The Suffering of Animals Aspect of Vegetarianism

[camerong]

So, I’ve been a vegetarian for 7 years or so. I’m considering becoming a meat-eater again. The last problem I’m facing is the ethical dilemma of suffering:

The suffering of animals is something we should strive to avoid. Using animals for meat causes them causes them to suffer more than necessary, and this cannot be avoided. Even if we treat animals as well as possible, they still have to be killed and slaughtered, and last I checked, no animal producers put their cows to sleep (like a vet would a dog) before slaughtering it.

The alternative–not eating meat–seems better because the animals are not caused to suffer. And while this may mean the animals are never born, isn’t it better to never breed an animal than to breed the animal and then cause it to suffer?

Thoughts?

 

[nickybr38]

I was raised on a farm. I don’t know about the average meat you’ll pick up at the grocery store but the animals we butchered did NOT suffer. Their deaths were quick and over before they could process what was happening.

I don’t know if that helps you but the same was true for the chickens/turkeys/other animals we butchered. We got quite adept at killing them before they could realize what was happening because a scared/suffering animal produces bad meat.

The animals on our farm and any farm I’ve visited had the same situation: comfortable lives, quick deaths. I’m not sure why you think they suffer greatly but they really, truly don’t (unless the one butchering them is inept).

This isn’t a spiritual answer and I apologize for that but I thought it might help you to hear a more practical answer.

 

[OraLabora]

All living creatures suffer.

Is it better for a cow to be killed, essentially instantly, to be butchered for human consumption, or for a deer to be attacked by coyotes and slowly torn to shreds to feed the coyotes?

What makes you think that stopping meat consumption will stop animal suffering?

If the cows are simply left to nature, nature will take care of the cow in her own way in due time, and not necessarily as quickly and cleanly as humans.

 

[JRKH]

So, I’ve been a vegetarian for 7 years or so. I’m considering becoming a meat-eater again. The last problem I’m facing is the ethical dilemma of suffering:

The suffering of animals is something we should strive to avoid. Using animals for meat causes them causes them to suffer more than necessary, and this cannot be avoided. Even if we treat animals as well as possible, they still have to be killed and slaughtered, and last I checked, no animal producers put their cows to sleep (like a vet would a dog) before slaughtering it.

The alternative–not eating meat–seems better because the animals are not caused to suffer. And while this may mean the animals are never born, isn’t it better to never breed an animal than to breed the animal and then cause it to suffer?

Thoughts?

Regardless of what is eaten, it must either be eaten alive, or killed first. Plants are living things just as animals are. Why is the killing and eating of wheat, corn, greenbeans, peas, etc. different than killing and eating a cow, fish, rabbit, pig, or other animal.
Is it just because the plant cannot “express” suffering?

Nicky has stated the matter quite well. I too was raised around animals, both largte and small. I have personally raised and butchered rabbits and chickens and also hunted Rabbit and Squirrel.
Everything on the farm or at the processing plant is done to minimize the suffering of the animal both for the sake of the animal itself and also for the safety of those doing the butchering. The last thing you want is to have an animal, injured and in pain, thrashing around possibly injuring or killing family and friends.

Peace
James

 

[Rence]

So, I’ve been a vegetarian for 7 years or so. I’m considering becoming a meat-eater again. The last problem I’m facing is the ethical dilemma of suffering:

The suffering of animals is something we should strive to avoid. Using animals for meat causes them causes them to suffer more than necessary, and this cannot be avoided. Even if we treat animals as well as possible, they still have to be killed and slaughtered, and last I checked, no animal producers put their cows to sleep (like a vet would a dog) before slaughtering it.

The alternative–not eating meat–seems better because the animals are not caused to suffer. And while this may mean the animals are never born, isn’t it better to never breed an animal than to breed the animal and then cause it to suffer?

Thoughts?

I agree that animals that are used for food in the food industry are treated very inhumanely. I try to buy off the farm when I can. I know for a fact that the steer in our freezer was treated VERY well because he was raised next door, until the moment he was dispatched quickly and painlessly. He tasted better too The little bull we put in our freezer this past winter was the Prince of the Farm from day one till the day he was dispatched, and well spoiled until that day came.

Chickens are a little more work and bother, but you can do your own chickens rather than buy them in the store. Or patronize your local farmer. But there is certainly a difference in my mind between a chicken with free access to 5 acres and allowed to pasture, fed grain, and have access to clean water, as opposed to his crammed-in-closed-spaces counterparts in the chicken processing factories. Those animals have it bad. But I seriously don’t feel sorry for the chicken dispatched off my farm. I know they’re well treated.

You can eat meat without worrying about the suffering of animals, you just have to work at it. There’s nothing wrong with treating animals with dignity and respect (and even spoiling them a little) even though they are destined for the freezer.

I do believe that if people started patronizing their farmers instead of buying their meat in stores, it would change things. But that would be a big movement and people aren’t willing to do that. You can’t change the world, you can only make a difference in your part of it.So if it bothers you to eat meat from the store, get it from elsewhere.

 

[redhen]

Another thread on the moral treatment of non-human animals, so I submit another 10 min video from the Rev. Professor Andrew Linzey, PhD, DD (Oxford).

oxfordanimalethics.com/what-we-do/media/film-profile-of-director

 

[puzzleannie]

The suffering of animals is something we should strive to avoid. Using animals for meat causes them causes them to suffer more than necessary, and this cannot be avoided. Even if we treat animals as well as possible, they still have to be killed and slaughtered, and last I checked, no animal producers put their cows to sleep (like a vet would a dog) before slaughtering it.?

no because injecting any chemical agent to do so would contaminate the meat, but if the animal is slaughtered properly, humanely and quickly, in the kosher method for instance it does not suffer, nor are the harmful hormonal and chemical changes due to its suffering raised and present in the meat. If it is raised on grass, moreover, it is not only healthier and closer to the product the human body is designed to eat, but vast acres are not devoted to raising grain to fatten it artificially, which is the stage at which the inhumane factory farming system takes over.

Yes one answer many have found to the ethical dilemma is to switch to a vegetarian diet, usually founded on cereal grains and pulses (legumes). In order to switch this country, for instance, to production of these products in large amounts, the slaughter of animals and near or complete extinction of whole species of ruminants, wolves and larger animals, and routine destruction of smaller animals in the cultivation process, has been underway for nearly 175 years. What about cruelty to animals in sustaining a largely grain and soybean based agricultural system?

 

[camerong]

Yes one answer many have found to the ethical dilemma is to switch to a vegetarian diet, usually founded on cereal grains and pulses (legumes). In order to switch this country, for instance, to production of these products in large amounts, the slaughter of animals and near or complete extinction of whole species of ruminants, wolves and larger animals, and routine destruction of smaller animals in the cultivation process, has been underway for nearly 175 years. What about cruelty to animals in sustaining a largely grain and soybean based agricultural system?

Haha, this is interesting because I was just listening to the author of The Vegetarian Myth say exactly the same thing (although as a self-professed radical feminist and open lesbian, I imagine her other politics differ significantly!).

Is the production of livestock better, however? I can see that Bison grazing on plains would be better, but what about cows, chickens, pigs? Is there an actually sustainable solution for producing their meat?

 

[camerong]

All living creatures suffer.

Is it better for a cow to be killed, essentially instantly, to be butchered for human consumption, or for a deer to be attacked by coyotes and slowly torn to shreds to feed the coyotes?

What makes you think that stopping meat consumption will stop animal suffering?

If the cows are simply left to nature, nature will take care of the cow in her own way in due time, and not necessarily as quickly and cleanly as humans.

True, but cows need never be born, so they never would have suffered. I think we can safely say that it is better that an animal not be born than it be born and suffer greatly.

 

[camerong]

Another manifestation of this issue is, as the video posted above discusses, that those with pets discover that their pets are more than mere clumps of organic material, but have wants, emotions, and at the very least, a desire to continue to exist. This exists equally, though perhaps to lesser extents, in animals we use as food, no? How is a cow any different than my dog? Is the only difference that I have come to love my dog, and not the cow?

 

[mchale]

True, but cows need never be born, so they never would have suffered. I think we can safely say that it is better that an animal not be born than it be born and suffer greatly.

So should humans stop having children? The same argument can apply to people, perhaps more so since as moral agents, our capacity to suffer might be greater.

–
Bill

 

[mchale]

So, I’ve been a vegetarian for 7 years or so. I’m considering becoming a meat-eater again. The last problem I’m facing is the ethical dilemma of suffering:

The suffering of animals is something we should strive to avoid. Using animals for meat causes them causes them to suffer more than necessary, and this cannot be avoided. Even if we treat animals as well as possible, they still have to be killed and slaughtered, and last I checked, no animal producers put their cows to sleep (like a vet would a dog) before slaughtering it.

The alternative–not eating meat–seems better because the animals are not caused to suffer. And while this may mean the animals are never born, isn’t it better to never breed an animal than to breed the animal and then cause it to suffer?

Thoughts?

I think we need to be careful not to confuse Catholic Morality with contemporary ethics.

Lets remember, the Bible teaches us that God made the animals, and he gave man dominion over the animals so that Man could use them for food. Further, God in the Old Testament indicated which animals were good for the Israelites to eat and which were not… and in the New Testament, he opened up essentially all animals to serve as our food, and in particular enjoined that no man should make unclean what he had made clean.

Therefore, I think it is pretty clear that responsible consumption of meat is compatible with Catholic Morality. To try to argue otherwise might, from a Catholic Perspective be immoral (since we would be trying to make unclean what God had made clean).

Now, a Catholic would say that the animal should be killed in as quick and painless a method as is practical, but to try to eliminate all suffering is simply ignoring the reality of the world.

Now there are good reasons to cut down on the amount of meat one eats, or even eliminate it. Health, fasting, damage to the environment, etc. But those do not try to argue that eating meat itself is wrong or evil (Just over consumption).

–
Bill

 

[camerong]

So should humans stop having children? The same argument can apply to people, perhaps more so since as moral agents, our capacity to suffer might be greater.

–
Bill

Well, let me demonstrate my point. Imagine I breed my dog, just so I can stick all of the puppies in little cages, which I keep in the dark, and only visit to come and kick the cages every day or two. They exist like this for their whole lives. Surely we can say it was immoral for me to chose life over no life for these animals? So, we can see that in some circumstances, no life is better than a very bad life. The question remains exactly how bad a life animals on farms have, etc., but at least we have defined certain boundaries to this issue.

 

[mchale]

Well, let me demonstrate my point. Imagine I breed my dog, just so I can stick all of the puppies in little cages, which I keep in the dark, and only visit to come and kick the cages every day or two. They exist like this for their whole lives. Surely we can say it was immoral for me to chose life over no life for these animals? So, we can see that in some circumstances, no life is better than a very bad life. The question remains exactly how bad a life animals on farms have, etc., but at least we have defined certain boundaries to this issue.

Well, I would not agree that no life is better than a very bad life (that argument is a very slippery slope and has often been used to justify euthanasia and abortion along with other evils). Secondly your example is flawed because in the case of the puppies you appear to be acting for little reason other than sadism. In contrast, farm animals, even mistreated animals, do serve a purpose.

Now, I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t work to improve the conditions of the animals on farms. I am just stating that the mere fact that an animal suffers when slaughtered and at other points in its life is not a reason sustainable in Catholic Morality to abstain from eating meat.

Remember, I am responding to your original post. If you want to go Vegetarian to protest how animals are treated on factory farms, more power to you. But if you want to argue that killing animals for food is intrinsically evil, then I will very much disagree with you.

–
Bill

 

[Rence]

Another manifestation of this issue is, as the video posted above discusses, that those with pets discover that their pets are more than mere clumps of organic material, but have wants, emotions, and at the very least, a desire to continue to exist. This exists equally, though perhaps to lesser extents, in animals we use as food, no? How is a cow any different than my dog? Is the only difference that I have come to love my dog, and not the cow?

Apparently no diffferent, ask my heifer, who thinks she is a dog I have dog nose-prints on the inside of the kitchen door and heifer-nose prints on the outside.

People who live in the city are far-removed from the farm. They may very well have no clue how sweet a cow can be. I’ve gotten many cow-kisses and cow-hugs. And watching the interaction between a cow and her calf is sappy sweet. They’ve got quite a personality too, each one different. They know darn well when they’re naughty. And they will test you too.

Goats are just like dogs, smart like them too. And creative in ways of getting out of most types of fencing. They truly enjoy perching on top of car rooftops and couldn’t care less that you’re upset about it

As for chickens: I have a rooster that knocks on the kitchen patio door (or crows and fusses when not answered), walks past all the dogs, eats their dogfood, and knocks to get out again.

Animals are pretty cool actually. They certainly deserve a lot better than they get in big food-producing factories. I hate seeing cows and chickens crammed flank to flank (or wing to wing) into small areas, wallowing in their own filth, sick from the conditions, and mistreated “for fun” in some cases. I hate it.

 

[buffalo]

**2415 **The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.194 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.195
**2416 ***Animals *are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
**2417 **God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.197 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
**2418 **It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

 

[camerong]

Apparently no diffferent, ask my heifer, who thinks she is a dog I have dog nose-prints on the inside of the kitchen door and heifer-nose prints on the outside.

People who live in the city are far-removed from the farm. They may very well have no clue how sweet a cow can be. I’ve gotten many cow-kisses and cow-hugs. And watching the interaction between a cow and her calf is sappy sweet. They’ve got quite a personality too, each one different. They know darn well when they’re naughty. And they will test you too.

Goats are just like dogs, smart like them too. And creative in ways of getting out of most types of fencing. They truly enjoy perching on top of car rooftops and couldn’t care less that you’re upset about it

As for chickens: I have a rooster that knocks on the kitchen patio door (or crows and fusses when not answered), walks past all the dogs, eats their dogfood, and knocks to get out again.

Animals are pretty cool actually. They certainly deserve a lot better than they get in big food-producing factories. I hate seeing cows and chickens crammed flank to flank (or wing to wing) into small areas, wallowing in their own filth, sick from the conditions, and mistreated “for fun” in some cases. I hate it.

So how do you still eat animals, even if they’re treated humanely up until their relatively-painless death? Does that not cause you any problems? Maybe its an artificial sentiment to be upset with the death of a beloved animal, like one being upset throwing away a favorite teddy bear?

 

[camerong]

**2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.197 ** Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing.

So does this mean that, for a faithful Catholic, vegetarianism is wrong? I’m not sure it does. I have, for a long time, never said it was illegitimate to eat meat, but merely that it is better to not eat meat than to eat it. Does the passage you quoted provide something like a minimum standard, or is it a comprehensive statement?

 

[buffalo]

So does this mean that, for a faithful Catholic, vegetarianism is wrong? I’m not sure it does. I have, for a long time, never said it was illegitimate to eat meat, but merely that it is better to not eat meat than to eat it. Does the passage you quoted provide something like a minimum standard, or is it a comprehensive statement?

I do not think it is wrong to be vegan. I think it is wrong headed to be a vegan for politically correct animal welfare purposes, though.

 

[Rence]

So how do you still eat animals, even if they’re treated humanely up until their relatively-painless death? Does that not cause you any problems? Maybe its an artificial sentiment to be upset with the death of a beloved animal, like one being upset throwing away a favorite teddy bear?

No, it’s not an artificial sentiment. Not at all. My “pets” are my pets, but animals that I know are going to be food are not let all the way in my heart (if that makes sense). I kind of keep them at arm’s length, but that doesn’t mean I don’t treat them well. That means, I don’t name them “baby”, “honey”, “sweetheart”, etc. That means when it comes time to send them to the butcher, I can be at peace with myself that they didn’t grow up and live in jam-packed filthy conditions in misery. I saw a few documentaries on meat factories and felt not an ounce of regret at having “the bull calf” processed because he was treated well until the end. I actually visited an egg factory and I could smell it way before I found it on the road. It was gross.

I know this sounds stupid, but bear with me. Despite the criticism I’m sure to receive I’ll go ahead and share a bit of myself with you. My dogs are like my family. We can argue until we both turn blue and keel over, but they are. My milk cow, and my milk goats, are all “pets”, but they’re different than the dogs. I could never eat my milk cow, or my milk goats. But if I know an animal is going to be food, they don’t get all the way in me.

My bull calf had a big paddock. He was raised on his mother until he started chewing on her…then he was moved to a paddock across from her. He was still bottle fed. He had lots of grass and hay. He had clean water. He liked being talk to, and he loved the pats on the head and the scratches. But I never let him in like I let his mother (who is dear to me). It was kinda sad when he followed me into the trailer and got taken away, but it was time and I knew the time was coming. It’s just different. You look at them differently.

I was born and raised in a big city, so I know where you’re coming from. But somewhere along the way, I changed. My perspective changed because I’m well aware of hiding behind those cellophane packages in the store, far removed from the mistreatment and torture. If people don’t see it, they don’t care. And I’ve been told point-blank “I don’t care, I don’t want to know” by peoeple. So, I feel much worse caving in and buying chicken on sale at the store, and I feel more selfish for taking the easy way out by buying chicken pieces at the store, but I never feel bad about raising an animal on the farm for food because I know I did right by them. But real life sometimes gets in the way of our best intentions and we can’t always do what we wish. But I never feel bad about buying a steer from the farmer next door, I rather feel grateful that I had the opportunity to do so.

Does that make sense?