The Spiritual And Social Fate of the Regretful Transsexual

[Elizabeth502]

Dale, I’m not sure why you call me Catherine. Perhaps you’re confusing me with someone else?

 

[Methodi]

Until we walk in the shoes of transexuals & Homosexuals, we can never know the pain they suffer from early on, they are indeed heavy crosses, these people struggle their whole lives with these two things , because they know they are different & can really never fit in, they always feel like they are on the outside looking in, or watching the parade pass them by. These people are not that way because they want to be either

 

[Elizabeth502]

Until we walk in the shoes of transexuals & Homosexuals, we can never know the pain they suffer from early on, they are indeed heavy crosses, these people struggle their whole lives with these two things , because they know they are different & can really never fit in, they always feel like they are on the outside looking in, or watching the parade pass them by. These people are not that way because they want to be either

You don’t think people with other kinds of differences are plagued and pained by not fitting in, by “watching the parade pass them by”? You also don’t know how these other people suffer. None of us can know from the inside how every single person who is not ‘mainstream’ suffers.

Suffering is subjective. You said so yourself. No one here has any basis for ranking the sufferings of others – positively or negatively. Do not presume that any one suffering is “greater” or more severe than all the rest. We know one thing: all suffering is an opportunity for union with Christ. That’s what we know. I’m not saying that a person shouldn’t have an operation. I’m cautioning in general against the illusion that resolving all internal conflicts and all societal conflicts will lead the individual to happiness, when, as St. Augustine says, our hearts are restless until they rest in God.

 

[Methodi]

You don’t think people with other kinds of differences are plagued and pained by not fitting in, by “watching the parade pass them by”? You also don’t know how these other people suffer. None of us can know from the inside how every single person who is not ‘mainstream’ suffers.

Suffering is subjective. You said so yourself. No one here has any basis for ranking the sufferings of others – positively or negatively. Do not presume that any one suffering is “greater” or more severe than all the rest. We know one thing: all suffering is an opportunity for union with Christ. That’s what we know. I’m not saying that a person shouldn’t have an operation. I’m cautioning in general against the illusion that resolving all internal conflicts and all societal conflicts will lead the individual to happiness, when, as St. Augustine says, our hearts are restless until they rest in God.

I am sorry, But I think it is a terrible suffering, these people are like outcasts a lot of times even by their own families. It is a terrible cross to bear i am sorry & no one understands all they do is condemn, & your right, none of us can know the suffering of others, they can only know their own suffering , in comparism to normal people, & people are unkind to them, what a life

 

[Elizabeth502]

I am sorry, But I think it is a terrible suffering, these people are like outcasts a lot of times even by their own families. It is a terrible cross to bear i am sorry & no one understands all they do is condemn, & your right, none of us can know the suffering of others, they can only know their own suffering , in comparism to normal people, & people are unkind to them, what a life

And I am sorry that people are unkind to deaf people, to retarded people, to people with mental illness, to people of certain ethnic backgrounds, to homeless people, to beggars, to people who stammer & have other speech impediments, to people with various kinds of palsy, to dwarfs and midgets, to ex-convicts, recovered alcoholics and similar people trying to turn their lives around.

It’s just that to many people in modern American society, those ^^ people are not as “visible” as the LGBT community, which has a more well-oiled PR machine than some of the above outcasts, whose outcast position has barely changed since Jesus’ day.

You see, to speak as if the greatest sufferings revolve around gender and sexuality is also to imply that the greatest joy revolves around these aspects of being human. What a disordered world!

 

[Methodi]

And I am sorry that people are unkind to deaf people, to retarded people, to people with mental illness, to people of certain ethnic backgrounds, to homeless people, to beggars, to people who stammer & have other speech impediments, to people with various kinds of palsy, to dwarfs and midgets, to ex-convicts, recovered alcoholics and similar people trying to turn their lives around.

It’s just that to many people in modern American society, those ^^ people are not as “visible” as the LGBT community, which has a more well-oiled PR machine than some of the above outcasts, whose outcast position has barely changed since Jesus’ day.

You see, to speak as if the greatest sufferings revolve around gender and sexuality is also to imply that the greatest joy revolves around these aspects of being human. What a disordered world!

One of the basic social needs is acceptance, & most of the transexuals & Homosexual people dont have it, so they never are able to fully evolve into the persons they should be. They become scarred for life, so they do what they gotta do

 

[Elizabeth502]

One of the basic social needs is acceptance, & most of the transexuals & Homosexual people dont have it, so they never are able to fully evolve into the persons they should be. They become scarred for life, so they do what they gotta do

Need I repeat – or add to – the list of the Non-Accepted (outside of transsexuals and homosexuals) who have virtually no one advocating for them – unlike the LGBT community?

I just said it, and I guess I’ll have to say it again: Those OTHER people have also not gained “acceptance” (“the basic social need”). Many of them operate on the margins of society, in some cases rejected not just by mainstream society, but by their intimate circle such as family, close friends. They live lives of loneliness, isolation, and often poverty and intense suffering.

Yes, I’m sure that the suffering of any internally conflicted person is great. It’s just that no one but God is in a position to compare the suffering of one person to that of another. These are not objectively knowable comparisons; they are relative to the individual, the individual’s other sufferings, the individual’s capacity to survive suffering, emotional threshold and inborn emotional strength, support network, receptivity to God’s grace, disposition to receive grace, etc.

 

[Methodi]

Need I repeat – or add to – the list of the Non-Accepted (outside of transsexuals and homosexuals) who have virtually no one advocating for them – unlike the LGBT community?

I just said it, and I guess I’ll have to say it again: Those OTHER people have also not gained “acceptance” (“the basic social need”). Many of them operate on the margins of society, in some cases rejected not just by mainstream society, but by their intimate circle such as family, close friends. They live lives of loneliness, isolation, and often poverty and intense suffering.

Yes, I’m sure that the suffering of any internally conflicted person is great. It’s just that no one but God is in a position to compare the suffering of one person to that of another. These are not objectively knowable comparisons; they are relative to the individual, the individual’s other sufferings, the individual’s capacity to survive suffering, emotional threshold and inborn emotional strength, support network, receptivity to God’s grace, disposition to receive grace, etc.

I disagree, There are many people suffering badly, & some have no suffering at all, it seems. There are various degrees of suffering, Being Homosexual and the like, to me are bad suffering, you are whispered about no matter how u try to behave, been there .Mental illness & inner conflict that never ends, to me are worse than physical ailments. When Your mind is messed up, so to speak, You hardly have a chance.

 

[Annn]

Need I repeat – or add to – the list of the Non-Accepted (outside of transsexuals and homosexuals) who have virtually no one advocating for them – unlike the LGBT community?

I just said it, and I guess I’ll have to say it again: Those OTHER people have also not gained “acceptance” (“the basic social need”). Many of them operate on the margins of society, in some cases rejected not just by mainstream society, but by their intimate circle such as family, close friends. They live lives of loneliness, isolation, and often poverty and intense suffering.

Yes, I’m sure that the suffering of any internally conflicted person is great. It’s just that no one but God is in a position to compare the suffering of one person to that of another. These are not objectively knowable comparisons; they are relative to the individual, the individual’s other sufferings, the individual’s capacity to survive suffering, emotional threshold and inborn emotional strength, support network, receptivity to God’s grace, disposition to receive grace, etc.

I hope you’re not discounting the disability rights movement, which I follow and see as very important to the improvement of our society! As the sister of a disabled brother, I am very supportive of those disabled Amerians who stand up for their rights as individuals. I recommend reading the writings of Simi Linton for more insight, as she is a leader of the movement.

 

[Dale_M]

Dale, I’m not sure why you call me Catherine. Perhaps you’re confusing me with someone else?

I apologize for calling you Catherine, but I did quote you many times and if you have a response to my replies to your quotes I would appreciate hearing them.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I disagree, There are many people suffering badly, & some have no suffering at all, it seems. There are various degrees of suffering,

And some people who have suffered the worst imaginable pains and slights have been canonized. We are taught that God does not deliver suffering beyond the individual’s ability to manage it, provided that person is willing to be open to God’s grace within that suffering.

Being Homosexual and the like, to me are bad suffering, you are whispered about no matter how u try to behave, been there .Mental illness & inner conflict that never ends, to me are worse than physical ailments. When Your mind is messed up, so to speak, You hardly have a chance.

^^ …again with the subjective judgments. Unless you’re in a position to know from the inside the universe of physical ailments, you cannot make a judgment that your suffering is “worse” than another person’s – whatever form that takes in the other person. You can only make a judgment that your personal mental sufferings are more difficulty than your personal physical sufferings.

 

[aspawloski4th]

And Jesus didn’t have enormous, overwhelming, cosmic internal pain? And you don’t think there may be other individuals on the planet whose pain is as or even more severe than yours, but who are managing to deal with it? And, possibly, if they are Christian, do what we use to call “offer it up”? Maybe there are people being tortured right now, wrongfully imprisoned (gender mis-identity is sometimes referred to as a kind of imprisonment), etc.? What about all those people in Australia who just lost absolutely everything in the fires – all they hold dear, all their memories? Some of those people are in a state of despair and will never fully recover, and certainly cannot reverse the effects of their circumstances, even if they can find new circumstances.

So what do we do when we can’t change our circumstances – even when the pain is as or more excruciating than what you endured? Do we not find a way to transform those sufferings constructively?

What you are describing is a kind of mental pain or even mental torture. But thousands of other people on planet Earth, through the centuries, have experienced excruciating mental pain – some because of mental illness, some because of unjust or unfortunate circumstances. Unless you can prove that gender mis-identity is so unique in difficulty and agony as to warrant exceptional measures (vs. degrees of suffering for those other situations), it’s difficult for me to view this as a suffering beyond all sufferings.

Again, I apologize if I come off as cold.

Last night, in one of many of his repeat lectures, Fr. John Corapi was discussing how privileged we Christians should feel to share in the redemptive suffering of Christ. He wasn’t lecturing from a theoretical model (theology), but rather from the experience of a couple of people he had known, whom he had watched in the last (visionary) stages of their lives – people who had previewed the “joy” (in their words) of being united with Christ in his suffering.

We always want some other cross than the one we’re being given. Especially in this modern society, which values the Pursuit of (perceived) Happiness at all costs.

I never compare any and I mean any fellow human’s suffering to Jesus Christ. While Jesus was human, we seem to forget he is God also. To comare my self, yourself or anyone else to God( either of the 3 persons who make up God) in any aspect what so ever I consider wrong and will never do.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Until we walk in the shoes of transexuals & Homosexuals, we can never know the pain they suffer from early on, they are indeed heavy crosses, these people struggle their whole lives with these two things , because they know they are different & can really never fit in, they always feel like they are on the outside looking in, or watching the parade pass them by. These people are not that way because they want to be either

Thankyou, couldn’t say that any better myself.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I hope you’re not discounting the disability rights movement, which I follow and see as very important to the improvement of our society! As the sister of a disabled brother, I am very supportive of those disabled Amerians who stand up for their rights as individuals. I recommend reading the writings of Simi Linton for more insight, as she is a leader of the movement.

Not at all, Ann. I’m merely saying that transsexuals do not have a monopoly on suffering, while they do have (unlike many groups I mentioned) very strong, visible advocacy groups. I don’t need to read anything about it because I’m quite aware of the general protections of the disabled, including of specific subsets thereof. That does not mean that individuals with disabilities are not treated unkindly (vs. transsexuals). Depends on the disability. And there are plenty of non-transsexuals, non-disabled who still fall into the category of the marginalized and powerless in society. Being homeless in a capitalistic, individualistic society can be a great social shame, particularly if one comes from a place of relative comfort, previously. Your entire previous social group turns their backs on you and judges you severely.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I never compare any and I mean any fellow human’s suffering to Jesus Christ. While Jesus was human, we seem to forget he is God also. To comare my self, yourself or anyone else to God( either of the 3 persons who make up God) in any aspect what so ever I consider wrong and will never do.

I’m sorry, but your theology is off-base. By sharing in the redemptive suffering of Christ, we are not “comparing ourselves” to Him. We are, rather, united to him and with him in the Paschal mystery. We are called to follow the Way of the Cross quite specifically. Jesus himself mentions this in the Gospels. Indeed, the “church militant” (as the church on earth is called) is part of the Mystical Body of Christ. This is classic Catholic theology. There is nothing “wrong” about it. The very concept was articulated by Jesus, not to mention by Paul additionally, by the early Church fathers, and by all the Saints.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Need I repeat – or add to – the list of the Non-Accepted (outside of transsexuals and homosexuals) who have virtually no one advocating for them – unlike the LGBT community?

I just said it, and I guess I’ll have to say it again: Those OTHER people have also not gained “acceptance” (“the basic social need”). Many of them operate on the margins of society, in some cases rejected not just by mainstream society, but by their intimate circle such as family, close friends. They live lives of loneliness, isolation, and often poverty and intense suffering.

Yes, I’m sure that the suffering of any internally conflicted person is great. It’s just that no one but God is in a position to compare the suffering of one person to that of another. These are not objectively knowable comparisons; they are relative to the individual, the individual’s other sufferings, the individual’s capacity to survive suffering, emotional threshold and inborn emotional strength, support network, receptivity to God’s grace, disposition to receive grace, etc.

I would hope those other people gain acceptance too. The first 9 years of my education was in special ed with emotionally impaired, autistic and learning disabled children, I had to hid I was a bed wetter also. I have a mentally ill uncle who shot a mailman for putting his SSI check in thew wrong mailbox when he took himself off his medication… I have a friend who still shows big time autism symptoms. So I know plenty about those who have been marginalized. Thats no reason to stop what I’m doing about transgenders.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’m sorry, but your theology is off-base. By sharing in the redemptive suffering of Christ, we are not “comparing ourselves” to Him. We are, rather, united to him and with him in the Paschal mystery. We are called to follow the Way of the Cross quite specifically. Jesus himself mentions this in the Gospels. Indeed, the “church militant” (as the church on earth is called) is part of the Mystical Body of Christ. This is classic Catholic theology. There is nothing “wrong” about it. The very concept was articulated by Jesus, not to mention by Paul additionally, by the early Church fathers, and by all the Saints.

To say Im capable of doing what he did, handling that type of suuferig included is putting my self on the same level as him. I will never do that.

 

[jacie]

Aspawloski4th, I hate to be nosy, but have you had gender surgery, or do you want to have it? Just wondering how you reconcile that with your Catholic faiith? I’m not asking in order to bash or insult you, I just think this is an interesting discussion.

 

[Elizabeth502]

To say Im capable of doing what he did, handling that type of suuferig included is putting my self on the same level as him. I will never do that.

No one said that. I, not to mention Jesus, not to mention his Church, say that our personal sufferings are united to the sufferings of Christ, who, through his suffering, death, and Resurrection, sanctifies and glorifies our suffering by uniting us to himself. I’m not sure where you received your catechesis, but it is lacking, as you seem not to understand this basic, essential theology of Christology and the Paschal mystery. United in suffering does not mean “equivalent” or “on the same plane” as Jesus. It does not mean that we suffer cosmically, in the degree that he suffered. It means that our suffering, when united to his, is redemptive, transformative, and ultimately unitive.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Aspawloski4th, I hate to be nosy, but have you had gender surgery, or do you want to have it? Just wondering how you reconcile that with your Catholic faiith? I’m not asking in order to bash or insult you, I just think this is an interesting discussion.

Very fair question. Im a male to female transsexual. Nature developed my body wrong. Yes Id like very much to transition and have it come to completion. How do I rencile with my faith? Lets look at other aspects of me. My votring recod is 100% riight to life, No one defends the doctrin of Purgatory more stridently than me, I even belince the Tridentine Latin Mass is the best availble Mass. Nature made my body develope incorrectly, I dont deny science. The church has npoofficial copmprehensive stnce yet, just individual opinions.