The SSPX and True Catholicism

[st_bernard]

You are making misleading comments.
Lefebre and his supporters were not excommunicated for practising their faith but for disobedience to the Pope when they ordained several bishops against the explicit instructions of the Pope not to do so.

Gratia et pax vobiscum,

Doesn’t Eastern Orthodox do this ‘all the time’ and we hear ‘nothing’. Why?

Gratias

 

[gorman64]

You are making misleading comments.
Lefebre and his supporters were not excommunicated for practising their faith but for disobedience to the Pope when they ordained several bishops against the explicit instructions of the Pope not to do so.

And you are making some factual errors here. The supporters of ArBp. Lefebvre were excommunicated? For what?

And the reason they were “disobedient” was to keep the Faith.
Obedience is a moral virtue…the highest moral virtue. But even the highest moral virtue is subject the the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Charity is, of course, the greatest of the theological virtues.

From the CE, on obedience:

It is in other words the homage rendered to authority which ranks it as a distinct virtue. Among the virtues obedience holds an exalted place but not the highest. The distinction belongs to the virtues of faith, hope and charity (q.v.) which unite us immediately with Almighty God. Amongst the moral virtues obedience enjoys a primacy of honour. The reason is that the greater or lesser excellence of a moral virtue is determined by the greater or lesser value of the object which it qualifies one to put aside in order to give oneself to God. Now amongst our various possessions, whether goods of the body or goods of the soul, it is clear that the human will is the most intimately personal and most cherished of all. So it happens that obedience, which makes a man yield up the most dearly prized stronghold of the individual soul in order to do the good pleasure of his Creator, is accounted the greatest of the moral virtues. As to whom we are to obey, there can be no doubt that first we are bound to offer an unreserved service to Almighty God in all His commands. No real difficulty against this truth can be gathered from putting in juxtaposition the unchangeableness of the natural law and an order, such as that given to Abraham to slay his son Isaac. The conclusive answer is that the absolute sovereignty of God over life and death made it right in that particular instance to undertake the killing of an innocent human being at His direction. On the other hand the obligation to obedience to superiors under God admits of limitations. We are not bound to obey a superior in a matter which does not fall within the limits of his preceptive power. Thus for instance parents although entitled beyond question of the submission of their children until they become of age, have no right to command them to marry. Neither can a superior claim our obedience in contravention to the dispositions of higher authority. Hence, notably, we cannot heed the behests of any human power no matter how venerable or undisputed as against the ordinances of God. All authority to which we bow has its source in Him and cannot be validly used against Him. It is the recognition of the authority of God vicariously exercised through a human agent that confers upon the act of obedience its special merit. No hard and fast rule can be set down for determining the degree of guilt of the sin of disobedience. Regarded formally as a deliberate scorning of the authority itself, it would involve a divorce between the soul and the supernatural principle of charity which is tantamount to a grievous sin. As a matter of fact many other things have to be taken account of, as the greater or lesser advertence in the act, the relatively important or trifling character of the thing imposed, the manner of enjoining, the right of the person who commands. For such reasons the sin will frequently be esteemed venial.

 

[MariaG]

I think that if all the SSPX people came back to the Novus Ordo Churches all at the same time, they could REALLY do a lot of good. We really need you! Please help! Please come back because we need your brains and your faith!

God Bless!

I keep thinking how much more good these people of the faith could do inside the church, rather than outside!

I have to echo this. The biggest problem in many Churches is the lack of knowledge. People may do things wrong but only because no one knows it is wrong. In my experience, most today are happy to do things the “right way” once told. Most today in the Church know nothing BUT the NO Mass and the “spirit” of VII instead of what VII actually is.

Of course there are exceptions to this, maybe more than I am aware of. But that is why we need well educated and articulate people who can lay out a case for what is right.

And get more TLM going in the Church too, since the “demand” would clearly be up if all the SSPX came back to the Church:thumbsup:

 

[cmj05fl]

Actually I would like to see the SSPX come back to the fold but I would prefer them to assist the FSSP with keeping the TM as part of our heritage. The rumor I heard is they may become a personal prelature. Has anyone heard different?

 

[bear06]

And you are making some factual errors here. The supporters of ArBp. Lefebvre were excommunicated? For what?

And the reason they were “disobedient” was to keep the Faith.
Obedience is a moral virtue…the highest moral virtue. But even the highest moral virtue is subject the the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Charity is, of course, the greatest of the theological virtues.

From the CE, on obedience:

Actually, the excommunication decree said:

The priests and faithful are warned not to support the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre, otherwise they shall incur ipso facto the very grave penalty of excommunication.

It would be naive to think that nobody has supported the schism although we can’t go around saying “that person is excommunicated” in most cases.

If the Pope had explained the situation to Lefebvre (which he did) he couldn’t say that he was keeping the Faith because in disobeying the Holy Father he was, in deed, denying Pastor Aeternus. He can’t claim he was naive to the fact. Once the explanation came of his errors, he could no longer claim that he was not culpable because he felt there was a necessity. One has to realize that if anyone honestly thinks this or that, very few in the history of the Church would have been validly excommunicated which we know not to be true.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I keep thinking how much more good these people of the faith could do inside the church, rather than outside!

I agree. That’s why I’m throwing a huge party when the SSPX is reconciled with Rome. And you’re all invited.

 

[jcrc1312]

Well, I really have nothing to add to this discussion. Just thought I’d throw in that I belong to an SSPX parish. I attend Mass there exclusively, and have for about 7 years. I am 41 years old, cradle Catholic, and had never been to a TLM before. My children attend their schools. I believe that I am a true Catholic. Are those who attend NO Masses true Catholics? Well, I hope so. I try not to judge, because it is not up to me to do so. I DO know that I am in the right place for me and my family. I do not get caught up in all the mumbo jumbo.
JC

 

[paramedicgirl]

Well, I really have nothing to add to this discussion. Just thought I’d throw in that I belong to an SSPX parish. I attend Mass there exclusively, and have for about 7 years. I am 41 years old, cradle Catholic, and had never been to a TLM before. My children attend their schools. I believe that I am a true Catholic. Are those who attend NO Masses true Catholics? Well, I hope so. I try not to judge, because it is not up to me to do so. I DO know that I am in the right place for me and my family. I do not get caught up in all the mumbo jumbo.
JC

 

[st_bernard]

Well, I really have nothing to add to this discussion. Just thought I’d throw in that I belong to an SSPX parish. I attend Mass there exclusively, and have for about 7 years. I am 41 years old, cradle Catholic, and had never been to a TLM before. My children attend their schools. I believe that I am a true Catholic. Are those who attend NO Masses true Catholics? Well, I hope so. I try not to judge, because it is not up to me to do so. I DO know that I am in the right place for me and my family. I do not get caught up in all the mumbo jumbo.
JC

KEEP THE FAITH!

God Bless you!

Gratia et pax vobiscum

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Obedience is a moral virtue…the highest moral virtue. But even the highest moral virtue is subject the the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Charity is, of course, the greatest of the theological virtues.

You’ve made this point before, yet you’ve failed to provide a key piece of information required to justify the Abp.'s actions: In what way would obedience have conflicted with faith, hope, or charity?

The schismatic act, and thus the disobedience, consisted in ordaining bishops without papal mandate. Abp. Lefebvre did this with the promise of a future papal mandate freshly received from the Vatican. So to make your case you’re going to have to prove that faith, hope, and/or charity demanded from the Abp. that he ordain without delay (the obedient conditions were, afterall, forthcoming). A tall case.

 

[Sola_Roma]

Well, I really have nothing to add to this discussion. Just thought I’d throw in that I belong to an SSPX parish. I attend Mass there exclusively, and have for about 7 years. I am 41 years old, cradle Catholic, and had never been to a TLM before. My children attend their schools. I believe that I am a true Catholic. Are those who attend NO Masses true Catholics? Well, I hope so. I try not to judge, because it is not up to me to do so. I DO know that I am in the right place for me and my family. I do not get caught up in all the mumbo jumbo.
JC

How do you attend a SSPX parish without attending a TLM?

 

[TNT]

How do you attend a SSPX parish without attending a TLM?

Actually he said:
“and had never been to a TLM before” [the 7 yrs ago when he joined the SSPX parish]
Does that make better sense?
I picked up on it since that is my wife’s story also, except went from Charismatic Protestant to SSPX.

 

[Sola_Roma]

Actually he said:
“and had never been to a TLM before” [the 7 yrs ago when he joined the SSPX parish]
Does that make better sense?
I picked up on it since that is my wife’s story also, except went from Charismatic Protestant to SSPX.

Ah okay I got that a bit mixed up.
Read it too fast lol.

Thanks

 

[Resurrexit]

How do you attend a SSPX parish without attending a TLM?

You never know what happens at these liberal SSPX parishes…

 

[gorman64]

You’ve made this point before, yet you’ve failed to provide a key piece of information required to justify the Abp.'s actions: In what way would obedience have conflicted with faith, hope, or charity?

The schismatic act, and thus the disobedience, consisted in ordaining bishops without papal mandate. Abp. Lefebvre did this with the promise of a future papal mandate freshly received from the Vatican. So to make your case you’re going to have to prove that faith, hope, and/or charity demanded from the Abp. that he ordain without delay (the obedient conditions were, afterall, forthcoming). A tall case.

Do you think Abp. Lefebvre’s reason for going ahead with the consecrations was a deliberate scorning of authority…or did he have reason to believe that he was being lied to…stonewalling until his inevitable death…he was no young man at that time. What he did was reasonable given the history…and you are so rigid that you are willing say disobedience is worse than leaving your priests with no Bishop…can you imagine from your comfortable chair what the Arbp. was going through? You may rigidly say this does not matter…but I’ll bet a good orthodox moral theologian would disagree.

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

Do you think Abp. Lefebvre’s reason for going ahead with the consecrations was a deliberate scorning of authority…or did he have reason to believe that he was being lied to…stonewalling until his inevitable death…he was no young man at that time. What he did was reasonable given the history…and you are so rigid that you are willing say disobedience is worse than leaving your priests with no Bishop…can you imagine from your comfortable chair what the Arbp. was going through? You may rigidly say this does not matter…but I’ll bet a good orthodox moral theologian would disagree.

In this scenario, one must ascribe the worst intentions to the pope and the best intentions to the archbishop – and we don’t know either. Yes, I say disobedience is worse than the archbishop dying while his priests have no other bishop – had he no faith in Christ’s words that the gates of Hell would not prevail? Everything rode on his shoulders? I have no idea what went through the archbishop’s thoughts, but his actions are indicitive of a man who is self-important to a frightening extent.

 

[Sola_Roma]

In this scenario, one must ascribe the worst intentions to the pope and the best intentions to the archbishop – and we don’t know either. Yes, I say disobedience is worse than the archbishop dying while his priests have no other bishop – had he no faith in Christ’s words that the gates of Hell would not prevail? Everything rode on his shoulders? I have no idea what went through the archbishop’s thoughts, but his actions are indicitive of a man who is self-important to a frightening extent.

And who says that Archbishop Lefebrve isnt a tool Christ is using to do exactly that…prevent the gates of Hell from prevailing.

The NO Church is so…‘un-catholic’…if we didnt have the FSSP, ICRSS, SSPX, etc. I would feel like the Church has somehow gone apostate.

But since we do have these groups, I know the Church is still ‘surviving’. Thanks to God’s Divine promise, as well as people like Arch. Lefebrve.

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

And who says that Archbishop Lefebrve isnt a tool Christ is using to do exactly that…prevent the gates of Hell from prevailing.

The NO Church is so…‘un-catholic’…if we didnt have the FSSP, ICRSS, SSPX, etc. I would feel like the Church has somehow gone apostate.

But since we do have these groups, I know the Church is still ‘surviving’. Thanks to God’s Divine promise, as well as people like Arch. Lefebrve.

Even if the archbishop was a tool, he would not be the only hope. He should’ve had the humility to know that God will always find a way.

 

[pnewton]

The NO Church is so…‘un-catholic’.

I can not imagine any definition of “catholic” that would make this statement true. Universal? No, not if one is using the same Mass as most of the rest of the world. In communion with the Holy Father? No, again, since it is the Mass the Congregation for Divine Woship approves.

 

[Resurrexit]

I can not imagine any definition of “catholic” that would make this statement true. Universal? No, not if one is using the same Mass as most of the rest of the world. In communion with the Holy Father? No, again, since it is the Mass the Congregation for Divine Woship approves.

I’m not an SSPX person, or a sedevacantist, but has the church still got the 4 marks of one, holy, catholic and apostolic? In particular, is the church still Holy?

If it were not for the promise of Our Most Blessed Lord, I would have serious doubts.