The Star of Bethlehem?

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Note that it says…

I don’t think they were disturbed by seeing the star but because Herod remembered the prophecy of Balaam [Numbers 24:17-10]

That’s a good point. They weren’t necessarilly upset because of the prodigy, whatever it was. They were apparently upset because of the prodigy’s significance.

Note that Herod claimed to be King of Israel, but was in reality an Edomite. The prophecy fortells his downfall - and when he was upset; all Jerusalem was upset.

And, I suppose, when Herod gets upset, this is indeed something to be concerned about-- given his treacherous and murderous history against those who disagree with him. In addition to this, that’s an excellent point too-- this sign did indicate Herod’s eventual downfall.

So perhaps the key that unlocks this prophecy would be that it had to coincide with a point in history when an Edomite rules over parts of the nation of Israel-- therefore pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

But how would the Magi know this?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You’re assuming that planets exert a cause-and-effect relationship upon human life on earth. That’s not the basis of astrology.

Well then what exactly is being suggested in this book?

I’ve now read through the link you provided and am not exactly sure what’s being suggested. They still seem to be interpreting the positions of the planets in order to super-impose a meaning that corresponds to the rise and fall of political and philosophical thought processes throughout human history.

What’s the difference?

More to the point, how exactly would one relate to the other without reference to a cause and effect?

For example, some have noted the apparent connection between the Great Schism and the Supernova of 1054.

If there is some connection, what would it be and how would it be interpretted?

I’m not saying that there’s nothing to astrology. I think the modern day practice of astromony owes much to the astrologers of the past-- just as monern day chemists owe much to the alchemists of old.

Plus, since there does seem to be some truth to the position of the planets (or the appearance of a star for example) with something that God has fordained, what exactly would be the point of God communcating in such a vague way?

Roughly 30 years after the time of Christ’s death and resurrection, in AD 66, Haley’s comet passed-- shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Josephus seems to record this as an being omenous sign as follows, saying it “hung like a sword in the sky”.

Halley’s return in AD 451 was also thought to portend the defeat of Attila the Hun’s armies at Chalons by Flavius Aetius.

There’s actually quite a long history of interpreting the stars and cometary travels as having political significance.

Nonetheless, perhaps reminiscent of the Star of Bethlehem, Josephus did indeed say in Wars (IV.VIII.2-7) that a star resembling a sword stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. While some would say it looked like a sword, perhaps it could also be said In hindsight) that it looked like a cross as well.

Either way, this star that Josephus notes, as David Haggith comments, sounds strikingly similar to the one recorded in the Gospels that shone over Bethlehem roughly seventy years earlier when Jesus was born.

It almost appears that what began with Christ’s birth (with the appearance of the Star of Bethlehem roughly seventy years ago) was now finished with the appearance of a similar star roughly seventy years later (one that appeared like a sword hanging over the nation of Israel according to Josephus)-- therefore indicating both the begining and the end of the nation of Israel’s downfall.

The significance of seventy years should not be overlooked either, since some typologies in the Scriptures seem to use “seventy year” demarcations to designate a “generation” within Hebrew.

It’s not an exact science, but, for example, Jesus himself says in Matthew 24:34…

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

This seems to come back to Psalm 90:10…

The length of our days is seventy years—
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their span is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

So while there is no exact science for “predictions” as some have erroneously tried to do, I think there are fairly good reasons (based on an examination of history itself from the appearance of “one star” to “another star” at a roughly 70 year interval) that Jesus was implying a 70-80 year mark for a “generation” in Matthew 24:34.

 

[Ahimsa]

Perhaps it was some meteorological sign-- or some other oddity of nature which was beautiful to behold but otherwise common…such as this firey rainbow of reds, oranges, blues and greens that stretches above the clouds-- covering hundreds of square miles at that.

http://learnandtell.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/rainbow_on_fire.jpg

For example, Jesus said in Matthew 16:2-4…

I’m sure there were some extra-ordinary signs in the vicinity of Bethelehem, signs that complemented the astrological data. In Tibet, whenever a highly advanced Buddhist practitioner dies, oftentimes rainbows appear at the time of death.

 

[Ahimsa]

Well then what exactly is being suggested in this book?

I’ve now read through the link you provided and am not exactly sure what’s being suggested. They still seem to be interpreting the positions of the planets in order to super-impose a meaning that corresponds to the rise and fall of political and philosophical thought processes throughout human history.

What’s the difference?

More to the point, how exactly would one relate to the other without reference to a cause and effect?

The planets act as a clock, not as a cause.

As an example, let’s say you observe people at your office leave the building and go out to lunch. You notice that they seem to do this everyday around the time that clock strikes noon – maybe they leave a bit earlier one day, a bit later other days, and perhaps not at all on some days, but overall, noon seems to be the time.

Now, would you say that the clock striking noon causes the people to eat lunch? Of course not.

Instead, the clock striking noon is a sign that something concerning food is about to happen. Likewise, the stars are a sign that something is about to happen. Whether something does happen, largely depends upon the person’s free will. You can decide to not eat lunch, for instance. Or, if you are intent upon eating lunch, you can decide to eat a salad, instead of a cheesecake.

Thus, astrology, like the clock, is not absolutely necessary. You can just decide to eat lunch whenever your body calls for food, without looking at the clock (i.e., the planets).

However, I think astrology can be useful, because it demonstrates phenomena that is not explainable via current scientific models of reality, and thus is able to break the bondage created by an exclusive adherence to scientific materialism.

Plus, since there does seem to be some truth to the position of the planets (or the appearance of a star for example) with something that God has fordained, what exactly would be the point of God communcating in such a vague way?

To our ancestors, the planets weren’t so vague.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The planets act as a clock, not as a cause.

Ok, now that’s quite interesting.

I suppose this is kind of similar to Jung’s synchronicity-- something which I admire in part (but also recognize it as a potentially dangerous principle if taken to far).

As an example, let’s say you observe people at your office leave the building and go out to lunch. You notice that they seem to do this everyday around the time that clock strikes noon – maybe they leave a bit earlier one day, a bit later other days, and perhaps not at all on some days, but overall, noon seems to be the time.

Now, would you say that the clock striking noon causes the people to eat lunch? Of course not.

Instead, the clock striking noon is a sign that something concerning food is about to happen. Likewise, the stars are a sign that something is about to happen. Whether something does happen, largely depends upon the person’s free will. You can decide to not eat lunch, for instance. Or, if you are intent upon eating lunch, you can decide to eat a salad, instead of a cheesecake.

Thus, astrology, like the clock, is not absolutely necessary. You can just decide to eat lunch whenever your body calls for food, without looking at the clock (i.e., the planets).

Ok, that’s a good analogy.

However, I think astrology can be useful, because it demonstrates phenomena that is not explainable via current scientific models of reality, and thus is able to break the bondage created by an exclusive adherence to scientific materialism.

Assuming the planets act as a clock, how would one actually read the clock to “tell the time” though?

Furthurmore, why would the cosmos be so intimately “in synch” to strictly human behaviors?

To be fair, this seems to take some “intelligent design” arguments to their ultimate extremes-- since, apparently, if true, most things could simply be discerned with a consultation of the heavens.

I accept soft “intelligent design” arguments.

I am highly cautious and mostly skeptical of hard “inteligent design” arguments though,

To our ancestors, the planets weren’t so vague.

Apparently so-- there certainly was much less light polution back then for sure. In addition to this, since almost all ancient cultures seemed to pay close attention to them, they seemed to play some importance.

What do you think the ancient Hebrews thoughts were on this astrological practice though?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Lets just admit the “star” was the Direct TV Satellite and those pagan Magi were simply Americans moving their dish wherever the signal came in best so that they could stay tuned for the entire Lost series marathon.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Lets just admit the “star” was the Direct TV Satellite and those pagan Magi were simply Americans moving their dish wherever the signal came in best so that they could stay tuned for the entire Lost series marathon.

And, of course, we all know who the Three Wise Men were– more like three wise guys…

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/070108/star_l.jpg



Oddly enough, when I did a search in Google for “magi” + “star” that above image was in there. That is illogical…

 

[Ahimsa]

Assuming the planets act as a clock, how would one actually read the clock to “tell the time” though?

You would have to take a fairly scientific approach. If you want to experiment on yourself, you could first compare your astrological profile (AP; or birth chart) with those of your parents, siblings, and spouses. You may find interesting connections, especially if you know the times of births (within 5 minutes or so). Then you can determine significant events in your life, and note the AP of the time of those events (or event-AP), especially as the event-AP relates to your own AP. (From there, you can predict the stock-market – just kidding.) But once you’ve studied all this for several years, you might get pretty good at it, and you might note that certain events in your own life, or in the life of other people you know, or in the life of the global culture, tend to occur during certain astrological configurations. All this knowledge, though, can be a temptation, if the person is not grounded morally, ethically, and spiritually.

I believe the ancient Hebrews were criticizing astrology-gone-bad: astrologers who had the knowledge, but whose selfishness, greed, and lust had co-opted that knowledge. Thus, there does exist Jewish astrology, which stays away from mere predictions, and focuses on more spiritual themes. The astrology I practice is also spiritually based.

Furthermore, why would the cosmos be so intimately “in synch” to strictly human behaviors?

I don’t think that the cosmos is in synch with mere human behavior. What I do hypothesize, is that both matter (the planets, e.g.) and mind (human behavior, e.g.) – contra what modern science tends to tell us – are both connected at the “deep” level. This “deep” level goes through changes, and it’s those changes at the “deep” level that are reflected in both matter and mind, to one degree or another.

To go back to the analogy of the clock and people eating dinner: the clock strikes twelve because of the motion of atoms, and people get hunger because of the motion of atoms (as those atoms operate in the body). The motion of the atoms would be the “deep” level, and that motion is reflected in both the clock and the human behavior.

To be fair, this seems to take some “intelligent design” arguments to their ultimate extremes-- since, apparently, if true, most things could simply be discerned with a consultation of the heavens.

Not really. From my experience, the planetary movement is not an exact clock, like an atomic clock or something. The planets paint with fairly broad strokes. Besides, the planets are simply one among many “clocks” that exist in the cosmos. Other clocks provide different sorts of information, information that might not be all that obvious in the planets (but is there, if you look closely enough).

I have no problem with “astrology-as-intelligent design” being seen as a philosophical or religious theory, because current scientific models just can’t handle this idea of planetary clocks. Even if someone points to evidence that this clock exists, there is no physical law known to modern science that could possibly explain it, and thus, it would just not fit into the modern scientific mindset.

So, for instance, I would not want astrology (even if backed up by lots of evidence) to be taught in a science class-room, because astrology isn’t accepted by modern scientists. Astrology plays by a different set of rules, and until modern science adopts those rules, astrology shouldn’t be taught as “modern science”.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You would have to take a fairly scientific approach. If you want to experiment on yourself, you could first compare your astrological profile (AP; or birth chart) with those of your parents, siblings, and spouses. You may find interesting connections, especially if you know the times of births (within 5 minutes or so). Then you can determine significant events in your life, and note the AP of the time of those events (or event-AP), especially as the event-AP relates to your own AP. (From there, you can predict the stock-market – just kidding.) But once you’ve studied all this for several years, you might get pretty good at it, and you might note that certain events in your own life, or in the life of other people you know, or in the life of the global culture, tend to occur during certain astrological configurations.

But that could take years of study to discern patterns that I might just be imagining to be there.

Consequently, what scientfic tests could done to actually prove it false or not? How would I actually be able to discern whether the interpretation I’ve noted is correct or not?

All this knowledge, though, can be a temptation, if the person is not grounded morally, ethically, and spiritually.

Hmmm…so you’re saying that distinct knowledge can be gained?

I believe the ancient Hebrews were criticizing astrology-gone-bad: astrologers who had the knowledge, but whose selfishness, greed, and lust had co-opted that knowledge. Thus, there does exist Jewish astrology, which stays away from mere predictions, and focuses on more spiritual themes. The astrology I practice is also spiritually based.

I mean no disrepect, but the Hebrews who wrote (and upheld) the Scriptures definitely did not tolerate astrologers. Certainly there were Hebrews who practiced astrology no doubt. But the Hebrew Scriptures never speak in a “good way” about astrology as far as I can tell. They were considered being in the same class as those who practiced witchcraft and prognosticated via gazing into a liver of an animal for example.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t think that the cosmos is in synch with mere human behavior. What I do hypothesize, is that both matter (the planets, e.g.) and mind (human behavior, e.g.) – contra what modern science tends to tell us – are both connected at the “deep” level. This “deep” level goes through changes, and it’s those changes at the “deep” level that are reflected in both matter and mind, to one degree or another.

Could the deep level be some kind of “quantum consciousness” so to speak?

To go back to the analogy of the clock and people eating dinner: the clock strikes twelve because of the motion of atoms, and people get hunger because of the motion of atoms (as those atoms operate in the body). The motion of the atoms would be the “deep” level, and that motion is reflected in both the clock and the human behavior.

There are some things within science which does seem to match this kind of system.

Not really. From my experience, the planetary movement is not an exact clock, like an atomic clock or something. The planets paint with fairly broad strokes. Besides, the planets are simply one among many “clocks” that exist in the cosmos. Other clocks provide different sorts of information, information that might not be all that obvious in the planets (but is there, if you look closely enough).

So even the alternative clocks provided information as well.

Would this also take a fairly scientific approach too?

I have no problem with “astrology-as-intelligent design” being seen as a philosophical or religious theory, because current scientific models just can’t handle this idea of planetary clocks.

Then why did you say above that we would have to take a fairly scientific approach to read the clock to “tell the time”?

Even if someone points to evidence that this clock exists, there is no physical law known to modern science that could possibly explain it, and thus, it would just not fit into the modern scientific mindset.

Actually, there are a few phenomena that I am aware of which could eventually lean in this astrological direction: Mirror Particles and Entangled Particles.

Imagine a dime sliced down the middle, into a heads half and a tails half. One half goes to a person who then flies to the moon, and you keep the other half here on Earth. When you look at your half, and see that it is heads, there is no need for you to talk to your moon-bound friend to know she has tails.

Even more strange, two entangled items, which can include photons moving at the speed of light, have properties that are linked. Measuring the properties of one of these items will apparently cause the other to instantly switch from an indeterminate state to one with properties defined by its entanglement with the other. Since the entangled items can be far apart when this occurs, the transfer of properties appears to be taking place faster than the speed of light.

This is a kind of synchronicity I suppose.

Now apply Mirror Particles to the mix of Entangled Particles and you start to have a model for a Clockwork Universe with a built in cut off switch for when things go not according to plan– and can be detected as such.

So, for instance, I would not want astrology (even if backed up by lots of evidence) to be taught in a science class-room, because astrology isn’t accepted by modern scientists. Astrology plays by a different set of rules, and until modern science adopts those rules, astrology shouldn’t be taught as “modern science”.

This actually negates what you said earlier.

If this can be scientifically demonstrated as true, then why wouldn’t it be taught in the classroom?

This isn’t philosophical. This is knowledge.

And, if indeed people can gain this kind of knowledge simply by intently studying the positions of the planets, then what knowledge can be gained by studying all of God’s creation?
Romans 1:20:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Ahimsa]

But that could take years of study to discern patterns that I might just be imagining to be there.

Luckily, you’re not alone. Jung also did this experiment with his patients and he discovered astrological connections. There should be some reference on the Web about Jung’s experiments, not to mention other astrologer’s experiements about the connections between astrological profiles of parents and children, husband and wife, friend and friend, etc.

Consequently, what scientfic tests could done to actually prove it false or not? How would I actually be able to discern whether the interpretation I’ve noted is correct or not?

It’s not a matter of “proving” something, as in “proving” that 2 + 2 = 4. Darwin’s theory of evolution is not “proven” in that mathematical fashion; Darwin’s theory is accepted by modern scientists because it explains the data, while remaining within the rules of modern science (e.g., no super-natural forces need apply). In the case of astrology, we would not be restricted to remaining within the framework of modern physics or modern scientific laws.

Hmmm…so you’re saying that distinct knowledge can be gained?

Yes, indeed.

I mean no disrepect, but the Hebrews who wrote (and upheld) the Scriptures definitely did not tolerate astrologers. Certainly there were Hebrews who practiced astrology no doubt. But the Hebrew Scriptures never speak in a “good way” about astrology as far as I can tell. They were considered being in the same class as those who practiced witchcraft and prognosticated via gazing into a liver of an animal for example.

Not everything is in the Hebrew Bible. Even the Hebrews will tell you that! Since you’re Catholic, I’m astonished at your sola scriptura-ism. But, seriously, there is something in the Jewish tradition called “Oral Torah”.

 

[Ahimsa]

Could the deep level be some kind of “quantum consciousness” so to speak?

Possibly.

If this can be scientifically demonstrated as true, then why wouldn’t it be taught in the classroom?

I’m using “science” in the broad sense of “knowledge based on experimental verification”. I’m using “modern science” in the sense of “knowledge based on experimental verification without invoking forces that violate the known laws of physics”. In this sense, the type of astrology I’m talking about (in this case, specifically the noting of connections between the astrological profiles of family members, spouses, and friends) can be verified by simply comparing people’s charts. Now, you could chalk up any connections to “chance”, but I would posit that “chance” does not adequately explain the data.

I wouldn’t want astrology to be taught in a “modern science classroom” because “modern science” has been very successful in playing by the rules of scientific materialism.

Any type of knowledge that lies outside the bounds of “modern science” can be taught in some other class.

If the day comes when “modern science” opens itself up to astrological phenomena, then we can possibly do something. But until then, let the scientists play the game by the current rules.

And, if indeed people can gain this kind of knowledge simply by intently studying the positions of the planets, then what knowledge can be gained by studying all of God’s creation?

Ah, here’s the crux (no pun intended) of the matter. The fact is, you can’t gain good and solid astrological knowledge unless you are active in a spiritual, God-directed practice. In ancient cultures (the astrologers-gone-bad, notwithstanding), astrology is always directly embedded within a culture of sacredness. In India (whose astrological system I know best), astrology is seen as a gift of God (just like medicine, or writing), and thus, the best astrologers, are those of the greatest devotion to God. The astrological chart can not tell you what you should do. Only teachers, scripture, tradition, reason, and the inner voice of God within, can guide one’s spiritual life. What astrology does, though, is that it points to the fact that we are all connected, one with another, and us to the universe, and us to God – that there is a great, over-riding intelligence that forms the foundation of life. Studying astrology can thus help increase one’s faith – if one approaches it from a spiritual perspective, and not (as the ancient Hebrews rightly criticized) from a “witchcraft” or “mere divination” perspective. And once one’s faith is sufficiently strengthened, one might drop astrology, or one might continue to practice it as a way of helping others realize that they themselves are likewise part of a larger plan, a larger intelligent universe.

 

[didymus]

A bit off-topic, but has anyone ever read Arthur C Clarke’s short story The Star?

In the story the Star of Bethlehem turs out to have been a supernova – and there was an intelligent, humanoid race living on a planet orbiting it. This discovery is made by a Jesuit astronomer.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Not everything is in the Hebrew Bible. Even the Hebrews will tell you that! Since you’re Catholic, I’m astonished at your sola scriptura-ism. But, seriously, there is something in the Jewish tradition called “Oral Torah”.

I’m trying to respect your position on this. But don’t play that game Ahimsa.

I’m not into Sola Scriptura and I’m not preaching any form of Sola Scriptura when stating that the Scriptures repeatedly condemn the usage of astrology either– something which the Catholic Church teaches as well…

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

It’s one thing to suggest that the magi stumbled over an ‘ancient prophesy given by God’ that that Israelites themselves had “long forgotten”-- something which a careful reading of the Scriptural record suggests.

It’s entirely another thing to say that the magi actually used the ‘science of astrology’ to accurately “check the clock” and discern that the Messiah had finally arrived-- something which a careful reading of the Scriptural record does not suggest at all.

In fact, this whole point about the fact that we don’t know exactly what happened regarding the “Star of Bethlehem” (or exactly why the astrologers could discern this ‘sign’) is yet another reason not to accept Sola Scriptura.

In fact, every ‘theory’ regarding ‘the star’ uses the Scriptures as the starting point of it’s inquiry and quickly proceeds to exit the Scriptures to look as the archaeological and historical ‘evidence’ in order to verify and confirm their claim.

If Sola Scriptura were even remotely true, then we would not even need to wonder at all about any of the things that we are currently wondering about "Star of Bethlehem’ right now.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

A bit off-topic, but has anyone ever read Arthur C Clarke’s short story The Star?

In the story the Star of Bethlehem turs out to have been a supernova – and there was an intelligent, humanoid race living on a planet orbiting it. This discovery is made by a Jesuit astronomer.

Actually, it’s not that off-topic, since I had Lucifer Rising from Arthur C. Clark’s 2010 in mind.

A generation would soon be born that had never known a world without Lucifer.

Arthur C. Clarke penned these words in his science fiction novel, 2010: Odyssey Two–a book/movie sequel to his 1968 work, 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Unknown to those who only watched 2010, there was a major difference between the motion picture and the novel. Eerily, the book contained a section titled “Lucifer Rising.”

In Clarke’s Lucifer Rising story line, the hydrogen atmosphere on the planet Jupiter is ignited. The ensuing new “little” sun is dubbed “Lucifer” and illuminates the earth with its light.

The result: darkness no longer existed. Fear, suspicion, and crimes of the night disappear. Mankind has become illuminated through the light of Lucifer.

To occultists and New Agers, the symbology of Arthur C. Clarke’s writing was unmistakable. Lucifer, the “light bearer” shines his knowledge (occult “truth”) upon all humanity, chasing away fear and ignorance, and providing mankind with the opportunity to discover his own intellect.

Putting aside Clarke’s anti-Christian ideas for a moment and converting them as far as possible toward Christian thought, I’m wondering if Jupiter actually could have been briefly covered with aurora, thus appearing as a “born again” star shining more brilliantly in the heavens during the time of the magi’s sojourne to Bethlehem.

What Arthur C. Clarke called Lucifer I would call the Star of Bethlehem-- since Jesus is the true “bright and morning star” and the devil is not.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

A bit off-topic, but has anyone ever read Arthur C Clarke’s short story The Star?

In the story the Star of Bethlehem turs out to have been a supernova – and there was an intelligent, humanoid race living on a planet orbiting it. This discovery is made by a Jesuit astronomer.

Religion, and in particular religious faith, are central themes in ‘‘The Star.’’ The narrative is the interior monologue of the central character, a Jesuit astrophysicist. He is aboard a starship on a mission to investigate the causes of a supernova in a distant galaxy. He and the rest of the crew discover the artifacts of a highly developed civilization, carefully preserved on the only planet that remains in orbit around the supernova.

Knowing that all life would be wiped out when their sun flared into a supernova, this race of sentient beings left a record of who they were and what they accomplished. The pictures, sculptures, music, and other relics of a very human-like race doomed to destruction depress the crew and investigating scientists, who are far from their own homes and lonely.

What the narrator has learned but not yet communicated to the others is that the supernova that destroyed this civilization was the Star of Bethlehem, which burned brightly in the sky to herald the birth of Jesus Christ. His discovery has caused him to reexamine and to question his own faith.

Actually, the premise of ‘The Star’ is very similar to what I was suggesting in post # 4– so I’m way ahead of you here. .

However, instead of a Jesuit astrophysicist and his company of astronauts in a space ship discovering a distant world destroyed by a supernova, I’m suggesting Noah and his family in the Ark during the Great Deluge-- a time where the Earth may have been ravaged by a superflare which destroyed a planetary ring system around the Earth in our own distant past.
Genesis 7:11-13:

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

From another thread…

tabcom:

Not to put words in PC Master’s mouth, I’m sure he is fit to speak for himself, its not just the Saturnalia, but the Mythology of Horus, Attus, Mithra, Krishna, or Dionysus. All of which were said to be born on December 25th. All of which have one thing in common, the zodiac.

jmcrae:

Which explains how the Wise Men (who were “magi,” or astrologers) knew that He had been born!!

Thank you!!

Exactly how pervasive is the December 25th date in ancient religions?

Does this date really apply to Horus, Attus, Mithra, Krishna, and Dionysus as well?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Maybe this has been recommended already, but if not, I am recommeding it: a video titled The Star of Bethlehem (from producer Stephen McEveety - The Passion of the Christ.)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Tis’ the season…

I never noticed the part about “all Jerusalem” being disturbed by this.

So what do you think this event was?

I’ve have some thoughts and have done some research on it but I have to confess this is simply a mystery that eludes me.

The Hebrew Scriptures seem to perhaps point toward this event here…

And, looking for any possible historical references, the Protevangelium of James says this…

The PoJ is of no historical value​

Was this merely a miraculous event or an actual physical event interpretted to have a miraculous significance?

Fundamentally, there is no distinction - a mere miracle is of no importance or interest or value whatever. A miracle - or rather, a sign - is an everyday event with extra-ordinary significance; that something is unusual or astounding is in itself of no importance. God became one of us in the most ordinary of circumstances. ​

The star in Matthew 2 is present in the Gospel to show that Christians understood the passage in Numbers 24 as having been fulfilled in Jesus. The passage in which the star occurs is a theological composition in the form of a story which is intended to convey some of the truth about Who this Child is. It is not a description of the historical details of the Birth of Jesus - stars, after all, do not do what the text says.

 

[CarrierOfChrist]

Maybe this has been recommended already, but if not, I am recommeding it: a video titled The Star of Bethlehem (from producer Stephen McEveety - The Passion of the Christ.)

DITTO!! Excellent video!