The subtle lie: Women must be powerful but not fruitful

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Having children is not a profession.
It is the result of the coming together of two people who love each other.
Raising a child should take two parents, the father and the mother.
 
No. I have not even referred to homemakers. I have referred to all women. When I mean all women, I mean all women.

There’s the mentality out there, especially among more conservative circles, that women are supposed be perpetually under the authority of a man, be it husband if married and father if single. They want to take away women’s right to vote and remove women from the public sphere. Women are not supposed to have jobs, especially married women. No exceptions whatsoever.

If you think this view is rare, consider yourself lucky. I have met these people and I wasn’t even trying to meet them. Yes, some of them are Catholics.
 
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Exactly Sarcelle, (in reference to “cottage industry”) the point is before industrialization something like 85% plus of the population worked in agriculture to keep themselves and their communities fed. Cities were small, traveling was tedious and difficult and people’s lives were very localized. Trade and bartering was as important as the money economy. Extended families and neighbors helped each other with childcare and daily life.

What we are describing when we talk of a very strong demarcation between domestic and working life is a relatively recent historic possibility (and only for those who could live on one income). So we are holding men and women to something that has only been happening for 10 generations or something. That “something” is the value of work at home being unpaid and feminized and separate from paid work outside the home. 1950s America was a rare historical moment when one middle class income could support a SAHM and 4 kids and could afford a house and car. All the USA’s economic rivals: Britain, France, Germany, Japan were recovering from the devastation of war. So context and history are important, even for the roles of men and women.
 
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I have lived in developing countries which were more agrarian than industrialized.

Both men and women did what they could to support their families. From planting and harvesting rice and vegetables, care of domestic animals, to taking in small paid jobs. Sometimes the wife stays home to take care of small children but this arrangement was not set in stone. She could go back out and take in sewing or selling home cooked food for income while her children are cared for by extended family.

Sometimes whole families ran small businesses like small stores where everyone helped even children. That was the case for my extended family.
 
Or for that matter, is marriage and motherhood required for all women?
 
In some Orthodox Jewish communities the highest calling for a man is that he study the Torah and Talmud 12+ hours a day in a Yeshiva. Women are given a more secular education because in their community they are expected to raise the children AND financially support the family. So women are working outside their homes in paid work (the men in Yeshiva receive a modest stipend) and yet still living in a very traditional religious community. Many women WANT their men to study and not take a job as that is what carries the most status in the community. Orthodox women in these communities are therefore much more likely to have degrees and professional qualifications. It is also very common to see the fathers pushing strollers and taking kids to school.
 
Our culture also has this weird thing where parents and children have to be separated from each other constantly. It’s not “weird” if you choose it - plenty of kids are happy in preschool and school, or spending the day with grandparents while Mom and Dad work.

But I’m also thinking of countries in which there’s a family restaurant, and children as young as 6 or 7 might pour coffee or even take an order. I also see images of Southeast Asian women harvesting rice with infants worn on their backs for instant nursing access. Moms are definitely working, but when not in school, children are simply integrated into that world rather than their parents shelling out for sports and “after school programs.”

I realize that this arrangement isn’t feasible in a lot of professional settings, but it’s neat to observe when it can be done.
 
blackforest said:
Moms are definitely working, but when not in school, children are simply integrated into that world rather than their parents shelling out for sports and “after school programs.”
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Don’t judge me just because my retirement plan is “get Junior to the MLB.”
 
Elf01 said:
I would strongly recommend at least part time work for everyone. Circumstances change and having an extra source of income to fall back on is something I consider prudent.
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As someone whose father nearly died about three times when I was growing up and was hospitalized for extended periods, I wholeheartedly agree that both halves of a couple should be able to bring money into the house if it becomes necessary, even if they choose to have one stay home with the kids normally.
 
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, I find the age segregation to be off putting.

I grew up in a large extended family and we children learned manners by eating with and interacting with our elders who are not just our parents.

Also suburbs are socially isolating, especially in a car dependent US.
 
I have seen historical photos where a room full of women are taking a break at the factory to breastfeed their babies who have all been brought to the factory. It makes you wonder where the babies were in between feeds!
 
Sarcelle said:
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, I find the age segregation to be off putting.

I grew up in a large extended family and we children learned manners by eating with and interacting with our elders who are not just our parents.

Also suburbs are socially isolating, especially in a car dependent US.
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Sen Ben Sasse of Nebraska actually talked about this topic a good bit in his book “The Vanishing American Adult.”
 
I grew up in a family run grocery store.

My grandfather would also sometimes work as a caterer and my cousins and I would be his sous chefs. We were kids at the time. I learned to cook from him.
 
Many western cultures had the same ways of looking after their babies and children as developing nations.

Tom Jones the Welsh singer says he remembers as a baby and toddler being held by a shawl on his mother’s back and listening to her singing while she was working.
 
Sarcelle said:
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, I find the age segregation to be off putting.
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I’m getting off-topic here, but the other aspect of age segregation that bothers me is the expectation that all of our elderly go to live in geriatric institutions or geriatric ghettos. Children don’t interact enough with the elderly, and for more reasons than I can elaborate on here, I think that can do great damage to a society.
 
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blackforest said:
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Sarcelle:
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, I find the age segregation to be off putting.
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I’m getting off-topic here, but the other aspect of age segregation that bothers me is the expectation that all of our elderly go to live in geriatric institutions or geriatric ghettos. Children don’t interact enough with the elderly, and for more reasons than I can elaborate on here, I think that can do great damage to a society.
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YES

Sasse also talks about that. I highly recommend that book.
 
What do you think of retirement communities where you have to be above 55 in order to live there long term?

There seems to be more and more of them.
 
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