The sufficiency of Christ

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fhansen said:
Even before the Reformation, of course, this battle was being fought with Pelagianism and the Church has never been able to escape the fact that, while Gods’ will is sovereign, our wills have a part to play in our salvation-as Adam & Eves wills had a part to play in their expulsion from the garden/slash separation from God. Man’s will was never so corrupted that he’s not a player. While faith is a gift, it’s not one that cannot be rejected so even there a choice is involved.
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I agree that Adam and Eve had free will to obey God. Our differences appear to be our understanding of what was lost after the fall of mankind. How does God change our rebellious will againt Him… to make our will to want to live a life to please Him? The answer is tied with the person and work of Jesus Christ and the need to be born from above. Do you see the work of Christ to be a rescue mission from the penalty of sin and the bondage of sin? Maybe in addition to speaking about the sufficiency of Christ, we are all discussing about the sufficiency of His grace. I think James White’s statement is true:

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White
 
We know from scriptures that God desires for all men to come to Him. We also know that it is not God’s will for man to perish. We also know that some will come to Him and others will perish.

How do we reconcile this if man has no ability to make a choice? If the decision is entirely God’s, no one would perish because we know that is not God’s will. Since some do perish, it is clear that man has some responsibility in the salvation relationship.

The reason that uncnditional election does not sit well with me is:
  1. Man is born depraved. From the very moment conception he is depraved and apart from God.
  2. If man does not accept Christ as saviour he is condemned to hell.
  3. God choose who will accept Christ. Man has no choice in the matter.
It seems to me that man is being held to a standard, accept Christ, that he cannot atain unless God allows it, which he does for some but not for others. In other words, follow the rules or else, but I am not going to allow you to follow the rules and I am going to punish you anyways.

I once had a pastor tell me that when babies die they go to hell, unless of course they are one of the elect. This is a resonable conclusion given the teaching on election that the Calvinist holds.
 
2nd_Adam said:
I agree that Adam and Eve had free will to obey God. Our differences appear to be our understanding of what was lost after the fall of mankind. How does God change our rebellious will againt Him… to make our will to want to live a life to please Him? The answer is tied with the person and work of Jesus Christ and the need to be born from above. Do you see the work of Christ to be a rescue mission from the penalty of sin and the bondage of sin? Maybe in addition to speaking about the sufficiency of Christ, we are all discussing about the sufficiency of His grace. I think James White’s statement is true:

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White
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Yes, Gods grace does not override His will that we freely choose to turn back to Him. In fact, God doesn’t get what He’s after unless man freely chooses Him. It’s freely making the right choice, working in cooperation with grace, that constitutes the justified man. Man can’t do it apart from God-God won’t do it apart from man.
 
fhansen said:
Yes, Gods grace does not override His will that we freely choose to turn back to Him. In fact, God doesn’t get what He’s after unless man freely chooses Him. It’s freely making the right choice, working in cooperation with grace, that constitutes the justified man. Man can’t do it apart from God-God won’t do it apart from man.
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Is God’s will always accomplished? My answer is yes. I do not believe that man is sovereign in salvation. I believe God is completely sovereign in salvation. Therefore, the doctrine of predestination, election, chosen, set apart saints, needs to be received to understand the sovereignity of God in salvation and everything else. This is why I can embrace Catholics as my Christian siblings. It is written from a Protestant persepective.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
  • 1 Cor 1
 
fhansen said:
Yes, Gods grace does not override His will that we freely choose to turn back to Him. In fact, God doesn’t get what He’s after unless man freely chooses Him. It’s freely making the right choice, working in cooperation with grace, that constitutes the justified man. Man can’t do it apart from God-God won’t do it apart from man.
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:clapping::dancing::clapping:

:amen:
 
2nd_Adam said:
I agree that Adam and Eve had free will to obey God. Our differences appear to be our understanding of what was lost after the fall of mankind. How does God change our rebellious will againt Him… to make our will to want to live a life to please Him? The answer is tied with the person and work of Jesus Christ and the need to be born from above. Do you see the work of Christ to be a rescue mission from the penalty of sin and the bondage of sin? Maybe in addition to speaking about the sufficiency of Christ, we are all discussing about the sufficiency of His grace. I think James White’s statement is true:

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White
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See question in post 220 which is still unanswered.
 
tweetymom said:
Thjank you Adam and am reading fast as I can.:clapping:
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You are too kind sister in Christ! I will break until this evening - Pacific time. Christ is sufficient for you for those who believe. Therefore, let’s rejoice in the perfect work of Christ on our behalf, prasing God in what He has done for us sinners. We are adopted children of the most high, crying Abba Father. God is our eternal Heavenly Father whom we gain eternal adoption based on the perfect work of our elder brother.

:signofcross::knight1::harp::hug1:

Catholic and Protetstant Christians worshiping God together for what He has done for us in Christ!
 
2nd_Adam said:
You are too kind sister in Christ! I will break until this evening - Pacific time. Christ is sufficient for you for those who believe. Therefore, let’s rejoice in the perfect work of Christ on our behalf, prasing God in what He has done for us sinners. We are adopted children of the most high, crying Abba Father. God is our eternal Heavenly Father whom we gain eternal adoption based on the perfect work of our elder brother.

:signofcross::knight1::harp::hug1:

Catholic and Protetstant Christians worshiping God together for what He has done for us in Christ!
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I am thankful everyday for what Christ has done for me and my family. There is not enough room to tell it all. And I am thankful that He caused us to meet. God Bless you.👍
 
tweetymom said:
He knew they would.
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Just because He knew they would does not mean it was in His will for them. I don’t think it’s God’s will for anyone to end up in Hell, but people do every day. 2nd, are you saying that it’s God’s will for people to go to Hell? That He created some people with the sole purpose of suffering for eternity? That would be a very injust God, don’t you think?
 
So I guess again, Adam fails to have a response for the scripture that backs up the Catholic veiw?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture too.
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Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is sufficient? If you can’t come with that than what you believe is completely false.
 
Shannon9791 said:
Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is sufficient? If you can’t come with that than what you believe is completely false.
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In “Calvinism for my Catholic siblings”, he dismissed such questions of sola scriptura by izoid as “elementary apologetics” and pointed izoid to here and another thread. I’m quite interested if he will actually answer.
 
Shannon9791 said:
Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is sufficient? If you can’t come with that than what you believe is completely false.
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The Scriptures is sufficient to point to the One who is sufficient for us. There’s a big difference to discern in this conversation. Christ is suffiicent for us. Scripture reveals this truth to us.
 
2nd_Adam said:
The Scriptures is sufficient to point to the One who is sufficient for us. There’s a big difference to discern in this conversation. Christ is suffiicent for us. Scripture reveals this truth to us.
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You are begging the question…
 
2nd_Adam said:
The Scriptures is sufficient to point to the One who is sufficient for us. There’s a big difference to discern in this conversation. Christ is suffiicent for us. Scripture reveals this truth to us.
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Totally didn’t answer that question. I’m going to rename you Neo for the way you dodge things. Where in Scripture does it say Scripture is sufficient. You said you believe in the sufficiency of scripture, so for that to be true it has to say that somewhere in scripture.

Do you believe one can find God without the scriptures?
 
Dancelittleewok said:
In “Calvinism for my Catholic siblings”, he dismissed such questions of sola scriptura by izoid as “elementary apologetics” and pointed izoid to here and another thread. I’m quite interested if he will actually answer.
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Okay, let’s do this… We know that it is the person and work of Christ which saves sinners. So, how do we know how effectual is the work of Christ to be for those whom God has chosen (His elect)? Do we find this revelation from
  1. Scripture
  2. Scripture and the Catholic Church?
 
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