Where did you get the notion that in the EF Mass may not be celebrated after 12 noon? That was once true, but Piux XII allowed evening Masses beginning in the early fifties. They were perfectly permissible in the 1962 missal.
Now, just who is being the judge here?Typical RC trads, we must have all the smells and bells but none of the asetical
discipline that goes along with it. I can have no respect for Trad RCers who do away with the traditional fasting of the Western church, but screem bloody murder if a word of the Mass is changed. You trads need to take a leaf out of the Traditional Orthodox (old calender folks) book. They will show you how to be Traditional!
Either your Traditional about everything or you become a cafeteria catholic just like the progressives.
I truly have no idea what you are talking about, other than trying to provoke a fight (which you ought to know is a sin.)
And most Trads have lived with being called “schismatics” and worse for close to 40 years. All for wanting a rite of Mass that was always their right to have to begin with(and also wanting a return to stricter discipline in seminaries, a return to priests acting like priests and not social workers or worse, a return to traditional devotions, a return to Eucharistic devotion, etc.).
The Luminous Mysteries were introduced as an option for the Holy Year. They were never mandatory, and never will be. But it’s a moot point whether one wants to pray them or not. Private devotions are meant to help the faithful, and if someone can become closer to God or Our Lady through praying them, then they should do so. Personally, I prefer the traditional mysteries that are meant to echo the Psalter. But to each his own. There’s something in the Church for everyone. That’s why it’s Universal.
I do not think there is such a source to be found but none the less that is the active definition here at Catholic Answers Forums.
Jesus didn’t condemn long prayers, repetitions, and so forth; he condemned the superstitious thinking prevalent among the Gentiles of that time, which believed that their “gods” could be bound by repeating certain prayers in specific orders, or that the repetition of incantations can have a supernatural effect.
Certainly it isn’t forbidden to pray the Psalms, some of which are more repetitious than any chaplet, Rosary, or litany. Thus, we may conclude that the Protestant attempt at exegesis concerning Jesus’ condemnation of “long prayer,” if taken to its logical conclusion in condemning Catholic litanies, the Rosary, etc, would also condemn large portions of the Bible itself. Thank God we have true Apostolic authority, and aren’t reduced to such a state of the “blind leading the blind.”
Precisely. And it is disheartening to see the vitriol that is sometimes directed at the Eastern Churches when the fact is presented that they are Traditional Catholics. Bishop Basil, before he was banned, said that he received e-mails telling him to “go back to your eastern ghetto.”
I agree with you but it is a fight that we can not win here at CAF.
basilphx was a bishop? Awesome. When was that announced and why was he banned? I never saw vitriol directed at Eastern Catholics. What I did see, was Eastern Catholics jumping on Latin-Rite Catholics for not including Eastern Liturgies in their discussions.
Or be a non-traditionalist who appreciates the TLM more. And you don’t even need to be Catholic to do that.
Basilphx was banned? What in the world for?
Glad you can! Yes, i can too!By the way, how is that “New Pentecost” coming along? I can feel the renewal of the Church in the air, can’t you?
m convinced that Benedict has started to deliver the true fruits of Vatican II: eg a renewal of a love and appreciation of the TLM that was largely missing by the time of VII because it was always available and was taken for granted. Too many of us dont appreciate what we have until we lose it. We lukewarm Laodicean types needed a kick in the teeth.s baloney!*** im (just) old enough to remember the pre-VII Church, and there were already problems. For a start, the faith of a lot of pre-VII Catholics (eg my sister) was cold and bloodless, like the attitude of the prodigal sons elder brother: a grudging, servile "faith". Dissent was there, but was suppressed by sheer disclipine. If the bomb hadnt gone off when it did, it would have gone off eventually, and the devastation would have been worse. The lid couldn`t have been kept on indefinitely.m the first to have a bit of a dig at the Novus Ordo: The Novus Ordo versus The No Mess Ordo. ***BUT the Novus Ordo is valid! FULL STOP!*** The revised Missal translation will make it even better. And hopefully there will be some cross-fertilization twixt the two.Absolutely agreed. But then the new Pentecost means rejecting the post-Vatican II liturgical changes, not embracing them.
Vatican II didn’t solve any problem of lukewarmness, however. There have always been faithful, devout Catholics. Before Vatican II, they were in the pews with everyone else; today, they attend the Tridentine Mass while the rest of the Church attends the NO Mass. Vatican II didn’t create the traditionalist movement; it only physically separated us regarding what churches we attend. In other words, it created a schism.
That was why Pope St. Pius X started the reform movement continued by Pius XII, and abruptly halted by Vatican II. There was a reform of the lukewarmness and liturgical imperfections by the popes whom traditionalists tend to view as role models for orthodoxy, just as there was a Catholic reform at the Council of Trent alongside the Protestant revolt.
I hope it is valid - I have some doubts because of the mistranslation of the words of Consecration, which the revised translation will correct. There are certainly some aspects of the Novus Ordo which should have been incorporated into the 1962 Missal, such as having the Epistle read (but by the sub-deacon, not by your local lesbian) versus populum, singing the full responsorial Psalm, restoring the second reading, and even (if we could trust them to be orthodox) restoring the prayers of the faithful and the presentation of the gifts by the faithful. But the body of the Mass should have been left intact - only minor alterations needed to be made.
What do you mean by norm? Is it what the Church intended or promulgated? Hell no. The Church promulgated a Mass which was supposed to be said ad orientem (but with the indult to say it versus populum unfortunately extended to the general church, rather than remaining simply a local custom), in Latin (with an indult to have it translated), with Gregorian as the strict norm for liturgical music (with accomodations made for something equivalent to it, such as Renaissance polyphony), and with Communion received kneeling and on the tongue (with yet another indult for this norm to be broken in individual dioceses that ask for it).
Well, considering that the liturgical state of the Western Church is at an unthinkably deformed low when compared to any other period in history, pretty much any change is going to drag it back to some mythical pre-Vatican II Golden Age. It’s only up from here, I hope.
Actually, yes. In fact I have heard two homilies about St. Maxilillian Kolbe at traditional masses on/around his feast day. It is actually quite rare for a N.O. priest to give homilies about the heroic lives of the saints, but common at traditional masses.
If the changes that were intended had been made, not what A Bugnini and Co perpretrated, it would have been OK. And get rid of the following “reforms”, such as ripping out the Communion rails, surely about the cruellest act of the lot.
It`s starting, though.
Those dissenters were still there, though. And the upheaval caused them to reveal themselves in all their sordid “splendour”. You can`t keep a subversive movement suppressed forever. The likes of H Kung need something more drastic than good parenting…excommunication…
That`s one of the fruits of Vatican II. God is separating the geep from the shoats.
But Trent didn`t have to deal with a corrupt and decadent, spiritually bankrupt West.
It
s valid: dont be worried about that…but it certainly needs a lot of cleaning up. As you say, the body of the Mass should have been left intact. i dont think itd ever be safe to restore the prayers of the faithful: ditto with the gifts. Left wing agendas (as you inferred).It
s a case of give em an inch. Too many legal loopholes, but that`s not what VII asked for.Sounds like it`s worse over your way than it is over here. You have my empathy because it is bad in some places here.
The new crop of seminarians/priests is better than the old lot. They`re looking for the Truth. The Holy Spirit is with us…trust Him! Writing straight with (very) crooked lines!
t have to search for reverence: it was there; the Communion rails were there; the decent hymns were there......but i didnt appreciate it, and stayed away from the Sacraments from the end of 1966 (last year of primary school) until mid 1990. Slow drift towards more reverence, culminating in plunge into FSSP-celebrated Solemn High Mass 18 months ago. Been there ever since. Sublime! Had to look for it though, and appreciate it more because of the effort, and the contrast with the silly stuff (ie the abuses; not the NO itself). Plenty of others have gone down the same road.s not on a par with the TLM, but the NO properly celebrated is OK. Its still the Mass. The new translation will be a good start at cleaning up. In any case, the Grace we recieve from the Mass depends on our disposition.em have it. Itll die out…along with them.Ahhh, so you can only be a “faithful, devout Catholic” if you attend the Tidentine Mass? Nonsense. This arrogance is getting old very quickly.
I repeated this because I like what you said. Although, the only real reforms I would have made were the ones I mentioned - restoring the second reading and doing it (but not the Eucharist) versus populum.
Yup. So they should have all been excommunicated, rather than brought into the mainstream.
Unfortunately, the goats think they’re “devout Catholics” and that they’re in line with “post-Vatican II”, and they act as if they have the authority of the Church behind - which they didn’t before.
Certainly agreed about the pace of Mass; in the Eastern Church that’s not as much of a problem because the whole thing is chanted or sung. Perhaps if there were set prayers of the faithful (modeled after the Byzantine ektenias), the problem would be avoided, but I’m not exactly comfortable with either liturgical experimentation or muddling the two rites together.
Yeah, all the new seminarians wear cassocks and collars now. A lot are still hostile to the TLM, though - and the translation of the breviary they use is almost unrecognizable.
We can choose, but it’s still pretty expensive for a college kid like me to drive an hour and ten minutes every sunday just to go to a reverent liturgy.
The one time I had the opportunity to attend an ad orientem Novus Ordo Mass in Latin with Gregorian Chant (which was what VII intended), it was OK - but I really don’t understand the need to chuck the Last Gospel, Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, and the Eucharistic Liturgy. I’d choose the TLM instead any day.