about.
The denial of Christ everywhere by the Jews is just ONE of the many sins Christ died for. Get it?
When Jesus fell carrying the cross and looked at the women of Israel and said “WOMEN, DO NOT WEEP FOR ME BUT FOR YOU AND YOR CHILDREN.” What do you think that meant?
 
Righteousone said:
Well then I guess we are all forgiven of our sins right now…🤷 you sound like a Protestant’s osas.
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You don’t understand. I’m saying that Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It doesn’t matter if it was the Jews or the Romans, because our obligation is the same. Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. I’m not saying that all our sins are forgiven, but that we must forgive as God forgives. It is not our place to judge.

You’re totally misinterpreting what I said.
 
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